Jump to content

Fly timed waypoints


Sgt_Cyanide

Recommended Posts

Hello,

 

I'm currently flying a campaing with the hornet. I would like to follow the given flight plan time critical (see screenshot).

 

I know you can enter TOT in the UFC and I have read the manual. How do I follow the given flight plan, in time, in my campaing? I really would like to join up with my package and hit my targets on time. helpsmilie.gif

 

Can't find anything in the forum regarding this.

 

Thanks!

FP.PNG.b259ce00c7402f31ff399ea526ab8396.PNG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd start by making a majority of the legs the same airspeed. You can have a faster speed form IP to attack if you'd like, or even before the IP but changing legs by 80+kts is going to get you off by a few seconds instantly.

 

Other than that it's just hitting your time hacks. You have an ETA of each waypoint under the waypoint readout on the HSI, so a little mental math and it will come out right.

 

You have other tools to help aide you in hitting it exactly on time, but nothing is as accurate as doing a little mental math

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once you set the target waypoint and time-on-target in the waypoint sequence, the airspeed indicator on the HUD will have a carot and a line below the box. Align the carot up with the line to arrive at the target waypoint at the specified TOT as long as you fly the waypoints in the sequence.

 

Matt explains it in this video (already set at the correct timestamp)


Edited by Tholozor

REAPER 51 | Tholozor
VFA-136 (c.2007): https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3305981/
Arleigh Burke Destroyer Pack (2020): https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313752/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your help. Thought I was missing something. My conclusion is, to fly the flight plan and try to hit the waypoint time by watching the ETA of the waypoint on the HSI. The leg between IP and target I could fly by the TOT function. Is this right?

 

I have seen Matt's video, but it's only explaining to hit your target at a specific time, not the whole flight plan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am curious if anyone has this really figured out as well.

 

It is easy enough to enter HSI data page, press WPTSEQ and enter TOT. However, its either bugged, or I don't know how to enter it correctly when in the context of a non-target Push Point. I believe this is the same situation OP referring to. Wags' HARM Red Flag mission (and many others), have a marshal point with an associated push time, but the target is several waypoints later.

 

One could designate the marshal point as the TGT via, i forget the acronym, but its the right side bottom most button on HSI, but that would create other issues (if, for example, using JDAM or stand off munitions later, or auto bombing of any kind).

 

Every time I think I've got this entered correctly the HUD indicator isn't even close, I end up arriving early then orbiting. So does anyone have this one figured out?

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The HSI DDI format should have the current and required ground speed. Generally the ground speed and airspeed are different, especially at altitude. Desired TOT is entered as Zulu relative to the ZTOD clock time. There's an optional groundspeed setting which presumably also cues the pilot to arrive at fly the last leg before target at desired groundspeed.

 

You'd have to designate your desired waypoint as target. It's not doing desired time for each waypoint separately. Each sequence gets it's own target and thus target TOT.

 

No clue on the HUD cues for DTOT. They should be sanity checked against the HSI cues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The TOT function works for the entire flight plan up to the designated target waypoint. So if you set everything up, you'll see the speed carot at all times while a waypoint prior and up to the target waypoint is selected on the HSI.

 

e.g. If you have a flight plan with 8 waypoints, say waypoint 4 is the target. The computer knows the distance between waypoints 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4, so it will automatically calculate the necessary speed to arrive at waypoint 4 at the specified TOT. Waypoint 5 and up are not relevant and the carot will not be displayed.

 

If a ground speed is specified, the computer will calculate an appropriate speed for all waypoint legs for all waypoints prior to the target waypoint so that the last leg to the target waypoint will be at the specified ground speed to arrive at the specified TOT. The HSI will also display the required speed in order to stay "on-time" next to your current ground speed.

 

Example; if WP4 is TGT and you need a GSPD of 500kts at a specific TOT, the computer will say:

- From WP4 to WP5, I need to be going 500kts to arrive at TOT, therefore:

- I need to be at WP3 at a specific time, therefore:

- From WP2 to WP3, I need to be going xxxkts to arrive on time, therefore:

- I need to be at....etc. etc. repeat until flight plan is calculated and compare against aircraft's current position and speed.

 

If you need more I can work up a graphic to explain it better visually.


