Is it me or is the F14 getting owned in multiply Player?

[OnlyforDCS]

A few tips for those who (like me) have a hard time in BFM with the F14.

 

Use the F14 to it's strengths. In DCS this currently means (if you're flying with Jester) stay low and don't be afraid to disengage.

 

Use TWS only to find and identify the targets, switch to STT locks whenever possible and use the Jester wheel to select the "nearest enemy target" (it will show you the nautical miles).

 

Bug out as soon as you get too close, or if you can't get a consistent lock. This last part is probably the most important one and is key to surviving in the F14 in a typical DCS multiplayer scenario. I think a lot of players make the push into the merge where they lose their SA and subsequently get killed.

 

Don't be afraid to disengage and fly away using valleys and hills as cover, then turn back in get some SA and re-engage if possible.

 

All of this can be condensed into don't BFM unless you know exactly what you are doing :) Stay in the BVR arena, play it safe and you will consistently make it back to base with a couple of kills under your belt :)

Edited March 31, 2019 by OnlyforDCS

[Hummingbird]

In a dogfight F-18s are going to be more maneuverable. .

 

Someone didn't follow the conversation :D

[Sandman1330]

Someone didn't follow the conversation :D

 

I don't know, I'm tempted to agree with him. In a purely WVR context, guns only and taking 9X/JHMCS out of the equation, even then I think the Hornet is superior in a knife fight.

 

In my small server group, we do a fair bit of 1v1. Before the F14, Hornet v Hornet, I would consistently come out on top. Sometimes I'd even jump in the Harrier for a lark, and usually still won against the other guys in the Hornet. I just have a lot more experience doing it than they do.

 

Then I jumped in the 14, and they (in the Hornet) soundly whooped me, I mean bad! That being said, I've always performed better in turn fighters - I really took to the Spitfire over the Mustang, for example. It is probably just my style of flying, but even after quite a bit of time in the Tomcat, I still prefer the Hornet.

[jcdata]

People that start off in newer aircraft will have difficulty going to an older aircraft because the FCS hides their hamfist/heavy handed tendencies. I don't think the flight models are equal in quirks or traits. The F-18, 15 like all aircraft have them.

 

What variant of the CAS is modeled in the F-15? The analog version had a tendency to do adverse yaw to snap roll.. ala. 'bitburg roll'. Both 18 and 15 have buffeting cues.

 

The F14 I am happy models AFCS not DFCS. The latter while cleaned up a lot of traits, I was told . Some of the old maneuvers you could not to do as you did with AFCS.

 

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[Hummingbird]

I don't know, I'm tempted to agree with him. In a purely WVR context, guns only and taking 9X/JHMCS out of the equation, even then I think the Hornet is superior in a knife fight.

 

In my small server group, we do a fair bit of 1v1. Before the F14, Hornet v Hornet, I would consistently come out on top. Sometimes I'd even jump in the Harrier for a lark, and usually still won against the other guys in the Hornet. I just have a lot more experience doing it than they do.

 

Then I jumped in the 14, and they (in the Hornet) soundly whooped me, I mean bad! That being said, I've always performed better in turn fighters - I really took to the Spitfire over the Mustang, for example. It is probably just my style of flying, but even after quite a bit of time in the Tomcat, I still prefer the Hornet.

 

Well the funny part is that the F-14 is an excellent turn fighter, tight sustained turns being one of its main strengths. The thing about the Tomcat though is it rewards smooth flying and punishes hamfisting the controls. By comparison the F/A-18 is the most forgiving aircraft you can imagine, hence I'd definitely expect someone used to flying the F/A-18 to struggle in the F-14 as the latter demands some care in maneuvers whilst the former basically flies itself.

[vadupleix]

Tacview of the first F14vsF15 guns only fight (my tag is BRABUS):

 

Gbo3nlLXIME

 

Could you please also upload a tacview file to say, Google drive? It would help a lot if we can see it from different perspectives and also see the real-time stats on both aircraft.

 

Thanks for doing this it definitely gives us some confidence on the performance of the Tomcat

[FZG_Immel]

Well the funny part is that the F-14 is an excellent turn fighter, tight sustained turns being one of its main strengths. The thing about the Tomcat though is it rewards smooth flying and punishes hamfisting the controls. By comparison the F/A-18 is the most forgiving aircraft you can imagine, hence I'd definitely expect someone used to flying the F/A-18 to struggle in the F-14 as the latter demands some care in maneuvers whilst the former basically flies itself.

