[CANNOT REPRODUCE] Force Fedback ON casue wrong stick center

[Kwiatek]

I found that with Force Feedback enabled ( Saitek Evo Force) SPitfire MKIX is only plane which got bug with center of stick which is little aft position. These casue nose up tendency which could be dumped only by push stick or full trim nose down which is bad idea. When FF is disabled stick back to center postion and everything is ok.

 

 

 

All other WW2 fighter planes ( P-51, 109 and D-9) dont have such issue and both with FF enabled and disabled stick is in center position always.

 

 

Only SPitfire is affected by these bug which casue big issue with flying FF enabled settings.

 

 

 

Here are screenshots with FF enabled and disabled in SPitfire ( joystick is free)

Edited January 30, 2019 by Kwiatek

[Kiwiknight]

Hi,

I use Microsoft FF Sidewinder 2 and the solution for this problem is to click on any cell of the Joystick in Options and click on Force Feedback Options.

Then try Invert Axis.

 

I hope it helps.

[Kwiatek]

So it seemed that bug exist not only for my Evo but also for FF Sidewinder2.

 

 

Tried these solution but it doesnt help for me - still center of stick is atf postion.

[petsild]

Just Swap Axis without invert.

 

[Kiwiknight]

Just Swap Axis without invert.

 

 

Sorry it was swap not invert as petsild says.

[Kwiatek]

Thx guys but it doesn't change anything for me. Still stick in cocpit is below center position.

[Kwiatek]

Could someone check and report these bug? Casue flying in SPitfire IX with FF actually for me is nonsense.

[hazzer]

There is a problem with ffb that is you use curves it will stick to the linear path and not the new curve meaning that the stick will be extra sensitive. They are not prepared to fix it since not enough people use ffb apparently...

The stick should move as you change the trim though, are you not experiencing that?

[Kwiatek]

Well in other DCS WW2 planes it work correctly. With FF ON P-51, D-9 or K-4 got stick ( in cocpit) at center position alligned with joystick - no problem everyhing work as it should.

 

 

 

Dunno why in SPitfire joystick is in center position but stick in cocpit is not ( is below center causing nose up). Trim work correctly in Spitfire ( with FF or without it) but it doesn't change stick position in cocpit but only trim flap on elevator surface like it should. There is nonsesne to fly with not centered stick and full trim nose down to fly straight.

 

 

 

It is obviously bug which affect only SPitfire MKIX. When FF is disabled stick and joystick is alligned in center position.

[Kwiatek]

P-51 Force Feedback ON vs SPitfire IX Force Feedback ON - Joystick in neutral position (center)

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Kwiatek

[hazzer]

Did you swap axis as previously suggested? It could be just because of the speed it is creating a slight roll or pitch effect

[DD_Fenrir]

Not a bug Kwaitek.

 

The Spitfire elevator travel is not even. It's up elevator position is 28 degrees from datum and the down 23 degrees.

 

In order to give you maximum stick deflection (and therefore resolution) on your FFB stick your full forward and aft covers the total 51 degrees. It will also be therefore biased slightly forward for the neutral VIRTUAL stick position than your muscle memory is used to.

 

Because you have a FFB stick, you have a stick with a dynamic force 0 point and this shouldn't represent a stick tensioning issue. The spitfire stick forces being so light, however, does mean that it is easy to overpower what latent trimming forces are there and for the natural fall of your arm and ingrained behaviour to want to pull the FFB back to it's physical dimensional centre.

Edited February 5, 2019 by DD_Fenrir

[Kwiatek]

Not a bug Kwaitek.

 

The Spitfire elevator travel is not even. It's up elevator position is 28 degrees from datum and the down 23 degrees.

 

In order to give you maximum stick deflection (and therefore resolution) on your FFB stick your full forward and aft covers the total 51 degrees. It will also be therefore biased slightly forward for the neutral VIRTUAL stick position than your muscle memory is used to.

 

Because you have a FFB stick, you have a stick with a dynamic force 0 point and this shouldn't represent a stick tensioning issue. The spitfire stick forces being so light, however, does mean that it is easy to overpower what latent trimming forces are there and for the natural fall of your arm and ingrained behaviour to want to pull the FFB back to it's physical dimensional centre.

 

 

I understand that elevator travel is not the same up and down.

 

But or it should be the case for all joysticks or for any. IF i disable FF my joystick got the same center postion as stick in cocpit.