Edited by Tholozor

REAPER 51 | Tholozor
VFA-136 (c.2007): https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3305981/
Arleigh Burke Destroyer Pack (2020): https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313752/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

 

Example; if WP4 is TGT and you need a GSPD of 500kts at a specific TOT, the computer will say:

- From WP4 to WP5, I need to be going 500kts to arrive at TOT, therefore:

- I need to be at WP3 at a specific time, therefore:

- From WP2 to WP3, I need to be going xxxkts to arrive on time, therefore:

- I need to be at....etc. etc. repeat until flight plan is calculated and compare against aircraft's current position and speed.

 

If you need more I can work up a graphic to explain it better visually.

 

Not necessary, I got it. I went back and tested it and concur, it seemed counter intuitive to have to set a Marshall or en-route point as TGT to access TOT functions, but that's how it works. If you are then doing any kind of auto bombing you need to change it, but that is easy enough

 

 

The HSI DDI format should have the current and required ground speed. Generally the ground speed and airspeed are different, especially at altitude. Desired TOT is entered as Zulu relative to the ZTOD clock time. There's an optional groundspeed setting which presumably also cues the pilot to arrive at fly the last leg before target at desired groundspeed.

 

You'd have to designate your desired waypoint as target. It's not doing desired time for each waypoint separately. Each sequence gets it's own target and thus target TOT.

 

No clue on the HUD cues for DTOT. They should be sanity checked against the HSI cues.

 

Its just a line and carrot, line to the left, slow down, to the right, speed up. As a pilot i get the difference between TAS, IAS and GS, but remembering where each is displayed on which screen, well, I"m not quite there. The HUD i believe shows IAS? the HSI TAS on the left and GS on right? I usually check the attack radar display as its easier to read, but in any case it doesn't matter much. IAS/TAS and GS differences can be very different in civ aircraft, but generally irrelevant in DCS. The main difference between TAS and GS is due to winds aloft, which is significant at 150kts, less so at 500k. I also generally find myself pretty low, where winds are negligible.

 

I don't think you can set multiple TOT though. I was just playing with it, and as soon as you designate a new waypoint it overwrites the previous one. That would be nice though

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's done via mental math and using time to go IRL, carrot will get you to the TOT, not to an intermediate waypoint on time. In training you're taught to do a 50 minute low level flight plan using just a heading, clock, eyes, and mental math, and if you'd be surprised how many hit the target (usually 2nd to last point on the low level route) within a second. There's no substitute for the man in the box in this jet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Caret

Don't follow the HUD cue for now. I don't know if they're any good. Manual says that "required ground speed cue appears under the airspeed box". It's a caret and short vertical line. Those speed cues should be identical to the HSI numbers.

 

Are the HSI cues reasonable? They should be on the right side of the ownship symbol in the middle of the display, e.g.

260G

400G REQD

 

I may be wrong about how many TOTs there are. On second reading there may be as few as one total and not one per sequence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's done via mental math and using time to go IRL, carrot will get you to the TOT, not to an intermediate waypoint on time. In training you're taught to do a 50 minute low level flight plan using just a heading, clock, eyes, and mental math, and if you'd be surprised how many hit the target (usually 2nd to last point on the low level route) within a second. There's no substitute for the man in the box in this jet.

 

Ya I don't think so man. I am open to being proven wrong, and I have never flown a real fighter jet. I have flown many planes however, and a lot of DC's. Mental math dead reckoning navigation at 500kts hitting waypoint within a second?

 

Fwiw TOT works fine for enroute waypoints, you just need to tell the system where you want to be (not just when).

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ya I don't think so man. I am open to being proven wrong, and I have never flown a real fighter jet. I have flown many planes however, and a lot of DC's. Mental math dead reckoning navigation at 500kts hitting waypoint within a second?

 

Fwiw TOT works fine for enroute waypoints, you just need to tell the system where you want to be (not just when).