 

Exactly/

 

Without the jmhcs and the 9x, I can really make a hornet bad day if he goes into a low speed fight.

 

Descending spirals, the tomcat is a beast.

[stuart666]

Got to say, great thread, and thanks for the Tactview of the F15 engagement. ive yet to try this in multiplayer, but there is some stuff there whcih has proven very useful against the AI. I bagged an F18 the other day with guns. Not a very pretty engagement because I did about 9 G and lost some systems. Still, a kill is a kill.

 

 

This has some useful information on it as well.

 

There are a few on youtube like it, not least the Falcon 3 ACM briefing 'The Art of the Kill'.

[Drag80]

F15 and F18 dont stand a chance in BVR against AIM 54 Missile.

 

In short range combat, F14 does not stand a chance.

 

AIM 54 is much faster and has longer ranges. I dont understand why people are getting beaten up.

[jcdata]

F15 and F18 dont stand a chance in BVR against AIM 54 Missile.

 

In short range combat, F14 does not stand a chance.

 

AIM 54 is much faster and has longer ranges. I dont understand why people are getting beaten up.

You haven't read any part of this thread have you?

 

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[Sandman1330]

Well the funny part is that the F-14 is an excellent turn fighter, tight sustained turns being one of its main strengths. The thing about the Tomcat though is it rewards smooth flying and punishes hamfisting the controls. By comparison the F/A-18 is the most forgiving aircraft you can imagine, hence I'd definitely expect someone used to flying the F/A-18 to struggle in the F-14 as the latter demands some care in maneuvers whilst the former basically flies itself.

 

Perhaps theoretically, but I have yet to find someone who can fly it to the theoretical maximum while maintaining SA in the fight, managing the weapons, and keeping it under control.

 

Look forward to testing it out with you this weekend! Perhaps you will prove me wrong. :smilewink:

[Banzaiib]

Just going to throw this out there... the missile code in multiplayer is complete garbage, so comparing BVR fights and aircraft capaiblities is pretty pointless. Also, the F-14 is about 100x more difficult to fight with than the F-18 and F-15, so yeah, you're going to get discrepancies early on. Does this mean it's less capable? I don't think so. There are so many variables in the equation that you can't just categorically say, F-15 is better or F-18 is better.

[jcdata]

Just going to throw this out there... the missile code in multiplayer is complete garbage, so comparing BVR fights and aircraft capaiblities is pretty pointless. Also, the F-14 is about 100x more difficult to fight with than the F-18 and F-15, so yeah, you're going to get discrepancies early on. Does this mean it's less capable? I don't think so. There are so many variables in the equation that you can't just categorically say, F-15 is better or F-18 is better.

Very well said

 

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[Hummingbird]

Perhaps theoretically, but I have yet to find someone who can fly it to the theoretical maximum while maintaining SA in the fight, managing the weapons, and keeping it under control.

 

Look forward to testing it out with you this weekend! Perhaps you will prove me wrong. :smilewink:

 

We will have a blast irrespective of the result :pilotfly:

[Hummingbird]

So I just had the greatest of times with Royalwin dogfighting 1v1 on the Just Dogfights server!

 

Initially we (specifically I) had problems with keeping visual (and just my orientation in general) due to the fights being over water (I have to avoid over water fights due to my graphics settings making the ocean seem like just a blue sheet of paper, hence giving no way of judging own movement), but luckily we found a spot over land and then everything was good.

 

So, I might as well come out straight away and say that initially I had my butt handed to me on a platter, mainly for two significant reasons:

1. Turns out Royalwin is a former F-15 pilot!! (Felt a lot better about myself after he revealed that hahaha! :D )

2. The aircraft were at 50% fuel, so for the first few fights I was struggling to actually keep the speed low enough to be effective in the dogfight. (Im used to starting at 100%)

 

Poor excuses out of the way, after a few runs though I figured out how to best start my engagements and things evened out, and the conclusions Royal and I could draw were the same as the ones I've mentioned before:

1) In the horizontal the F-14 is king, when'ever Royal would engage in a purely horizontal turn fight I would steadly gain on him, esp. if I had forced him to ground level and made sure I didnt overspeed, then I would actually get on his tail rather quickly. However the F-15 was able to effectively negate this to a large extent by going vertical early in the fight, just as expected.

