Getting AOA right on carrier landings

[rikkles]

I seem to be having a lot of trouble to get the AOA right on the carrier landings. I end up too slow and stall. The frustrating part is that I can land on the carrier pretty regularly if I don't bother looking at the approach light.

I'm going to try going for autothrottle for a few runs to see what the approach speed should be. Loving the module right now, it's the only one that makes me happy to move away from the helos.

[Victory205]

I should have a detailed guide up today or tomorrow. Just tweaking a few final tips.

 

Trim is your friend.

[CaptJodan]

I should have a detailed guide up today or tomorrow. Just tweaking a few final tips.

 

Trim is your friend.

 

Your words of wisdom will be appreciated. I've already made a mental note several times when flying "Hey, Victory was right about this". "There's what he was talking about". Really brings things into focus.

[rikkles]

I should have a detailed guide up today or tomorrow. Just tweaking a few final tips.

 

Trim is your friend.

I surmised as much, and I can't wait for your expert knowledge. Thank you!

[Victory205]

I surmised as much, and I can't wait for your expert knowledge. Thank you!

 

It’s almost a five thousand word dissertation at this point. Might be too much for some!

[VampireNZ]

It’s almost a five thousand word dissertation at this point. Might be too much for some!

 

Any help on how do actually 'do stuff' would be helpful at this point. I don't know if HB were going for a 'super realistic' approach to the flight manual...but they covered the operation side of things, and super light on the 'how to actually do stuff' side (aside from a few 'training missions').

Yes the systems descriptions are nice, but in RL you then spend months actually being taught how to use it all.

 

Saying that, I have found this jet to be the easiest to get 'on-speed' and set up from the break of any jet in DCS I have flown. Really easy to hold it around base as well which is nice - the separated E-bracket and FPM just seems to work quite well, and the additional 'nice to have' alt info in the HUD is handy for a quick ref too.

Kinda cool to give the DLC a stab and see the diff it makes - understand what you were saying earlier that you have to be a fair way off to need to use it at all and is more a final fix if things are going south fast. Was actually doing some circuits with 'hilly' terrain located around the base turn (not ideal lol), and was setup in normal circuit - then DLC stab down and pop over the final hill, then DLC up and drop back onto profile lol.

[TonyG]

It’s almost a five thousand word dissertation at this point. Might be too much for some!

 

Seriously....I can not wait to read that.

[wurger13]

I will second that!

 

Thank you sir!

[Pasquale1986]

It’s almost a five thousand word dissertation at this point. Might be too much for some!

 

That sounds sexy!! Highly appreciated effort Sir

[Airhunter]

Can't wait for some real world input! The most issues I'm having are configuring on cross-to-downwind (gear, flaps) which usually result in a lot of re-trimming and power resets to stay on AOA.

[Victory205]

Can't wait for some real world input! The most issues I'm having are configuring on cross-to-downwind (gear, flaps) which usually result in a lot of re-trimming and power resets to stay on AOA.

 

Sounds about right. ;)

 

Are you gents using the E-Bracket? In real life, the update and behavior made it useless, and every one I knew in the A and B turned the HUD down or off for landing, especially at night.

 

Do you find the E bracket usable in the sim?

 

There is still tuning to be done on the landing configuration stability. It is quite complex and requires tedious trial and error.

 

Some of the frustration is FBW pilots having to unlearn bad habits. FBW ruins pilots, it really does.

 

Guide is ready, just waiting to make sure of where it needs to go...

Edited March 14, 2019 by Victory205

[rikkles]

For now I don’t even think about the e-bracket. The one thing I have trouble adjusting to is the lack of air speed indicator on tbe HUD. But I’m now nailing 90% of my landings even with violent winds like the one in instant action in normandy. Can’t wait to read your dissertation. There are many possible trims, and just using the pitch trim makes a huge difference in flying stability.

[TwanV]

Looking forward to that Victory205, I guess I too have to "unlearn what I have learned", I can mask alot of difficiencies in the pattern in the FA18 but having a lot of trouble now finding a controllable pattern with the F14. I can get it on the deck but I feel very ad-hoc with the break..

