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F-14 Air to Air tactics


rweaves6

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Yes, slats are not the only thing deploying with the DLC thumb roller, also some flap.

 

 

Yes, but there are times when its advantages to get them out when normally they wouldn't. High speed turn using gravity, or over the top inverted to help the nose over. Basic energy building and retaining maneuvers.

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I agree for the most part with what you’re saying, many great points. But again, I stated very clearly that I’m talking strictly bare bones guns BFM. I was hoping to ignite a fruitful discussion on the F14’s flight characteristics, advantages and disadvantages in a pure dogfight. I believe this is where you get the true representation of an aircraft’s flight characteristics that you can then build on with radar and weapon platforms. Those of course are an entirely different discussion.

 

I also realize that no one is going to flush that all out in a single post. My hope was that maybe through this thread individuals could extrapolate new ideas that could then be implemented and experimented with.

 

Can’t speak to the sim, but i found the Tomcat performed best in a 1 circle fight (or, I flew the 14 best in a 1 circle fight), so I pushed it there. The key is to think of it as down range travel, and the first to get there loses.

 

So, when transitioning to 1-circle, get your nose away from down range, and remember altitude is your friend. It takes time to develop recognition, but you have to develop an awareness for when to perform and energy depleting pull, and when to perform an energy efficient pull. When in doubt, put your lift vector on them and pull. Collapse the distance, unless you find yourself defensive and are trying to create angles to bug. Learn to fly and control the aircraft at it minimum controllable speed without tipping over the edge. It’s better to be a few knits fast and to keep turning, than it is to get too slow and have to dump the nose to get knots back.

 

Try it out, and post specific questions. Mostly just practice.

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Can’t speak to the sim, but i found the Tomcat performed best in a 1 circle fight (or, I flew the 14 best in a 1 circle fight), so I pushed it there. The key is to think of it as down range travel, and the first to get there loses.

 

So, when transitioning to 1-circle, get your nose away from down range, and remember altitude is your friend. It takes time to develop recognition, but you have to develop an awareness for when to perform and energy depleting pull, and when to perform an energy efficient pull. When in doubt, put your lift vector on them and pull. Collapse the distance, unless you find yourself defensive and are trying to create angles to bug. Learn to fly and control the aircraft at it minimum controllable speed without tipping over the edge. It’s better to be a few knits fast and to keep turning, than it is to get too slow and have to dump the nose to get knots back.

 

Try it out, and post specific questions. Mostly just practice.

 

So your main focus was turn radius? Did you prefer the vertical one circle fight or a horizontal turn with maybe a displacement roll or something?

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Once you go 1-circle, yes. I liked to get my nose as high as I could get it without getting too slow. You have to know what direction the fight is going, and then try not to go there. Vertical gets the speed down and adds a positional advantage.

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got this off a community discord dedicated for PvP

 

 

"Tip for anyone trying to master BFM in the Tomcat ( @mad rabbit ) you can basically win any fight as long as you don't exceed 15 units AOA. Just peg the AOA indicator at 15 (it's left side under the HUD, 15 is the middle of the indicator), full burner and hold the turn, you'll reel them in after a couple of turns. If you go over 20 units AOA you kill all your speed and you'll die, any less than 10 and you don't turn tight enough and you'll die.

try and maintain .6 mach and 15 units AOA"

 

By a guy in discord name Whiplash

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Oh well, whiplash. Has to be legit.

 

That was me - in fairness, it was advice for other beginners in the F-14 on how to progress from stalling and crashing to beating the AI. And it works great against the AI - you can win every fight against the AI by doing that. I wasn't really expecting to be quoted as the last word on how to win all fights against all opponents in a thread with real fighter pilots to critique it :D

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Spend some time practicing and noticing the sound and feel at different AOA. Fly various maneuvers looking over your shoulder, keeping your head out, only glancing at the AOA and ASI.

 

Try some basic loops at Mil at different entry speeds with a 4-5 G pull to a 15 unit pull over the top. See how slow you can enter and still get it over the top. Then do it using burner.

 

The rest is in the Handling tips. Practice finess, you can't just put your feet on the instrument panel and pull with both hands.

