DCS, AV-8B Harrier, CCRP Dive Toss.

[whiteladder]

No, that's how it computes the ballistic solution (I posted that above actually).

 

Not how it knows where the ground is when you slew a box on it.

 

 

Does it need to know where the Ground is? Isn`t it just using the angle rate change from the HUD TD the same way it would if the DMT was providing the angle rate?

Edited July 19, 2019 by whiteladder

[Harlikwin]

Does it need to know where the Ground is? Isn`t it just using the angle rate change from the HUD TD the same way it would if the DMT was providing the angle rate?

 

So if you know your position in 3d space (X,Y,Z) and you want to create another point in 3D space. You need to have 2 angles/azimuths and a distance. The ARBS gives you all 3. If you just put a designator box on your hud how you have your 2 angles but no distance. your target can exist anywhere along the line defined by those 2 azimuths. IF you know where the ground is that line will intersect it at some point and you now have your distance.

[TLTeo]

If you update the position of your designated point over time (say, for as long as you hold your pickle button and the CCRP symbology is up) you can triangulate and solve for a distance. Also, you can get a rough altitude estimate from e.g. GPS or INS.

 

 

I'm not saying that's how it happens, just that there may be ways to do it.

[Harlikwin]

Yeah you can do that in theory (basically this is what the arbs does), but thats not what hollbeach is doing. Its a one click target designate/bombing solution.

[Holbeach]

Yeah you can do that in theory (basically this is what the arbs does), but thats not what hollbeach is doing. Its a one click target designate/bombing solution.

 

 

That's what the INS/MC combo can do, independantly of the ARBS.

 

 

I have DMT/ARBS turned off. This gives, without moving the mode selector, INS without TV. Move selector fwd it's the same, so it's the default position.

 

 

This will give me GCIP (GPS CIP). INS will give me a posn/flight path. Baro alt or RALT Radar alt (RCIP), a height above target alt.

Waypoint target designation, will give target alt from lat long posn. GCIP cross will do the same*

Target alt is the keystone of the triangle.

 

 

MC can work out the ballistics for a hit solution and release.

 

 

ARBS/DMT can directly lock the target or ground and is therefore more accurate

 

(TBCont or altered).

..

[Harlikwin]

Yeah, you can get the "position" from alt and an angle, but its fairly inaccurate. In a lot of ways, you are basically recreating WW2 era "precision" with a slightly smaller B17 :). Mianly since your target alt isn't at ground level and depending on the terrain and the accuracy of your altimeter it can be hundreds of feet above or below ground level.

[Holbeach]

DCS, Harrier, 14 Mk82, GCIP to GAUT, INS bombing.

 

 

My Reference Training mission. Supplement to previous video. Basic INS bombing, alternative to Toss Bombing. No DMT. GPS alt. Crimea. Harrier. Take off from Hermes with 14 Mk82 slicks. Target, 1 Ural truck loaded with a high value asset, which MUST be destroyed., protected by 5 Strella 13 and 3 Igla SAMs. A shallow dive drop, release at least 13000' alt. is required to avoid SAMs.

 

 

 

 

..

Edited July 24, 2019 by Holbeach

[Captain Orso]

Why are you accelerating with 25° NOZ instead of 10° and then rotating at launch?

[Holbeach]

Never mind.

Ignore the take off. It's for my purposes only.

 

 

..

Edited July 23, 2019 by Holbeach

[Captain Orso]

0° NRAS is not allowed on the ground. The exhaust would hit the flaps and damage them.

 

The idea is exactly that you DON'T have a constant setting. While on the deck you want to realize as much acceleration as possible, which is only possible at 10° nozzle setting.

 

When nozzle rotation is executed on a jump start, I have never read, but I imagine just before reaching the jump. Why? because you would otherwise be accelerating into the jump, which would be a huge strain on the undercarriage, especially on the nose wheel.

 

If the Harrier leaves the deck through NRAS alone, before reaching the jump, all the better. If not, the strain on the undercarriage should be as small as possible.

 

But, whatever turns you on.

[Holbeach]

What turns me on!

 

HMS Hermes and HMS Bulwark, task force Black Sea.

..

Edited July 28, 2019 by Holbeach

[Holbeach]

For future reference.

 

 

I've made a simple scenario, to find out what does what to what on the ocean, centred around the Harrier and HMS Hermes.

 

 

Carrier Channel Dash. (Great Escape) mission.

 

The port of Mykolaiv, Ukraine, has been surrounded by Russian forces and the coalition fleet has to depart down channel and exit through a narrow entrance, to escape.

 

The Russians cobble up a mottly force, of anything they can find. to try to stop them

 

Nothing fancy, just a basic look, to find out how things work.

 

Carriers: Hermes (Harrier), Albion, (helicopters) and Tarawa (Harrier).