 

 

At the break acc. NATOPS the boards go out but I can't really make that work, I lose airspeed too quickly and if I try to remedy I end up near 2nm abeam the LSO.. What does work for me is letting the plane slow down on drag upto the first 90, dirty up and then go brakes out to get in the on-speed zone quickly without too much altitude loss. Would be very interested in some background as to why the above isn't likely to be the way to success, maybe the idea is to snap the break but unload the turn much quicker than e.g. with the hornet? Or would you apply some brake but not all?

 

 

Another question I had, when would be a good time to start trimming? is that on the first 180 or before?:helpsmilie::joystick:

[Possum]

Looking forward to that Victory205, I guess I too have to "unlearn what I have learned", I can mask alot of difficiencies in the pattern in the FA18 but having a lot of trouble now finding a controllable pattern with the F14. I can get it on the deck but I feel very ad-hoc with the break..

 

 

At the break acc. NATOPS the boards go out but I can't really make that work, I lose airspeed too quickly and if I try to remedy I end up near 2nm abeam the LSO.. What does work for me is letting the plane slow down on drag upto the first 90, dirty up and then go brakes out to get in the on-speed zone quickly without too much altitude loss. Would be very interested in some background as to why the above isn't likely to be the way to success, maybe the idea is to snap the break but unload the turn much quicker than e.g. with the hornet? Or would you apply some brake but not all?

 

 

Another question I had, when would be a good time to start trimming? is that on the first 180 or before?:helpsmilie::joystick:

 

It depends on your airspeed when you break. To look good for all those on deck admiring your form, you want the wings swept throughout the break. You’ll need 400kts to do it, 450 is more comfortable. If you come in too slow, you’re not going to be able keep them swept at idle w/SB. Use speed breaks as needed and adjust your pull as needed to be hitting 300kts no earlier than your last 30-40° of turn. If you’re a little slow in the break, float the early part of the turn and leave the power set. Then with 90° of turn to go, squat the jet with a good pull and get the wings moving. Make sure the speed brakes are out on downwind if you didn’t need them in the turn.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Possum

[Victory205]

Looking forward to that Victory205, I guess I too have to "unlearn what I have learned", I can mask alot of difficiencies in the pattern in the FA18 but having a lot of trouble now finding a controllable pattern with the F14. I can get it on the deck but I feel very ad-hoc with the break..

 

 

At the break acc. NATOPS the boards go out but I can't really make that work, I lose airspeed too quickly and if I try to remedy I end up near 2nm abeam the LSO.. What does work for me is letting the plane slow down on drag upto the first 90, dirty up and then go brakes out to get in the on-speed zone quickly without too much altitude loss. Would be very interested in some background as to why the above isn't likely to be the way to success, maybe the idea is to snap the break but unload the turn much quicker than e.g. with the hornet? Or would you apply some brake but not all?

 

 

Another question I had, when would be a good time to start trimming? is that on the first 180 or before?:helpsmilie::joystick:

 

The guide is up. Trim is explained there as is a detailed examination of the break maneuver. Have a look.

[Harlikwin]

Um where is it?

[Clem Fandango]

Thanks heaps Victory, your hard work is very much appreciated!

 

 

Any idea where we can download it from guys?

[GTFreeFlyer]

Getting AOA right on carrier landings

 

Here’s the one tip you need: Your elevator stick controls airspeed. Your throttle controls altitude (or rate of descent). Seems counter-intuitive to the novice pilot.

 

Coming in too fast? Pull back on the elevator. Of course, you’ll have too much energy, so you’ll end up climbing. Pull the throttle back to stay on your glide slope.

 

Once you establish the correct AoA, use elevator trim to neutralize the stick force. You shouldn’t need to play with the elevator stick much from here on out. Use the throttle to adjust your glide slope. Don’t worry, adjusting throttle here won’t change your speed much. The plane will naturally climb or descend and MAINTAIN airspeed AND AoA without any elevator input simply by the pure magic of physics/aerodynamics.

 

Just remember:

Pitch for airspeed, throttle for altitude.

 

I’ve been a simmer my whole life and never really got it until I started training for my PPL.

 

I always think of my elevator trim as an autopilot’s airspeed setting. Pushing/pulling on the elevator stick is just a temporary override of the airspeed setting.