 

I thought you Ready Room hero's knew out to fly? ;)

Hi victory...first of all thank you for all yiur writjngs and tips...i am really divoring it.

Back to this thread...i already tried to do loops (in any aircraft i like to learn the handling and systems part well before the combat one) but probably something is wrong on my end...i did that before reading your handling and dlc writing so maybe when i will have time to try again something could be better.

Anyway i tried both full mil and full ab starting leveled at 400kts and pulling 3.5/4gs but i bleed all the energy well before reaching the top of the loop and then it just falls with be being not able to close the loop. Have you some advice?

Also when learning to fly in the sf260 (real life) they teached us to have a determined engine set to keep the cruise speed (140kts in that case) and to visually recognize the asset for level Flying (nose of the aircraft 4 fingers below the Horizon) so watching the variometer just confirmed level flying....is there some equivalent in the tomcat?trying to do that i just see the variometer dancing up and down.

In the sf260 we also had a manual with all the parameters for the manuovers..for example in order to start a loop it was 170kts the top of the canopy on the horizon and pull 3.5g.

Could you give us some help in order to know similar parameters?thanks so much for everything

 

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I can get the B over the top with a 180 KIAS entry at 5-10,000 feet, even with the gear and flaps down. Light buffet to 15-17 units over the top, gently.

 

Try 450 KIAS with a 4 G and transition to 15 units over the top and back to 4 G's down the backside. Should be a very comfortable maneuver at this speeds in Mil power. Report back.


Edited by Victory205

Viewpoints are my own.

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That was me - in fairness, it was advice for other beginners in the F-14 on how to progress from stalling and crashing to beating the AI. And it works great against the AI - you can win every fight against the AI by doing that. I wasn't really expecting to be quoted as the last word on how to win all fights against all opponents in a thread with real fighter pilots to critique it :D

 

I am now your biggest student. Your new call sign is "Yoda";)

Viewpoints are my own.

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So please share any resources or personal experience whether its armchair sim or if you have real life experience. Let’s keep this specific to the F-14, after all there is a ton of reference material for general BFM and ACM on the internet. Perhaps this could serve as a basic reference for those interested in learning BFM tactics in the Cat.

 

I think it's a great idea to have a thread discussing the different aspects of dogfighting in the Tomcat.

I have just been doing the instant mission in Caucasus but will try against different fighters.

In that fight both vertical and horizontal fights have been successful. I wonder which plane would be the hardest to fight against. I guess MIG-29 and SU-33 would be hard?

 

The buffet is a fantastic tool. It really tells you your limits. It's great to fly a real plane instead of FBW. Enjoying it immensely.

 

Next for me to test is using the maneuver flaps.


Edited by GVO
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Urrr what does that mean? Haven’t flown L39.

 

 

Always check the instruments. It seems most of it is not in Tomcat. This is due to the design of the aircraft. The nose is down in relation to canopy and the pilot sits very high. That's why you think you're flying straight and in truth you're losing height


Edited by dAsReLiCT

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I think it's a great idea to have a thread discussing the different aspects of dogfighting in the Tomcat.

I have just been doing the instant mission in Caucasus but will try against different fighters.

In that fight both vertical and horizontal fights have been successful. I wonder which plane would be the hardest to fight against. I guess MIG-29 and SU-33 would be hard?

 

The buffet is a fantastic tool. It really tells you your limits. It's great to fly a real plane instead of FBW. Enjoying it immensely.

 

Next for me to test is using the maneuver flaps.

 

For all of my joshing about the Hornet, it owns the upper left quadrant of the flight envelope. Foolish to go one circle with that. I got the sense that some guys liked one curve because the didn't like sustained, high G's, and the wanted the fight closer to keep sight easier.

 

I've beaten F18's in a pure, neutral start 1v1 in an F14A, and stayed neutral with a well flown Hornet and experienced USMC pilot, but it took patience, executing the basics well (why I stress practice and buffet cues) and sometimes an over stress inspection. Honestly, It is a great little turner, until you loaded it up with tanks. USMC got them before USN, so there wasn't as much experience and most of the Navy guys I saw came from A7's. Marines came from F4's and were a little better at ACM initially.

 

I never saw a Super Hornet.