 

2 Cruisers, 4 Destroyers, 2 rescue helicopters, are escorts. 2 Harrier groups (Tarawa plus 1 airbourne), 1 Mi8 group (Albion), plus 1 player aircraft.

 

 

1 Destroyer, 1 Frigate, 16 Su-24, tanks and artillery are red attackers.

 

US Harriers, from Tarawa, cover the North bank, UK Harriers, (air start), the South bank.

MI-8 hit the undefended truck convoy.

It takes an hour to cover the channel.

Not everything goes to plan, but it's a learning curve.

 

Observations:

Fleet is grouped to maintain constant speeds (25 kts), but this means also that, if a ship is disabled, the fleet will reduce to its speed, down to 0, untill it sinks.

This means that, fleet can't make the entrance before Russian reinforcements arrive. I might have to go back to individual routes.

Made 3 carriers as a group and the rest individual. Works well.

Increasing attacking aircraft numbers, will penetrate to the fleet, but all will have shed their loads, due to strong SAM defence.

Blue on blue will occure with Harpoon and SM2 missiles. A Harpoon hit on the carrier, will destroy all Harriers.

Carrier will sink if shore batteries are not reduced by air attack, prior to passing.

Replays seem to be working OK.

Returning Harriers might try to land on the Bulwark. This will cause the ship to stop. Put ship in centre of group, has stopped this happening.

 

If a target remains, Harriers will strafe (forever) with single shots, which will always miss. (Removed gun pods).

 

All red attacking aircraft are ineffective, due to load shedding when attacked by missiles. (See below).

Remove escorts and no carriers will survive. All red aircraft will attack with anti ship missiles. CAS doesnt work on ships, only anti ship loads.

 

2 Cruisers, no Destroyers. 1 Carrier, 1 Cruiser, will survive. More would have survived if the Carriers hadn't been grouped.

Added Moskva, approaching from South. Added Ticonderoga for a head to head.

All P-500 SSN12 Sandbox shot down by SM-2. All 8 Harpoon hit Moskva. T starts gun fight. T wins fight. It takes a lot of H to do any damage.

Moskva has no defence against cruise missiles and is therefore at a disadvantage.

 

 

Helicopters landing on Albion are excellent, visually. Harriers on Tarawa, poor.

Harriers may prioritize targets before attacking designated.

Battle changes at every play, without my input.

 

Removed Ticonderoga. Moskva started Grumble attack, from South, at about 25nm. Killed 3 Harriers before being destroyed by 21 Harpoon. This 1 change had a dramatic effect on the overall outcome. 1 hr 35 min.

More dramatic, was moving 16 SU25T anti ship closer, to 7 nm. This had the effect of catching the fleet with its pants down, while it concentrated on the Destroyers. AShip missiles were launched before a decent SAM protection was organised. Hermes lost. Bulwark and Tarawa reduced to 12kt.

 

16 Su25T: 1 Carrier sunk, heavy damage but a slide show due to heavy smoke. (Wrong. See below).

12 Su25T: Heavy damage to all carriers but none sunk. Best.

08 Su25T; No missiles shot. No damage.

4 Harrier on Moskva from 7nm, scored 10 AGM 65G hits and disabled SAMs. 12 Harrier scored 18 hits for a kill.

Delay N bank artillery 10 min or Harriers will attack them first.

Tank AP has no effect on carriers only HE.

 

Air attack centered on carriers, might reduce their speed, which means escorts forge on ahead, leaving them behind.

This just isn't the done thing. We all stick together.

Full grouping is back for all 9 ships. Air attack has less effect, but damage varies with each start, especially to number of Harriers launched.

Also affected is the fleet speed, which can be reduced to 12 kts or less by damaged ships.

Harriers now return to Tarawa when board cleared of reds.

Removed gun pods, to prevent continuous single shot attacks, which prevents return to Tarawa.

Went onboard "Obratzsovvy" 1976, Portsmouth.

Red attack DD from astern, where there is SM 2 shadow. This gives them their chance to launch missiles, without shedding.

 

 

Pyotr Velikiy. Kills H. Too strong for this job. (26 AGM 65G, to kill it).

Neustroshimi. Kills H.

Grisha. No kill H.

Molniya. Too tough for its size. 77 127/76 mm shells and 2 Harpoon to kill.

Rezka. 6 AGM 65G to kill.

Moskva. 18 AGM 65G to kill.

DD 052C. HHQ9 kills Mavs. YJ 62 cruise killed by SM2. 34 H hits and 39 127mm didn't kill it. First few H hit, then the majority, passed over the deck and close into the sea.

Albion. 31 KH 29L to kill.

 

 

Changed UK to AGM-65G. US remains as 12 Mk 82.

Added some lightweight convoy SAM. (removed)

The addition of 1 23mm AAA to the truck convoy, decimated the 4 Mi-8 attackers, without any loss to themselves. (Removed).

