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Tactics against F-14B / AIM-54


Weasel0815

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Does the missiles have the same performance and capability regardless is it launched by player or AI?

 

Meaning that both could maintain lock as effectively? But no range or maneuvering differences?

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My understanding of the AIM-54 was that it was designed for downing (then) Soviet bombers at long distance.

 

 

 

Big aircraft incoming.

 

 

I've never heard of it being utilized against fighter sized aircraft.

 

 

Seems to be a misuse of the intended design to me.

 

 

For me, this is a negative to the suspension of reality.

 

 

The F-14 downed 2 Su-22s and later, 2 MiG-23s. It apparently had quite a bit of success in the Iran-Iraq War aswell albeit no official figures exist. It's certainly not a suspension of reality for the F-14 to be used against fighter sized aircraft. It easily rivals the F-15 as an imposing presence in an airspace. It's not just a bomber killer.


Edited by CarbonFox

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Its always usefull to have a buddy flight to act as a bait. 1 vs 1 is hard to win, lets say you manage to get close with all that notching and beaming tricks but inside 15 miles with PAL mode the tomcat would lock you up and launch the 54 no matter what you do unless theres a hill or something to cover then you'd likely toast.

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The fact of the matter is, is that there is not a single confirmed, intent to down, hit with an AIM54 by the US Navy. The only things the 54 actually shot down were drones during targeting. The confirmed shoot downs with the F14 are with Aim7's or sidewinders. The Iranian claims are unsubstantiated so I'm not counting them. The 54 as is is way overcooked and way unreflective of the actual performance of the missile. All things being equal, as far as piloting skills go, the Hornet should make pretty quick work of the Tomcat, but that is not what we're seeing because of the overcooked performance of the 54.

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Be aware MotarRat that at midrange it has a huge energy advantage over amraam

 

It's a marketing thing - you don't want people who just spent $70 on a module to come back and say that their newly acquired uber missile doesn't work or is not an insta kill. Don't fool yourself that these missiles and many other systems operate like their real life counterparts - they don't, tons of it is make believe.

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they don't, tons of it is make believe.
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Well the hornet is a vastly superior WVR fighter, with the AIM9X and FBW, which both could probably be argued to be “over cooked” as well. The only attempted use of the 9X in combat, it also failed.

 

Each fighter has its strengths and weaknesses.

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Well the hornet is a vastly superior WVR fighter, with the AIM9X and FBW, which both could probably be argued to be “over cooked” as well. The only attempted use of the 9X in combat, it also failed.

 

Each fighter has its strengths and weaknesses.

 

ED doesnt simulate random missile failures.....

 

 

a single failing use in combat doesn't failing mean the missile itself is a failure or better than advertised . unless you want to imply it is inferior to the Aim9M it succeeded simply because from a statistical point of view Aim9M had more combat launches to account for, and therefore has a higher success rate.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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ED doesnt simulate random missile failures.....

 

 

a single failing use in combat doesn't failing mean the missile itself is a failure or better than advertised . unless you want to imply it is inferior to the Aim9M it succeeded simply because from a statistical point of view Aim9M had more combat launches to account for, and therefore has a higher success rate.

 

Correct.

 

The same can be said in regards to the Phoenix. It has nothing inherently wrong with it, except the wrong expectations it generates on people who are splashed by it and think the fault is not on themselves.

 

I haven't seen a single good argument in this thread against the Phoenix except "personal feelings".

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The fact of the matter is, is that there is not a single confirmed, intent to down, hit with an AIM54 by the US Navy. The only things the 54 actually shot down were drones during targeting. The confirmed shoot downs with the F14 are with Aim7's or sidewinders. The Iranian claims are unsubstantiated so I'm not counting them. The 54 as is is way overcooked and way unreflective of the actual performance of the missile. All things being equal, as far as piloting skills go, the Hornet should make pretty quick work of the Tomcat, but that is not what we're seeing because of the overcooked performance of the 54.

 

YOu might be able to doubt the total claimed kills, as some instances cant be verified or may sound questionable. but on the other hand is dismissive and a affront to the efforts of historians and/or professional researchers that have attempted to publish their findings what really happened to pretend that Iranians were incapable of attaining any AIm54 kills on fighters during an 8 year war is very unreasonable if not outright denialism. A 8 year long war is going to allow far more opportunities for air kills than brief skirmishes where US flown F14's had seen combat.

