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MiG-29K -> can someone explain me the logic?


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How come MiG-29K with its more advanced avionics, radar and weapons system, smaller and more suitable for carrier, was rejected in favour of Su-27K with its outdated avionics, weapons and it's huge like 747???

 

I just read some articles on 29K on globalsecurity.org..

 

Could someone please explain me the logic behind this decision???

 

Thanks!

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How come MiG-29K with its more advanced avionics, radar and weapons system, smaller and more suitable for carrier, was rejected in favour of Su-27K with its outdated avionics, weapons and it's huge like 747???

 

I just read some articles on 29K on globalsecurity.org..

 

Could someone please explain me the logic behind this decision???

 

Thanks!

 

Well it wasn't really rejected mcnab - it was actually approved for production along with the Su-33 and ordered by the Soviet ministry of defence in 1991.

 

But the collapse of the Soviet Union meant that funding for the carrier programme ceased and only one carrier(the kuz) was completed while 3 other projected ones were cancelled - same with the MiG-29K order.

 

As to why it was the Su-33 that made it through to production, I can think of two main reasons:

 

First the Soviet "aircraft carrying cruiser" concept is different to that of the US carriers - apart from a significant ASW role, it also includes a heavy onboard SSM armament, so the main role of its airwing is airdefence of the surface group and providing airsuperiority in the area of operation. For this specific task the Su-33 is arguably the better platform exactly due to its size:

 

- it carries more internal fuel(better equipped for long CAP flights)

- can accomodate a larger and thus more powerful radar.

- has more weapons stations and can carry more long range a2a missiles.

 

The second reason could be that although the airframe of the Su-33 is very different from that of its Su-27 basis, the onboard systems are not.....the WCS is all but identical to that of the Su-27, so at a time where funding was extremely scarse the Su-33 was the lesser complex(thus cheaper) platform to induct to service as compared with the MiG-29K - which on the other hand, is very different and far more complex than both the baseline MiG-29 and the Su-33.

 

- JJ.

JJ

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Thanks for answer Alfa!

I didn't know 29K had actually weaker radar? Well yeah, the size I guess makes a difference there betwen Flanker and MiG.

 

As for its role, well, if Kuz is really that pumped up with SSM and can do all that stuff, having AA oriented fighter would make some sense.

 

US carriers are (I believe) a lot less equipped in terms of SSM doctrine and let the airforce do the beating.

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Thanks for the reply Alfa!

I didn't know 29K had actually weaker radar? Well yeah, the size I guess makes a difference there betwen Flanker and MiG.

 

Yes "weaker" due to size, but much more advanced :) .

 

As for its role, well, if Kuz is really that pumped up with SSM and can do all that stuff, having AA oriented fighter would make some sense.

 

Yeah 12 Granits is a serious SSM punch :) .

 

US carriers are (I believe) a lot less equipped in terms of SSM doctrine and let the airforce do the beating.

 

US carriers have no SSM armament at all and even their escort cruisers/destroyers are much lesser equipped in this area than the Kuz itself - like you said, they are relying on their multirole airwings for anti-shipping duties, but then they can muster quite a punch too.....not least due to the number of aircraft the ships can accomodate :) .

JJ

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Was Mig-29K able to carry ARH (R-77) missiles?

 

More powerfull radar on Su-33 does not do any good if you don't have a missile that can use the power of that radar. Although, I am looking for evidence of Su-33 carrying R-27EA missiles.

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Was Mig-29K able to carry ARH (R-77) missiles?

 

More powerfull radar on Su-33 does not do any good if you don't have a missile that can use the power of that radar. Although, I am looking for evidence of Su-33 carrying R-27EA missiles.

 

I love that attitude.

 

Me personally, I've been looking for evidence of the affair between Claudia Schiffer and Anna Kournikova for years - no success yet, but I know it happened. It's only a matter of time.

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Was Mig-29K able to carry ARH (R-77) missiles?

 

Yes and "long burn" versions of R-27(-RE and -TE) + varies guided air-to-surface munitions - such as Kh-31A anti-ship missile :)

 

More powerfull radar on Su-33 does not do any good if you don't have a missile that can use the power of that radar.

 

Thats what the R-27RE was made for :) .

 

Although, I am looking for evidence of Su-33 carrying R-27EA missiles.

 

For heavens sake Hajduk! :D - you will never find such evidence because it isn't there to be found.

JJ

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Was Mig-29K able to carry ARH (R-77) missiles?

 

More powerfull radar on Su-33 does not do any good if you don't have a missile that can use the power of that radar. Although, I am looking for evidence of Su-33 carrying R-27EA missiles.

 

Hajduk bro, I dont know from where you pump that never endening energy for R-27EA, like your life is depending on it :-)

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Hajduk bro, I dont know from where you pump that never endening energy for R-27EA, like your life is depending on it :-)

 

Yes, it has been superseeded anyway. Instead of bringing the R-27EA wich is already a dead program, to any current Su-27's config as they are now, it is much easier to use a more modern RVV-AE into those planes by upgrading their radars. Wich is being donne though, slowly.

 

You wouldnt want to be stuck with scores of Su-27S with R-27EA's. SU-27SM+RVV-AE are much much better. Believing what has been described in publications the SM can do true multi engage as oposed to the S variant with a missile with older SARH seeker technology.

