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Is it possible to break the lock of an incoming R-77?


atsmith6

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I've been practicing a series of 1 v 1 engagements starting at 40nm mainly to get my switchology into muscle memory and the timelines worked out (love you Tacview!) and have hit a little stumbling block. I've noticed that if I have an R-77 launched against the F-18 then nothing I do seems to be able to affect the lock. Chaff seems completely ineffective. I can literally dump them all in a single program at 0.25 second intervals and it's as if no chaff was ever launched.

 

Right now it feels like the only option against that missile is to

 

1) Assume it was fired the second you reach 11NM (I use the Rift and I can't see the smoke from the launch at that distance).

2) Turn out cold and run immediately.

 

Essentially unless I'm mistaken it's almost impossible to force a merge against an opponent armed with the R-77. I feel I'm missing something here and my ignorance is holding me at a big disadvanage.

 

Any advice will be appreciated...

 

EDIT: I kept typing flare when I meant chaff. Tired after multiple merge failures... fixed now


Edited by atsmith6
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Chaff is really only effective if you notch. Volume of chaff makes no difference, as you demonstrated. Chaff is not a magic, make the missile miss, button. It really only works if you turn and fly 90 degrees tangent to the face of the Radar (missile or plane firing depending on the missile), and drop 2 or 3 chaff as you approach the 90. The R-77 will lose you and go for the chaff if you're flying 90 degrees to the missile, then you can re-engage. Tangent to the face of the missile or radar emitter means any direction, by the way... could be turn right 90 degrees, could be aim for the deck... any orientation that puts your velocity vector a 90 degree tangent to the plane of the radar face.

 

Typically, at least a shallow dive helps in notching, because then you also have background (ground clutter) working in your favor too.


Edited by Banzaiib
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Yes that's what I thought and what I've been trying. Beaming missiles like the R-27 makes this work every time even without chaff or forcing the opponent to change heading with a counter shot. But the R-77 gets me every time whether I'm beaming 90° level, 90° nose high, 90° nose low, using chaff, not using chaff. Effectively I can't get the lock to break and the only option remaining is to drag away. This is only a problem because the enemy can cause the AIM-120 lock to break with as little as a jink and a few chaff. This puts me at a serious disadvantage. Now I'm at 16NM dragging out and that's way too close to turn back in (12 NM after reversing direction) if I have no way of fighting the R-77.

 

And so I'm at a loss. Thanks for replying. Very much appreciated!

 

PS, on an interesting side note, I've shot down a couple of R-77s now by turning in and shooting a 120 in maddog mode. To my surprise (I only realised while watching the Tacview) the 120 acquired the R-77 and killed it.


Edited by atsmith6
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There isn't a magic solution that works in every possible scenario, but there are some best practice you should follow. Keep the emitter at 90 degrees (correcting your heading if the emitter change its) and fly close to the ground are definitely the best thing you could do to break a lock.

 

There are a couple of things you should always keep in mind: whenever the missile lose the target, it'll start to fly ballistic in a straight line looking for a new target and getting closer to the last tracked position. If you don't leave its field of view there are chances it starts tracking you again, turning on your tail and reducing its Angle Off Tail.

That's what the chaffs are for, when you manage to break a lock or the emitter is struggling track you they should be used to give you enough time to leave the tracked area.

 

Anyway, there are situation when trying to break the lock is not even your best option. Missiles' engines have a really short burn time and, unless your ECM is on, missiles' tracking algorithm always try to keep their flight path in lead pursuit to manage the energy efficiently (they always try to predict the impact point for your current flight path). So if you force them to keep changing their direction while they are gliding, you can bleed all their energy before they get close.

 

One last thing you should keep in mind is: in most cases you can outmaneuver a missile, so a last second hard turn in the right direction, with a couple of chaffs if needed, could save the day.

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Thanks for the response Zarbas. That's all very sound advice and much appreciated. I will keep trying to fight the R-77 using various such manoeuvres and Tacview until I either find a weakness or decide to give up. As mentioned the problem is not defending against the missile. Turning out quickly enough means the missile quickly runs out of energy. The specific problem I am trying to solve (and it may indeed be a problem without a solution) is how to force a merge against a Mig-29 armed with the DCS interpretation of the R-77 missile. To do this I am hoping a way exists that can be discovered, learned, and mastered. Might not be possible but if a way exists I hope to find it.

 

Again, thanks for the response. Much appreciated.

 

On a side note, does the F-18 RWR recognise and report the R-77? I get a lock tone, and then the tracking tone from the fighter when it's fired. However if I force the opponent to turn out and defend against my own missile then in the last few moments before the missile hits the RWR is silent, however Tacview shows that the missile is still tracking. Essentially it appears that the radar emissions from the R-77 are not detected by the F-18 RWR.