 

Happy traps!

Edited March 15, 2019 by GTFreeFlyer

[Victory205]

Interesting. I assumed that everyone understood that aspect.

[GTFreeFlyer]

Interesting. I assumed that everyone understood that aspect.

 

 

 

It makes sense after you know it, but we all grow up knowing cars before planes, and it’s the throttle (gas pedal) that changes your speed. That totally messes you up for flying planes.

 

Also, I grew up playing flight sims without rudder pedals, and the first time I tried taxing a 152, I tried steering with the ailerons!

[Lymark]

Pitch for airspeed, throttle for altitude.

 

I’ve been a simmer my whole life and never really got it until I started training for my PPL.

 

I always think of my elevator trim as an autopilot’s airspeed setting. Pushing/pulling on the elevator stick is just a temporary override of the airspeed setting.

 

Happy traps!

 

I fly a tiny cessna IRL and have also played the F18 in DCS and F16 in BMS. I've taken 'pitch for speed, power for altitude' into my heart, as well as aware of what it takes to maintain AOA and land on a carrier properly. But dang, It's a whole different level of flying when flying a 'modern jet' with old school flying tricks. :lol:

 

What I find to be the most challenging at the moment is the 'power for altitude' part. Normally, you will see an almost immediately result when adjusting the power, but with the tomcat, I see no changes of altitude at all, at least not til I'm at a very low speed(below 150knts). Not only that, there also seems to be some sort of delay to the response too. In the end, all these combined are giving me a very unstable and confusing approach.

 

Any advice? :)

[Red_Donkey]

F14, needs to have speedbrakes fully extended, right? Probably to put the engines in a more responsive "zone".

[Cooler07]

Ah yes! The old "pitch for airspeed, power for altitude" theory. Or "pitch for altitude, power for airspeed".

 

Note: in the older days we said "pitch for airspeed, power for RATE"

 

Having flown for the last 30+ years, in big one's and little one's, fast one's and slow one's and still going today, in real flying you use a bit of both.

 

Look at it this way, if the autopilot is on and it has auto throttles and its following the flight director, then it will pitch for altitude, power for airspeed.

 

Another way to look at it is. If power is fixed "no power glide" you pitch for airspeed.

 

It also depends if you are flying straight wing or sweep wing.

 

Small straight wing aircraft "Piper, Cessna etc" where there is limited power you pitch for airspeed in climb and get whatever rate you get. This can also apply to sweep wing aircraft in the climb to a certain extent, speed limits below 10,000 in the US. Where you would fly pitch "X" and power for airspeed.

 

You normally don't see small training aircraft or for that matter prop driven aircraft with AOA indicators.

 

As for landings in sweep wing aircraft, yes we normally fly on speed AOA, but you also control the path with pitch, meaning in the REAL WORLD you have ever changing atmospheric conditions. In other words the aircraft is not on a rail.

 

So in the real world of flying you just don't think about it to hard.

 

As my instructor told me, "Just fly the f#%&^&* airplane and don't worry about IT!

:doh:

[Possum]

I fly a tiny cessna IRL and have also played the F18 in DCS and F16 in BMS. I've taken 'pitch for speed, power for altitude' into my heart, as well as aware of what it takes to maintain AOA and land on a carrier properly. But dang, It's a whole different level of flying when flying a 'modern jet' with old school flying tricks. :lol:

 

What I find to be the most challenging at the moment is the 'power for altitude' part. Normally, you will see an almost immediately result when adjusting the power, but with the tomcat, I see no changes of altitude at all, at least not til I'm at a very low speed(below 150knts). Not only that, there also seems to be some sort of delay to the response too. In the end, all these combined are giving me a very unstable and confusing approach.

 

Any advice? :)

 

You’re right that it only really works slow. It depends on where you are on the power curve. If you try to use backside technique on the front side, it’ll be confusing. When you’re on speed, power for altitude works. As others said, in reality though, you’ll still “influence” the nose to reduce the lag time.

[Bad Idea Hat]

I use the E-bracket, but wouldn't if I had some sort of visual reference to stand-in for me being unable to feel the motion of the aircraft slowing down. It's primarily there for me to figure out if I'm slowing or speeding up beyond what I want it to do.