Edited by Victory205

Viewpoints are my own.

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Once you go 1-circle, yes. I liked to get my nose as high as I could get it without getting too slow. You have to know what direction the fight is going, and then try not to go there. Vertical gets the speed down and adds a positional advantage.

 

That’s good stuff- many thanks.

I’ve been doing the Maple flag F5e BFM mission (edited with the F-14B replacing the f5e) where you take on 3 consecutive F5s, each with a 5min vul period.

 

I can handle it no problem in the f18c but it’s tricky with the F-14B. I don’t know if it’s just a better simulated flight model, but this module has taught me more about energy management in a short period of time than 35 years of other sims :)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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I can get the B over the top with a 180 KIAS entry at 5-10,000 feet, even with the gear and flaps down. Light buffet to 15-17 units over the top, gently.

 

Try 450 KIAS with a 4 G and transition to 15 units over the top and back to 4 G's down the backside. Should be a very comfortable maneuver at this speeds in Mil power. Report back.

 

 

 

Thank you...

I did as you adviced and “magically” i can complete a perfect loop...i even managed to finish at the same altitude that started...

Now i just need to learn how to keep it level both in level and turning flight....then later i will study your writings about dlc and landing...

You are really a great help and a valuable asset to this community.

Thanks again

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Hey Victory - would appreciate your input given you have actually flown this thing for real. I have been practicing a lot (my wife would say too much) in BFM against the F-5, Mig-29 and Su-27 and have taken to dropping the flaps, keeping my speed where possible in the 325ish knots range, going for light buffet at a maximum (and trying not to rip my flaps or slats apart). With that I can reel in these planes quite consistently and get on their 6 for a guns kill but was wondering is that ‘doing it wrong’, am I developing a crutch which is in the long run going to hamper how I perform in the plane? Particularly if the aerodynamic trade off with the flaps is worth it?

 

Jumped back in the Hornet a couple of times and it feels like it is ‘on the rails’ in comparison (pull hard, get site over target, wait for shoot cue) and is easier particularly slow at high AoA and certainly not as much challenging as trying to reign in the Tomcat!

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Here you go... My ass getting kicked by a flanker. LOL

 

unzip and view on tacview

 

I'm barely qualified to give you this advice, but since no one else answered...

 

You need to work on your defence. Read up on flat scissors. In that first fight, you clearly lost track of him for a bit, but at about 3:03 if you'd turned back into him instead of putting the nose up and climbing again you would have won.

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For all of my joshing about the Hornet, it owns the upper left quadrant of the flight envelope. Foolish to go one circle with that. I got the sense that some guys liked one curve because the didn't like sustained, high G's, and the wanted the fight closer to keep sight easier.

...

Honestly, It is a great little turner, until you loaded it up with tanks.

 

So when you blow your advantage and merge, for those of us w/o a few hundred hours BFM training...what the best probability tactic? I've been trying to take flight vertical and stay away from pointy end but Then what? I can fly but still struggle with some of the systems... haven't had much time yet. Can you fire an aim-9 from a prayer VSL Hi acquisition?

 

I will get proficient in the tomcat eventually, work has been a bitch and I love the way she flies so I'm sure I'll get there. But right now I'm devouring cats in the Hornet. I've got a lot more hours in it, but in a merge its over before 14 can find the drop tanks menu option. Presumably they are still getting proficient as well but they all seem to want to be very high and start lobbing 54s at 40 miles out. Now and then you get surprised with very little time to react, but its an easy notch and they don't seem to track well against clutter. I'm sure RIOs will improve, but that was an important 20 years in terms of avionics development. C2 tracks make it even easier to go silent and pop in and out of clutter while 14 steams closes distance for you, radar AZ/EL straight ahead. When hornets get TWS, ECM and decoys its going to be rough unless I get a whole lot better!

 

With the hornet's ability to point its nose and jhmcs/HOBS I expect it to be tough, but I'd like to be better than what I'm seeing from myself or other 14 drivers. I wouldn't want to be the SEAD element in a strike mission against a good 2-ship tomcat flight intercepting, but in the 1v1 stuff that happens online so often thus far I have yet to figure this bird out.

 

Damn fun to fly though

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

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