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But than again, if your R-27-non-As are as old and illmaintained as they are, and you don't have money to refurbish all your planes, why not just give them a gift of an upgraded seeker (and controller) that is compatible with both your planes and your existing missiles.

 

And if RuAf wouldn't be satisfied with that, I'm sure there are many who would. So why aren't we seeing this? One reason could be that the available seeker isn't that much compatible. Other that people don't got money even for that.

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Being old missiles the R-27's are in desperate need of replacement. The EA seeker may already be heavily obolete, not only that but their body components lives are so reduced or expired that simply replacing the seekers would be a waste of money. Might as well build new ones: R-77

 

Imagine that you have a 15 year old R-27 body with an EA seeker upgrade thats sub par by even russians standards. You press the trigger, and the mottor is a dud, or the actuators dont work...

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Speaking of missiles, in Ethiopia-Erithrea conflict were they using R-27Rs or ERs as well? Those performed so bad it's beyond belief, I think only one managed to damage a MiG-29. So what was the deal there? Were the pilots just spamming the missiles like crazy, fighting for life & death, were both sides so good they knew how to beat the missiles, or were the missiles just simply bad?

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But than again, if your R-27-non-As are as old and illmaintained as they are, and you don't have money to refurbish all your planes, why not just give them a gift of an upgraded seeker (and controller) that is compatible with both your planes and your existing missiles.

 

And if RuAf wouldn't be satisfied with that, I'm sure there are many who would. So why aren't we seeing this? One reason could be that the available seeker isn't that much compatible. Other that people don't got money even for that.

 

I don't believe in the notion that you could just stick an ARH seeker on the R-27E missile and employ it from existing WCS without changes....the missile parameter would be the same yes, but the seeker properties are obviously not. Besides, you could argue how much benefit you would get from such an upgrade if the WCS of the aircraft isn't modified to take full advantage of an ARH weapon.....such as launch directly from SNP(TWS) multiple support channels for midcourse guidance.

JJ

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Speaking of missiles, in Ethiopia-Erithrea conflict were they using R-27Rs or ERs as well? Those performed so bad it's beyond belief, I think only one managed to damage a MiG-29. So what was the deal there? Were the pilots just spamming the missiles like crazy, fighting for life & death, were both sides so good they knew how to beat the missiles, or were the missiles just simply bad?

 

These all are interesting questions but I'm affraid the truth is not easy to find. Keep in mind that those are contract pilots that fly for good (supposed so) money, which means that officialy they are not active pilots within the russian or ukranian AF. That leads to suspicion about their regular training. So I would believe that both sides have been so bad rather than good in employing their missiles. Also it is very likely to expect that the missiles supplied are from the export version from an early production with intentionally downgraded capabilities.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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Being old missiles the R-27's are in desperate need of replacement. The EA seeker may already be heavily obolete...

 

No it is not Pilotasso :) .

 

The 9B-1103M seeker is not really an R-27AE specific item - it is actaully a small range universial seekers in two different sizes(200 and 350mm - I gues the latter is meant for SAMs). Of the 200mm variant there is a new upgraded version (although it retains the 9B-1103M designation) available, which employs the latest in seeker technology, which improves its characteristics on just about all areas, while dramatically cutting down on its weight.

 

The whole point to the R-27AE proposal was exactly to "beef up" an old missile design with the latest in electronics, while the choice eventually made was to concentrate efforts/funding on an all new missile design - the R-77, which is now being produced as the RVV-AE.

JJ

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Also it is very likely to expect that the missiles supplied are from the export version from an early production with intentionally downgraded capabilities.

 

And it's a question of how old those missiles were and in what state. We would also need some more specific info on their employment.

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And it's a question of how old those missiles were and in what state. We would also need some more specific info on their employment.

 

Indeed, because missiles are time limited components. Being one-time use device it's service life is defined not by flight hours like any other component but only by calendar time. For example I know about a practice in the Bulgarian AF that missiles/bombs close to expiration date are intentionaly used in exercises to get rid of them.

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Hajduk bro, I dont know from where you pump that never endening energy for R-27EA,…
I got some spare time on hand. Currently, I am at a Grand Lodge hotel in Minneapolis, Minnesota, killing some time before catching my flight back home. It’s a very nice hotel by the way, with indoor water park …

 

… like your life is depending on it :-)
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No it is not Pilotasso :) .

 

The 9B-1103M seeker is not really an R-27AE specific item - it is actaully a small range universial seekers in two different sizes(200 and 350mm - I gues the latter is meant for SAMs). Of the 200mm variant there is a new upgraded version (although it retains the 9B-1103M designation) available, which employs the latest in seeker technology, which improves its characteristics on just about all areas, while dramatically cutting down on its weight.

 

The whole point to the R-27AE proposal was exactly to "beef up" an old missile design with the latest in electronics, while the choice eventually made was to concentrate efforts/funding on an all new missile design - the R-77, which is now being produced as the RVV-AE.

 

 

ouch! :D

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ouch!

 

Don't get me wrong Pilotasso - it was a fair assumption that an ARH seeker proposed for a missile in the early nineties would be, if not obsolete, then at least not "cutting edge" by now......not least considering that the new upgraded version retains the exact same designation as the earlier one :) .

JJ

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