 

With FF enabled stick in cocpit is little aft postion when joystick is in center postion - these casue in SPitfire huge nose up moment. IT is nonsense to fly in such way casue you have to trim maximum nose down to fly straight.

 

 

When You got joystick without FF or disable FF everything is ok.

 

 

 

For me it is bug otherwise all joysticks ( with FF or without it) should work in such way that center in joystick is not the same like stick in cocpit.

 

 

Now to fly correctly in SPitfire i have to DISABLE FORCE FEEDBACK.

 

 

 

Swap axis doesnt change situation.

[OnlyforDCS]

I understand that elevator travel is not the same up and down.

 

But or it should be the case for all joysticks or for any. IF i disable FF my joystick got the same center postion as stick in cocpit.

 

With FF enabled stick in cocpit is little aft postion when joystick is in center postion - these casue in SPitfire huge nose up moment. IT is nonsense to fly in such way casue you have to trim maximum nose down to fly straight.

 

 

When You got joystick without FF or disable FF everything is ok.

 

 

 

For me it is bug otherwise all joysticks ( with FF or without it) should work in such way that center in joystick is not the same like stick in cocpit.

 

 

Now to fly correctly in SPitfire i have to DISABLE FORCE FEEDBACK.

 

 

 

Swap axis doesnt change situation.

 

Are you sure it's not just a trim setting? Have you tried trimming the stick down? (I've got a MS FFB2 joystick and don't remember any problems with FFB in the Spitfire, admiteddly it's been quite a while since I've flown it?)

[DD_Fenrir]

I understand that elevator travel is not the same up and down.

 

But or it should be the case for all joysticks or for any. IF i disable FF my joystick got the same center postion as stick in cocpit.

 

Yes because without FFB you have no dynamic force 0 point and it will virtually move the datum of a fixed tension stick to synchronise to the virtual force 0 point.

 

Doing the same with an FFB is impossible, for the simple point that it is FFB, the physical force 0 point is dynamic and therefore must match the virtual input.

 

Your suggestion, even if it made any sense with regards to the above, would rob us other FFB users and somebody with a full scale replica spitfire stick of stick pitch resolution, which on a virtual aircraft with such sensitivity in pitch, is not something I would appreciate or thank you for.

 

With FF enabled stick in cocpit is little aft postion when joystick is in center postion

 

Yes, correctly. However you place too much stock in the importance of the physical stick position. I have already explained to you why this so, I suggest you re-read.

 

these casue in SPitfire huge nose up moment. IT is nonsense to fly in such way casue you have to trim maximum nose down to fly straight.

 

It is not nonsense; at cruise and higher power settings, the real Spitfire requires significant elevator nose down trim to keep the nose level.

 

 

For me it is bug

 

Bugs are not subject to relativistic interpretation. There is not going to be a fix for this, so wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

 

 

otherwise all joysticks ( with FF or without it) should work in such way that center in joystick is not the same like stick in cocpit.

 

Wrong, as I have explained above.

 

Now to fly correctly in SPitfire i have to DISABLE FORCE FEEDBACK.

 

Correction; to fly correctly in the Spitfire you have to choose between flying with FFB disabled and not benefiting from the feedback that it gives, or you can get over your preconceptions and adapt your style to fly with FFB on.

[Kwiatek]

Well if you fly real plane ( if You fly any) and if You get stick in center neutral postion it mean that Your controls are neutral. These it the point.

 

 

It should be work the same with our joystick center position - controls neutral.

 

There is no possible to fly correctly in Spit with FF casue You need make not willed full trimm nose down to fly straight which casue much more drag. Then You fly with stick little aft causing nose up momentum compesated by full trim nose down. These is absurd.

 

 

Without FF You need just only some degree trim nose down to fly straight at the same power settings - much less drag and more controlablity of plane.

 

 

All these planes P-51, K-4, D-9 etc got more elevator up movement then downside - so all of them got angular movement not OLNY Spitfire IX

 

 

Ex. P-51

 

The tail section control surfaces are limited to the following angular movements: elevator: +30°/-20°.

 

K-4 - up - 27 , down - 24 deg

 

All other WW2 planes in DCS got center for stick in cocpit alligned with center ( neutrum) of joystick with FF and without. Only Spitfire got aft position not centered so it is obviously bug.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Kwiatek

[NineLine]

Ask an internal team member that has FF as well, and he hasnt experienced this issue.