 

Yep, it’s done that way, and that well. First step is flying a ground speed divisible by 60. You will plan out the route with intermediate checkpoints in every leg with time hacks written down, then when you’re in the air it’s as simple as starting out with the right speed and heading. If you hold it you literally don’t have to make a correction. If you find yourself off you use correction methods to get back on time, which is amount of time off in seconds translated into ground speed increase or decrease from planned, and you hold that for your planned ground speed in miles per minute (360kts = 6nm/min, so 6 minutes for any 1:1 correction). So for instance if you’re 10 seconds fast at 360kts ground speed your correction is to fly 350kts for 6 minutes, or 340kts for 3 minutes, 300kts for 1 minute, etc. Its not at all difficult to do, especially with practice. Once you add in using a computer system you can literally just be like, alright next leg is supposed to take 7+45, ETA says 7+40, I’ll slow down a little and look they’re matching now. It’s difficult to actually prove without posting a YouTube video or something, so trust but verify and give it a try sometime.

 

Back to OP- Make your legs the same airspeed and divisible by 60, helps a lot with mental math and can get you started on the right track to understand how it all works


Edited by KIO
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, it’s done that way, and that well. First step is flying a ground speed divisible by 60. You will plan out the route with intermediate checkpoints in every leg with time hacks written down, then when you’re in the air it’s as simple as starting out with the right speed and heading. If you hold it you literally don’t have to make a correction. If you find yourself off you use correction methods to get back on time, which is amount of time off in seconds translated into ground speed increase or decrease from planned, and you hold that for your planned ground speed in miles per minute (360kts = 6nm/min, so 6 minutes for any 1:1 correction). So for instance if you’re 10 seconds fast at 360kts ground speed your correction is to fly 350kts for 6 minutes, or 340kts for 3 minutes, 300kts for 1 minute, etc. Its not at all difficult to do, especially with practice. Once you add in using a computer system you can literally just be like, alright next leg is supposed to take 7+45, ETA says 7+40, I’ll slow down a little and look they’re matching now. It’s difficult to actually prove without posting a YouTube video or something, so trust but verify and give it a try sometime.

 

Can? Ok. Easy? No, but more importantly why?

 

This is a dumb thing to be arguing about, but every pilot, at every level of check ride, has to demonstrate proficiency in dead reckoning navigation. Arguably its useful for systems failure and to force low hour pilots to get their heads up and eyes out, but relative to GPS it is obviously vastly inferior in accuracy. Its the same thing, heading, ground speed, time, etc. Its a pain in the ass, and besides being horribly inaccurate, it takes concentration from other tasks, puts pilots further behind the airplane. All of these systems are designed to aid in SA and decrease pilot workload.

 

The alternative is to enter TGT and TOT - literally punching in 7 numbers, 10 if you want GS, and the benefit is a clear visual representation on the HUD of where you are vs where you should be, allowing the pilot to concentrate on higher priority tasks. The system as implemented in DCS works well enough, the only inconvenience being having to change TGT on ingress, but that is minor, and only necessary if you are using AUTO delivery or another TOT.

 

OP: I would probably just manually watch your time for join and fly legs as indicated. Don't bother with TOT for join, just go to HSI data page, bring up wptseq, enter 4 for TGT, 055536 for TOT, and 580 for GS. The HUD representation won't be helpful until WP 2, but if you get a bit off speed on the decent or whatever it will give you an indication of how to adjust your speed to hit IP and target on speed and time.


Edited by sk000tch

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can? Ok. Easy? No, but more importantly why?

 

This is a dumb thing to be arguing about, but every pilot, at every level of check ride, has to demonstrate proficiency in dead reckoning navigation. Arguably its useful for systems failure and to force low hour pilots to get their heads up and eyes out, but relative to GPS it is obviously vastly inferior in accuracy. Its the same thing, heading, ground speed, time, etc. Its a pain in the ass, and besides being horribly inaccurate, it takes concentration from other tasks, puts pilots further behind the airplane. All of these systems are designed to aid in SA and decrease pilot workload.

 

The alternative is to enter TGT and TOT - literally punching in 7 numbers, 10 if you want GS, and the benefit is a clear visual representation on the HUD of where you are vs where you should be, allowing the pilot to concentrate on higher priority tasks. The system as implemented in DCS works well enough, the only inconvenience being having to change TGT on ingress, but that is minor, and only necessary if you are using AUTO delivery or another TOT.