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This is interesting and I never noticed it, I'll test it tonight and I'll let you know.

 

I should also double check which models of the R-77 are modelled in DCS world, because some R-77 variants have a terminal infrared homing seeker instead of the active radar seeker, and that would be a total different story.

 

Anyway, can I ask why are you trying to force a merge? It would be really difficult to merge in a real combat situation and while no one should underestimate a R-77, R-27 are the real threat. Your best chance is to take advantage of your better avionics and win in BVR. Without considering piloting skills, he'll have a slight advantage in a knife fight.


Edited by Zarbas
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There should be an M symbol in the RWR indicating the R77 once its Pitbull and tracking you.

So you have 2 Ways of defeating a missile while keeping the distance close and not going cold:

You either go lower than the missile and notch it(ECM off!)

Or you drive it to into the ground, be diving down quickly once the missile is close, so its lead pursuit lets it crash into the ground.

After that you turn back in and do it all over again, then maybe you get so close to each other that you dont see the other plane on the radar, that you have a merge.

The Art of Warfare

https://tawdcs.org/

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This is interesting and I never noticed it, I'll test it tonight and I'll let you know.

 

I should also double check which models of the R-77 are modelled in DCS world, because some R-77 variants have a terminal infrared homing seeker instead of the active radar seeker, and that would be a total different story.

 

Oh I had no idea this is the case. I was under the impression that it was radar guidance all the way in. If it converts to IR then that would explain it.

 

Anyway, can I ask why are you trying to force a merge? It would be really difficult to merge in a real combat situation and while no one should underestimate a R-77, R-27 are the real threat. Your best chance is to take advantage of your better avionics and win in BVR. Without considering piloting skills, he'll have a slightly advantage in a knife fight.

 

Yes of course you're welcome to ask. The reason is that part of the fun I get out of the simulator is learning first how the various opposing weapon systems work and then whether I can find a way to defeat it. I have got very used to the R-27 and 27ER and can get down to the merge every time using simple notches and cranks and one or two AIM-120s at 20 then 14NM which forces his nose out beyond the tracking angle. I never turn out beyond radar angles so could probably do the same with the AIM-7 but haven't tried so might be wrong.

 

With regard the R-77 the first challenge was to learn to defend against it when fired at about 11NM. This was simple. Just turn away and let it run out of juice. The second and more interesting problem to solve is how to defeat it without getting into a situation where the enemy is about 16NM behind you and pointing at you. Given how easily the DCS AIM-120 is evaded this can happen from time to time and makes turning back dangerous. Having a way to even the odds and defend against the R-77 just as the enemy Mig-29S is defeating the AIM-120 would also be satisfying.

 

In short: It's a difficult problem to solve and uncovering any weakness in the DCS interpretation of the R-77 will be both fun and satisfying, assuming one exists.

 

Regarding winning a merge against the Mig-29S, if you're fighting the enemy AI it's not that hard. Fight with a hard nose down turn in while spiralling down immediately after merging. This is where you burn energy for angles. He will counter with the same manoeuvre (AI is very predictable). The F-18 wins or matches the the angle fight at this stage depending on how well you fly it (I'm speaking DCS not RW). Once you get to the deck manage your energy for a max continuous rate turn at anything from 280-320 KIAS on the deck. The enemy fails to gain angles and soon gives up and turns out a bit for a zoom climb. At this point you just continue around the corner and then bank up in one hard pull. This will give you sufficient parameters for an AIM-9 launch (any variant though the X happens very quickly) and he's dead. I've obviously ignored keeping eyes on him for an R-73 launch so you can counter immediately with tons of flares but assume you are already aware of that and other similar considerations. This tends to work even if you mess up and hit the deck such that the enemy has up to about a 30° angle advantage.

 

It's not so simple against a human pilot as they're not predictable like the AI is (and I'm admittedly not wonderful vs well practiced people, though I tend to hold my own a little under half the time). If they are good at energy management you're in trouble. If not and you are then you're going to win most times.

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There should be an M symbol in the RWR indicating the R77 once its Pitbull and tracking you.

 

Is there meant to be an audio warning too? The reason I ask is that mine is silent in the terminal phase if the enemy aircraft turns out. I don't remember seeing an M last night but I could be mistaken. I will check again tonight.

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@OP...

Remember that the RWR also has blind spots (true for all aircraft) and takes time to update (something to remember in the F-18)... so the azimuth can be a bit off when you are turning.

 

 

As for human opponents. MOST, but not all, Red fliers like to fire off an ET at long ranges. It won't give you a launch warning, and is passive (IR) guided. Use the Mk I eyeball to spot that launch smoke!

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