[Kwiatek]

Ask an internal team member that has FF as well, and he hasnt experienced this issue.

 

 

Hmm he got Saitek Evo Force?

 

 

Casue what others write here with Microsoft FFB2 they experience similar but they just make swap axis and stick back to neutral.

 

 

In my case swap axis doesnt change anything - still stick in cocpit is little aft - not centered.

 

 

Other WW2 DCS planes like P-51, K-4 and D-9 are ok for me with FF ON - stick is centered as joystick. Only SPitfire is different.

[NineLine]

I'll see if anyone on the team has an Evo, I am pretty sure it was tested with the FFB2.

[Kwiatek]

Ok thanks for help pointing the problem.

 

 

I try to find out what is the suorce of these issue.

 

 

I find some things:

 

 

- with FF OFF or any other stick without FF , joystick is in the center, stick in cocpit according to game axis window is in center - but looking from outside elevator control in SPitfire is little down position ( below neutralized) which mean that plane with controls in center got elevator little down causing level flight

 

 

- with FF ON, joystick in center, stick in cocpit according to axis control window is little aft postion - elevator surface is in neutral position - these casue that plane with joystick in center huge nose up momentum.

 

 

It looks like that flying with stick without FF ( or with FF diseabled ) is much easier casue joystick in center means that you got elevator little down postion and straight flying without huge nose up momentum.

[312_JS]

Have exactly the same issue with my new (for me) MSFF2.

It's extremely annoying, because 1. I have to have a full nose down trim and 2. If I shift the centre of the stick, it registers as an axis input value and therefore the curvature setting on the axis is not symetrical.

[=AFJ=JaMz]

This IS an issue and it's getting infuriating being told it's not..

 

I have a G940 FF setup and this issue only happens in the Spit, there is no option to adjust this. I have the Pony, Dora and K4 with absolutely no troubles with my stick or FFB, I can fly each hands free and perfectly trimmed.

 

You cannot 'just turn of FFB' as that is the spring basically so have you tried flying without any centre spring? Let go of the stick and see what happens, this again renders the elevator trim useless also, so this is not an option..

 

Some FFB users seem to negate this issue by swapping Axis, as the OP has stated this doesn't work with all FFB sticks and it's definately not working with mine..

 

This is an issue and I'm not buying another stick just to fly the Spit..

 

As the warbirds become more popular this issue will arrise more, will we have the same issue with the Corsair or Mossie or when another ffb stick hits the market??

 

Please please have an option that allows us to centre the stick when on the ground that 'could' negate any further issues down the line with new modules..

 

We cannot fly the Spit as it is intended, we cannot trim the plane correctly and given the constant forward pressure needed to keep the nose down, it makes gunnery, landing and take off harder than what it should be..

 

This needs to be fixed please.

Edited January 9, 2021 by =AFJ=JaMz

[=AFJ=JaMz]

@NineLineYou can clearly see my stick in game settings is central but look at the Spit 'control input' ingame', I appreciate its not that clear but you can see the diamond is below the centre, You can also see with the third party software that the stick has no faults and is completely central.. It is pulling the nose up and this is the issue and its a big one, if you ease up with that forward pressure on stick, the Spit will just loop, its hideous.

 

The elevator trim does nothing, it has hardly no effect. this is the ONLY warbird that does this and even the F18 doesn't do this... this WILL come up again either with new modules OR another ffb stick that hits the market.. NO software can irradiate this,you support FFB which is appreciated with the trimmer and shake options, so please include an option to centre/sync stick in cockpit with an ingame option, as this plane is unplayable for some of us or at the very least, its making it harder than it should be and is intended to be.

 

Same stick, same FFB settings and you can see that with the Dora, K4 and the Pony, the diamond is where it should be on ground in relation to where the stick sits when centered, there is a clear difference between them and the Spit.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by =AFJ=JaMz
added text

[312_JS]

 

[=AFJ=JaMz]

6 hours ago, 312_JS said:

 

Thanks.. Hopefully this will be addressed before we experience this with other upcoming modules also, personalty unless I can 'TRY' before I buy on the Mossie or any future module, I wont be purchasing them at the risk of this happening again... Me having to buy another non FFB stick shouldn't be the answer, considering FFB IS supported.

Edited January 10, 2021 by =AFJ=JaMz