 

Dead aircraft remain on Tarawa runway, preventing returning landing. Should be cleared away.

Delay red airstrike 2 min to allow blue departure. This had the effect of allowing the orderly return of all jets.

12 Su25T aren't the cause of a huge frame drop during the attack, but I think it's the mass of AAA the ships throw up, that is the cause.

 

Low frame rate/graphics card, revelation/cure.

I've spent hours and hours, trying to find a cure to the low, 7fps, rate at the height of the initial air attck on the carriers, which is crucial to this mission.

Making alterations and watching the action from the sidelines, made no difference at all. AAA was reducing the frames to an unacceptable level.

MSI showed the card was simply doing nothing!

Then I accidentally left the throttle open and my jet fell into the sea.

Bugger me sideways, the frame rate was now back to normal. Even with SSAA back on, the lowest I see is mid 20s at the height of the action, with 120 max.

All it needed, was to move my Harrier off the Hermes, to kick the card to into life.

Turn off labels in F10.

Artillery has a longer range than ships, in an exchange.

Harriers trying to return to Albion, will lock in the sky.

 

 

Player on Hermes, chooses whatever he decides is the most important threat, then after attack, return to Hermes to re-arm and go again.

Get off the deck quickly, or the initial air strike might finish your day.

 

Start points.

Ground. AGM 65G.

Hermes. AGM 65G.

Albion. (Mi-8). Rockets/guns.

Tarawa. 12 Mk 82.

 

..

Edited August 16, 2019 by Holbeach

[Holbeach]

Frame rate doubles, when Harrier leaves the deck.

 

Maybe a Hermes only effect.

 

No problem, when you get a benefit.

..

Edited August 16, 2019 by Holbeach

[Holbeach]

DCS, Carrier Great Escape mission.

 

 

 

..

Edited August 16, 2019 by Holbeach

[Holbeach]

Carrier, Channel Dash, mission.

 

Player on Hermes, chooses whatever he decides is the most important threat, then after attack, return to Hermes to re-arm and go again.

Get off the deck quickly, or the initial air strike might finish your day.

 

Deleted and Start again in a different location due to flickering terrain.

 

..

Edited September 5, 2019 by Holbeach

[Holbeach]

DCS, Harrier, Dive Toss, 4nm, 5nm, revision.

 

I want to keep my hand in, with some toss bombing practice.

 

 

 

 

Toss bombing, was used in the Falklands, after low level attacks on Stanley, resulted in losses from Manpads and AAA. This is a quick revision with PUPs at 4 and 5 nm. 3g pull ups result in a long string with 12 x 1 at 20' Mk82. 4g would give a more side spread effect. 2 Mig 21s are the target on an airfield at 591' AGL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

Edited September 5, 2019 by Holbeach

[Holbeach]

DCS, Harrier, GAU-12, versus, T-90.

(Made for experimenting with some sound dubs).

 

The makers of this 25 mm cannon, recommended attack profile, (AV-8A), for a T-62 tank is, 5 deg dive, shooting between 3000' and 2000' slant range, at 500 kts. with 0.5 or 1 second burst. I vary it between 5 and 15 deg to see the effect on a T-90. Tanks require a minimum 94% damage, to be killed by a gun.

 

 

 

 

..

Edited May 1, 2020 by Holbeach

[Holbeach]

A truck requires, 1 damage hit. BTR, 4 hits. T-55, 20 hits. T80, 25 hits. T-72/T-90, 30 hits, for a kill, using the GAU-12U.

 

These vehicles have simple hit boxes.

 

In real life, the T72/80/90, even if damaged, can't be destroyed by a 25mm gun shooting into the sides.

 

I scored damage on the T-90, shooting from 2 miles.

 

DCS has the best quality aircraft available, but the target end needs a serious looking at.

 

 

..

Edited May 1, 2020 by Holbeach

[Harlikwin]

I dunno, depends on what you mean "kill" IRL. If you are coming in from the top rear and get the engine/fuel etc on fire I'm pretty sure thats a kill, and really from that aspect it should be possible to hit the ammo stowage inside the turret, with resultant "pop the top" effect.

 

But yes, the target models really need an upgrade.

 

Even a simple front/side/top/rear model would be better, with a tag of which weapons can penetrate it from that aspect, else no effect. At least for KE weapons, I guess a 500lb bomb direct hit is gonna ruin a tank from most angles.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Harlikwin

[Captain Orso]

I may be mistaken, but I believe DCS does take the aspect and angel of attack into account, but does just have a solid hit-box.

 

ED is working on a completely new damage model for aircraft. I don't recall hearing, but maybe they will carry it over to ground vehicles as well, some time.

[Holbeach]

There was a DCS post on the damage modelling of vehicles, some time ago when it was revamped. I don't know where it is.