2) When in a tight spot the F-15 enjoys the advantage of being much more controllable in aggressive reversals, where'as the Tomcat at that point becomes quite the handful. Royal more times than one had me completely overshoot him as he performed what I can only describe as maneuvers belonging in von Richthofens flying circus :P

3) Flown right these two aircraft are very close to each other in terms of ACM, however with their main strengths differentiating from each other.

 

 

After this we tried the F/A-18 vs F-15, and this also pretty much ended in a tie, however it should be mentioned that during this part of our bouts we were to a large extend distracted by some goons shooting missiles straight at us into the 1v1 zone (not cool). But what we could deduce was that the F/A-18 has the advantage when things get REALLY slow, however the F-15 has little problem just speeding away should it find itself heading into a tough spot. An upwards spiral by the F-15 is almost impossible to do anything about in the F/A-18, and down low in a high rate turn fight I did find it harder to get on his tail in the F/A-18 than in the F-14. Once I was on his tail in the F/A-18 however, the carefree handling of the Hornet enabled me to follow any aggressive reversal a lot more easily. That didn't stop Royal from making me overshoot a couple times in the F/A-18 either though, cause, u know, real F-15 pilot and all that :D

 

 

All in all an absolute blast of a time where we both agreed that we learned something, myself esp. about at what speed to start the fight in the F-14.

[1Shot1KiLL]

lm owning everything in MP. wouldnt die once if l didnt want to. its a monster when used to its strenghts.! take off climb to 20 000 intercept a target. engage at 20 nm. go back rearm and intercept again. dont go in to the mountains and play the enemys game. just fly defancive cap. just like you would defend a carrier group out at sea ''FLAT TERAİN''

[budguy68]

lm owning everything in MP. wouldnt die once if l didnt want to. its a monster when used to its strenghts.! take off climb to 20 000 intercept a target. engage at 20 nm. go back rearm and intercept again. dont go in to the mountains and play the enemys game. just fly defancive cap. just like you would defend a carrier group out at sea ''FLAT TERAİN''

 

Thats cool

 

This other guy has a different playing style. He stays low but mostly strikes within 20-30 range, 20 is optimal.

 

Iam starting to thinkt he f14 is feasible, maybe its just me that sucks, i just started playing again lol

[Top Jockey]

So I just had the greatest of times with Royalwin dogfighting 1v1 on the Just Dogfights server!

 

Initially we (specifically I) had problems with keeping visual (and just my orientation in general) due to the fights being over water (I have to avoid over water fights due to my graphics settings making the ocean seem like just a blue sheet of paper, hence giving no way of judging own movement), but luckily we found a spot over land and then everything was good.

 

So, I might as well come out straight away and say that initially I had my butt handed to me on a platter, mainly for two significant reasons:

1. Turns out Royalwin is a former F-15 pilot!! (Felt a lot better about myself after he revealed that hahaha! :D )

2. The aircraft were at 50% fuel, so for the first few fights I was struggling to actually keep the speed low enough to be effective in the dogfight. (Im used to starting at 100%)

 

Poor excuses out of the way, after a few runs though I figured out how to best start my engagements and things evened out, and the conclusions Royal and I could draw were the same as the ones I've mentioned before:

1) In the horizontal the F-14 is king, when'ever Royal would engage in a purely horizontal turn fight I would steadly gain on him, esp. if I had forced him to ground level and made sure I didnt overspeed, then I would actually get on his tail rather quickly. However the F-15 was able to effectively negate this to a large extent by going vertical early in the fight, just as expected.

2) When in a tight spot the F-15 enjoys the advantage of being much more controllable in aggressive reversals, where'as the Tomcat at that point becomes quite the handful. Royal more times than one had me completely overshoot him as he performed what I can only describe as maneuvers belonging in von Richthofens flying circus :P

3) Flown right these two aircraft are very close to each other in terms of ACM, however with their main strengths differentiating from each other.

 

 

After this we tried the F/A-18 vs F-15, and this also pretty much ended in a tie, however it should be mentioned that during this part of our bouts we were to a large extend distracted by some goons shooting missiles straight at us into the 1v1 zone (not cool). But what we could deduce was that the F/A-18 has the advantage when things get REALLY slow, however the F-15 has little problem just speeding away should it find itself heading into a tough spot. An upwards spiral by the F-15 is almost impossible to do anything about in the F/A-18, and down low in a high rate turn fight I did find it harder to get on his tail in the F/A-18 than in the F-14. Once I was on his tail in the F/A-18 however, the carefree handling of the Hornet enabled me to follow any aggressive reversal a lot more easily. That didn't stop Royal from making me overshoot a couple times in the F/A-18 either though, cause, u know, real F-15 pilot and all that :D

 

 

All in all an absolute blast of a time where we both agreed that we learned something, myself esp. about at what speed to start the fight in the F-14.