 

 

 

Some others certainly have enough verification that they are #'s mentioned with confidence in published works.

 

 

There is in fact a verified instance of Iranian F14 shooting down 3 mig23's with single Aim54 flying in close formation. They were shot down over Kharg island and Iranian forces on the ground had found 3 mig23 wrecks.

I suggest reading Pierre Razoux's Iran Iraq war. ( pub 2015) IT is not a dedicated book with regards to air combat tatcis analysis , its about war overall, , strategy, major engagements, and the politics, but does cover aerial engagements, it make multiple mentions of verified aerial engagements involving F14's and Iraqi aircraft.

 

IF there weren't any meaningful Aim54 kills the Iraqis wouldn't have had such psychological fear of the tomcat that there were instances that they would RTB if they realized Iranians had F14 up in the skies within killing range where they were flying.


Edited by Kev2go

 

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I think the hit % of the current DCS Aim54 is a bit too good. The Aim54 wasn't a very good missile, not hitting the intended targets the few times they were fired from US F14's during their time in service. The Iranian AF boasted a pile of kills with the 54, but who's to say those numbers aren't inflated.

 

The 54 has the range advantage, but the missile doesn't go pitbull till its about 10nm. The 120C is a superior ordinance. Just take away the 14's range advantage and get the fight to within 40nm and the advantage goes to the Hornet. Force the 14 to go defensive disrupting the INS cues the 54 is getting from the 14 while you close the gap. You should pick up the 54 on your rwr once it goes active with enough time to notch the missile.

If you simply cut the numbers of some 159 confirmed kills and 34 unconfirmed by 50% for “boosting“, you still get an impressive record against the Iraqis and their supporters.

Over 70 kills of the nearly 200 claimed were AIM-54A. Some hit Bombers, but mostly they downed MiG-21, 23, Mirages and other Fighters... and we are talking numbers coming from actual Crews, the Iraqis and US sources who eagerly monitored the performance of the AIM-54 and the number of shots fired (remaining Phoenix missiles) for obvious reasons. ;)

Let's just say, the AIM-54 seems to be a quite capable missile against fighters, at least older ones.

 

EDIT recommended read: Osprey Combat Aircraft Series, Iranian F-14 Tomcat units in combat, by Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop.


Edited by shagrat

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The fact of the matter is, is that there is not a single confirmed, intent to down, hit with an AIM54 by the US Navy. The only things the 54 actually shot down were drones during targeting. The confirmed shoot downs with the F14 are with Aim7's or sidewinders. The Iranian claims are unsubstantiated so I'm not counting them. The 54 as is is way overcooked and way unreflective of the actual performance of the missile. All things being equal, as far as piloting skills go, the Hornet should make pretty quick work of the Tomcat, but that is not what we're seeing because of the overcooked performance of the 54.

 

May I ask how many AIM-54 shots you observed and analysed IRL to know so much detail on the "actual performance" of the missile? Or do you just make it up from something you read somewhere about someone who was there, that has been interviewed by someone who had to put an interesting headline up? ;)

 

It is like I expected, now it is the unrealistic Phoenix, before it was the unrealistic "Spamraam". Luckily it is never the weapon you use yourself, like the unrealistic R-27ET or the unrealistic AIM-9X... :megalol:

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Well the hornet is a vastly superior WVR fighter, with the AIM9X and FBW, which both could probably be argued to be “over cooked” as well. The only attempted use of the 9X in combat, it also failed.

 

Each fighter has its strengths and weaknesses.

 

Not true. The AIM-9X has been used successfully by Turkish F-16 against Russian Su-24.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown

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Not true. The AIM-9X has been used successfully by Turkish F-16 against Russian Su-24.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown

 

Hadn’t heard about that one. The 2017 SU24 shootdown in Syria was advertised as the first use in combat (where the missile failed). First US use in combat I guess, or perhaps Wikipedia is wrong too, unless there are corroborating sources.

 

So that makes it 50% success in combat! I’m not arguing that the 9X is a bad missile, just that combat is not the same as testing conditions. The 9X is a beast in DCS, so is the Phoenix. Both have cases in real life where the missile failed. Doesn’t make either one over cooked in DCS.