 

OP: I would probably just manually watch your time for join and fly legs as indicated. Don't bother with TOT for join, just go to HSI data page, bring up wptseq, enter 4 for TGT, 055536 for TOT, and 580 for GS. The HUD representation won't be helpful until WP 2, but if you get a bit off speed on the decent or whatever it will give you an indication of how to adjust your speed to hit IP and target on speed and time.

 

Why? In combat you need to be able to complete the mission if a system degrades. In a modern conflict you may not have GPS coverage to update your INS, so your INS will degrade, and what happens if the INS system fails halfway through the low level route to a high priority target?

 

Military training is not civilian training. Diverting to a field and schwagging it to an alternate to satisfy the FAA requirement wouldn't cut it when you're trying to hit a TOT flying at a couple hundred feet at 360+kts. The method I described is not hard, and is incredibly accurate as previously mentioned with the example of over half of students being able to hit times with 10 seconds at the end of a 45 minute route, and a quarter able to be within 3, and that's only after a couple sims to develop the proper scan for low level flying while referencing paper charts.

 

OP asked how you do it, there's the method for all scenarios present. Some missions just saying "i want to be at the target at this time" isn't going to cut it if you have to hit certain intermediate points at a certain time, as well as most of the time your route flying would be at a certain speed then accelerate to a combat speed at the IP. There's the easy way and the right way, and many would like to know how it's actually done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paper and pencil TOT would be a real USAF skill but probably not to super high precision (within 10-20s would be acceptable operationally) like the computer makes easy. That's why they developed the computerized systems. You should be able to enter TOT for designated target in Zulu format and get on HSI following picture.

attachment.php?attachmentid=202875&d=1548269283

See where it says "449G"? That's your ground speed. If you are on waypoint sequence with subsequent waypoint designated target and TOT set then it will say "500G REQD" or whatever the calculated required groundspeed is just below it.

 

The groundspeed option is an optional value that if set will direct you to reach the waypoint immediately prior to the designated target waypoint at such a time that travel from the penultimate waypoint to the target at the desired groundspeed would arrive at the desired TOT. This is beneficial if you are picky about what speed you travel the final leg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the Viggen has a better TOT function, then the F-18? Where you can set different speeds for different legs & see if you're +/- in time on the computer in hh/mm/ss. I have a hard time to believe it....but maybe some RL F-18 driver can confirm it?

Anyways, I've tested TOT in the F-18 multiple times, with 28 WP's, GS & TOT set on WP14. And it's buggy. The auto function stops working randomly & TOT HUD Indicator disappears mysteriously 2-3 WP's prior to TOT-WP14. Even if I fly exactly on speed & on right parameters. After that even selecting next WP manually gets buggy.

i7 8700k@4.7, 1080ti, DDR4 32GB, 2x SSD , HD 2TB, W10, ASUS 27", TrackIr5, TMWH, X-56, GProR.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, to recap, TOT will get you at the target on time, but it won't get you to your waypoints before/after the target on time (i.e. ToS for push point, rally, etc.)?

 

I understand the mental math aspect of this, and have used it to fly timed waypoints in the Harrier to delivery bombs on time within 4 seconds of planned ToT, however I find it surprising that the Hornet (or Harrier) doesn't seem to have a ToS function for all waypoints. The F-16, for example, will give you a speed caret to fly all waypoints on time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it's TOT not DTOS. It will get you to the one and only one waypoint designated as target at the time designated for that target.

 

You get a second waypoint for free if you enter a desired groundspeed. This will direct you to arrive at the waypoint before the target at such a time that this final leg is at the desired GS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I haven't been able to get the ground speed setting to work as has been described above, or I don't understand it still.

 

I set up a simple 2-leg flight with each leg being about 20nm. At 350 GS it takes ~7 (6:53 in the mission editor) minutes to fly. I then experimented setting up different TOT for waypoint 2. It works perfectly if I set only TOT and fly the required GS. I hit the TOT at the TGT waypoint 2 spot on every time as long as my TOT is within the performance parameters of the aircraft.

 

However, if I set a ground speed, things don't work. For instance, I set a ground speed of 400 GS and it required me to fly about 339 GS to waypoint 1 and then the 400 GS to the TGT at waypoint 2, but I arrive 32 seconds early. I've attached a track of this test.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...