 

Very good description - the kind of matters / analysis I appreciate the most !

[jcdata]

Hummingbird,

 

 

Did you save any tracks?

 

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[captain_dalan]

Tacview of the first F14vsF15 guns only fight (my tag is BRABUS):

 

Gbo3nlLXIME

 

Now that's a guy that can handle his kitty. Hat off to you, fine sir!

Now try keeping the merge at 420-450KIAS and see if that helps a bit. I am most curious of the results. I would fly with you, but unfortunately i'll be unable to do so for quite a while yet.

 

You haven't read any part of this thread have you?

 

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Ahh......but reading takes effort, doesn't it? Comprehending even more! :thumbup::music_whistling::smilewink:

[1Shot1KiLL]

Thats cool

 

This other guy has a different playing style. He stays low but mostly strikes within 20-30 range, 20 is optimal.

 

Iam starting to thinkt he f14 is feasible, maybe its just me that sucks, i just started playing again lol

 

when you are low the enemy can use the terain to defete the aim-54 before it goes pitbull. but if you are looking down in to the gaps of the hills from higher above then the enemy will have trouble hideing him self useing the terain. mind you the aim 54 goes high when you shoot so when it goes pitbull it is comeing down from above to hit the bandit that is trying to hide there selves in the terain. so not to easy to hide your self if a aim 54 goes pitbull on you,

 

like l said '' better if you dont fight in the hills :) its just a monster at flat terain. :megalol:

 

 

Feasable ? its the best out there man :) just splitS and go back home when you get to 12 miles to the merge and hear jester say SPLASH on your way home :)

Edited April 1, 2019 by 1Shot1KiLL

[Hummingbird]

Hummingbird,

 

 

Did you save any tracks?

 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

Unfortunately my tacview doesn't seem to want to save online tracks (the other one I got from Galm) :( I think I need to reinstall it. Is this a common problem?

[Hummingbird]

Now that's a guy that can handle his kitty. Hat off to you, fine sir!

Now try keeping the merge at 420-450KIAS and see if that helps a bit. I am most curious of the results.

 

Thank you for the kind words, but you should've seen how Royalwin flew that F15 today, eye watering stuff at times.

 

Took me until exactly what you just said above about the merge speed berfore I could start getting the better of him. Going above that 420-450 kts merely serves to widen your initial 180 too much, and with 50% fuel in a clean bird I'd be unable to slow down fast enough. So for the first few tries over dry land I was basically playing the Eagles game, i.e. high speed high rate turns on the verge of black out. He ate me alive.

 

The major reason for me ending up in this situation was that I was relieved of what I didn't realize had been a major crutch = the info bar. I had basically used it as a helmet mounted display to always have my speed & AoA readings easily at the ready. With that taken away I suddenly had to rely my on visual buffeting cues and quick heads down looks at the speed gage or AoA strip for the same information - all the while trying not to loose visual of the best damn F-15 jock I've ever faced! Hard lesson eventually learned, and near the end getting on his tail wasn't a big issue so long as he didn't drag the fight too high up (the cat simply turns better), however actually bagging him once there was a friggin nightmare! More times than one he ended up shooting me down through an overshoot eventhough seconds before I had him right where I wanted him (or so I thought!)

 

I would fly with you, but unfortunately i'll be unable to do so for quite a while yet.

 

You're always welcome Dalan, I'll send you an invite to our discord channel in a PM.

 

I hope you'll be able to fly again soon! :)

Edited April 2, 2019 by Hummingbird

[mytai01]

I keep getting beaten by F18s and F15s left and right. (play mostly on modern DDCS server) And when I look at the score board all the F15s and F18s have the most kills while the F14 players barely have any.

 

I thought it could be that the plane is new for some people but we are already getting past that stage.

 

The only time I am ever decent in multiple player is when i am on the F15.

 

What do you guys think? How does the F14 stand up to other fighters..?

 

That sounds like real life...F-15 drivers used to refer to the F-14 as the turkey...

[mytai01]

Any aircraft has it's strengths and weaknesses. Tactics are developed to maximize the one and minimize the other. If you don't know how to use it the way it's intended, then you will not be as successful as you could. With that being said, newer doesn't necessarily mean better...