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Stop picking 1v1 fights with an adversary that has better BVR capabilities and is more capable at dictating the range of the engagement. Use combined tactics with a wingman for increased survivability and PK. If you guys think you're having a hard time going up against a solo crewed F-14, wait until it's a human RIO that has scanned through the manual, with about 2 hours experience using the AWG-9. You are in for a rude awakening. No amount of notching nor NOE flight will save you from a sharp RIO at the helm of that radar.

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May I ask how many AIM-54 shots you observed and analysed IRL to know so much detail on the "actual performance" of the missile? Or do you just make it up from something you read somewhere about someone who was there, that has been interviewed by someone who had to put an interesting headline up? ;)

 

It is like I expected, now it is the unrealistic Phoenix, before it was the unrealistic "Spamraam". Luckily it is never the weapon you use yourself, like the unrealistic R-27ET or the unrealistic AIM-9X... :megalol:

 

:thumbup:

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The F-14 downed 2 Su-22s and later, 2 MiG-23s. It apparently had quite a bit of success in the Iran-Iraq War aswell albeit no official figures exist. It's certainly not a suspension of reality for the F-14 to be used against fighter sized aircraft. It easily rivals the F-15 as an imposing presence in an airspace. It's not just a bomber killer.

 

The F-14 may have downed those Su-22 and MiG-23's but it wasn't by the AIM-54 missiles. In fact the three times it was fired in anger, 2 AIM-54's had their rocket motors fail, and one additional time it just simply missed the MiG-23.

 

So for the sake of reality in the game with it's dubious combat history in the US Navy it would not be unrealistic to mimic this reliability rate. Iranian sources are hardly accurate at best based on their mere propaganda alone coming from their regime. The Fakour is probably powered by 72 virgins for all we know.

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The F-14 may have downed those Su-22 and MiG-23's but it wasn't by the AIM-54 missiles. In fact the three times it was fired in anger, 2 AIM-54's had their rocket motors fail, and one additional time it just simply missed the MiG-23.

 

So for the sake of reality in the game with it's dubious combat history in the US Navy it would not be unrealistic to mimic this reliability rate. Iranian sources are hardly accurate at best based on their mere propaganda alone coming from their regime. The Fakour is probably powered by 72 virgins for all we know.

 

Unless you want AIM-9X's to never hit, I don't think you want combat reliability rates modelled.

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The F-14 may have downed those Su-22 and MiG-23's but it wasn't by the AIM-54 missiles. In fact the three times it was fired in anger, 2 AIM-54's had their rocket motors fail, and one additional time it just simply missed the MiG-23.

 

So for the sake of reality in the game with it's dubious combat history in the US Navy it would not be unrealistic to mimic this reliability rate. Iranian sources are hardly accurate at best based on their mere propaganda alone coming from their regime. The Fakour is probably powered by 72 virgins for all we know.

 

By that logic, the same standard needs to be applied to all missiles. The AIM9X has either a 0% or 50% success rate, depending on whether turkey used a 9X in their shootdown or not. I don’t have stats for other missiles, but this extreme example illustrates the folly of relying on such small sample size.

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  • 4 months later...
Except in game the Aim54 is 1000 times more accurate than the Aim120 at mid range.

 

This is what bothers me. You can simply do a high G turn when the Aim120 closes and easily shake it off.

 

If an Aim54 is launched, the aircraft has to make a perfect notch and pray for terrain clutter/masking. I have dumped my full load of chaff at a perfect 90 degree notch, and still had the missile re-acquire.

 

Pulling all this off at 15 miles is quite a feat.

 

Meanwhile the Aim120/aim9 can me dodged with pretty basic maneuvering.

 

Just seems a bit suspect when the Aim54 shoots like a laser and all other missiles can be fought against easily when you see it coming. Its not a real world argument about the behavior of the missile. It is more of how the implementation behaves in the sim.

 

Gives the vibe for trying to sell the product rather than create a valid sim in my view. Who does not want to buy the aircraft with the highest nostalgia that solely includes the unbeatable missile that shoots from near infinite range.

 

Not to discredit the hard work put in, seems like a great module but I think it needs a closer look in comparison to the rest of the content within DCS.

 

 

120's are way underpowered in the game and Aim54's are way OP. Hope they fix it - it's a bit ridiculous right now.

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