 

 

At the moment it feels like a totting up system, rather than a critical box area hit system.

With a design max penetration of 2.5 inches, from the 25mm AP round, @ 3000' max, I think it is doing too well, especially as it was deigned for light armour.

If you put the target strength up, it would probably upset other factors.

 

 

More target detail, would help. Or maybe the shells are too strong.

 

 

Manufactures recommended profile to pierce a medium tank armour, with GAU 12U cannon. 5 deg dive, 500 kts, shoot at 3000', stop at 2000', to penetrate 2.5 inches. Distances are marked on ground as in the real trials. First run is too shallow. 2nd run is about right..

Target is T-55. 90% damage is required for a kill.

 

 

 

 

..

Edited August 30, 2019 by Holbeach

[Harlikwin]

Most of the time I'm not gunning tanks anyhow, they get CBU's GBU's or Mavs. And the gun seems about right for light armor and vehicles. And yes I'm aware they are improving the damage system, and then hopefully after that they can fix the bomb damage (or maybe thats already right)

[Holbeach]

I never use this gun for tanks, it's too inefficient for the job, but it's been interesting finding out what it can do.

With a kill at 94%+, it's probably how they control its use on heavy tanks.

Bombs are about 60%.

A T-55 can be killed in 1 pass at 90% with 20 hits, which is top of its usefull power, but it's difficult to achieve.

 

Perfect for artillery, APCs and the like out to 12000'.

Mavs are my prefered weapon for mobile tanks.

 

 

..

[Holbeach]

For my reference.

 

Let's have a close look at the, Long Range air launched Anti Ship missile, (ai aircraft), threat to the Hermes/Harrier fleet.

 

 

Kh 31A. (Anti Ship).

 

launched at 25nm, 250', will accelerate to its max speed under booster, then maintain its speed by ramjet at 1264 kts and sea skimming height. It can be shot by SM-2 or CIWS guns or hit target at full speed. Warhead 90 kg.

 

Kh 31P. (Anti Radar).

 

launched at 55 nm @ 40000' (max), from Su 24M, will accelerate to 1800 kt under booster, but the Ramjet engine does not start and therefore it will decelerate and reduce speed to a low terminal 350/550 kt, but will always hit the target, (if in range). It is completely immune to defences, which will never shoot at it, (invisible). 8 shots 8 hits, every time.

 

Launched at up to 70 nm, from a Su 34, it has a completely different profile. Unlike the Su 24 attack missile, which keeps to a high aItitude before diving on the target, (correct), it uses a less efficient direct approach, (LOS), and because it dosn't have an engine running, will hit the sea after 40nm. Launched at 40000' it will just about make the target from 40 nm. Launched from a shorter range and low level, it will loft, by which time, most of its energy is lost, then dive on target.

 

Conclusion. Kh 31P, is buggered, but still usable.

 

These missiles are designed for DD/FF ships and pose little threat to HMS Hermes. 34 hits produced slight damage.

 

 

KH 22, Kitchen.

 

This 6 tonne beauty, is a threat to any ship.

 

With a 1 tonne warhead, (same as a Doodle Bug), it takes 8 to destroy the Hermes, or 1 to disable and 2 to destroy a DD/FF.

The Su-23M3 can't maintain 40000' with 2 on. 32000' is more comfortable, with a launch at 160nm.

It will loft to 80000' and travel at 2008 kt (locked), before diving on to the target.

It is easily destroyed by SM-2 or CIWS.

 

 

..

Edited October 2, 2019 by Holbeach

[Holbeach]

Kh-35, (misnamed Kh-31A) AS-20 Kayak, Russian Anti Ship Cruise Missile. (For my reference).

 

 

At 458kt, it's much slower than it should be and its small size makes it a bit puny. Easily destroyed by SM-2 or CIWS, the target needs to be swamped in order to get one through.

Designed to pierce the target sides with a HE/frag charge, after sea skimming at 15 mtr, it shouldn't terminal loft, like this one does, it should descend to a lower alt.

DD/FF are its targets, with a 145kg warhead.

The Kh-35 is smaller than the similar Harpoon, but it feels like they are sharing the same FM.

 

 

 

Kh-41 Moskit. (Sunburn)

 

 

4.5 tonne, Anti-ship, supersonic cruise missile.

 

Powered by ramjet at 972kt (too slow) sea skimming 250' (too high), increase to 1393 kt (M2.1) , around 30' ASL terminal. Launched by Molnia from 20nm, (well below the RL version), in this case, 3 hit and 1 was shot down by Seacat. Hermes damaged, but not enough to slow it down. Devastating against DD/FF. 300 kg penetrator warhead.

 

Can be destroyed by SM-2 and CIWS.

 

..

Edited September 12, 2019 by Holbeach