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F-18 or F-14? Which is easioer to learn?


franx

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If you need to ask if F-18 or F-14, then the answer will always be F-18.

 

If you want to buy a car, and you have to ask if a Minivan or a Muscle car is the right thing for you, also, always go with the Minivan.

 

True, the F-18 and the Minivan are by far not as cool as the F-14 and the Muscle car, but when you realize that the F-14 does not have the airspeed on the HUD, and that your childseat does not fit in the Muscle car, you will be glad.

 

/QUOTE]

I can go with the muscle car = tomcat. But hornet = minivan? Really? Let's at least call it a BMW sports car. Then your analogy would be a little more credible. Minivan? Come on dude.

 

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I'm with you...don't get the muscle car : minivan analogy either but I have heard it before. I grew up in the 80's and 90's and lived right next to Oceana NAS. The Tomcat holds a special place in my heart. After flying it though, I find a lot may be legend and hype. It's performance is not what I grew up believing or was lead to believe by what I read online, at least when compared to other teen fighters, especially the Hornet.

 

The Hornet is an incredible high performance aircraft, and so was the Tomcat. However, I wonder what things would be like if the Hornet was in Top Gun and the Final Countdown instead...

 

I always have wondered why the Hornet was never as popular or as highly regarded. I find it to be one of the most capable and exceptional aircraft. Sure, it has it's weaknesses, but so does every aircraft in some way.


Edited by =BJM=

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I always have wondered why the Hornet was never as popular or as highly regarded. I find it to be one of the most capable and exceptional aircraft. Sure, it has it's weaknesses, but so does every aircraft in some way.

 

I'm not sure either. The Hornet is amazing, of course, but personaly I just don't like it that much and she is also not beautifull. (in my eyes)

The Hornet is mostly compared to a Minivan because it can do everything, but nothing perfect.

Fleet defender? F-14 had a higher Range with the Aim-54. Also the F-14 accelerates faster and is faster high.

CAS? Harrier and Warthog can carry much more ordnance, A10C has incredible long flighttime and is also armored.

Dogfight? No chance against a F-16.

AFAC? Shared workload in F-14.

SEAD? Yeah, maybe thats one thing she is very good in it.

Buddy refueling? That is something she can do good :). Leads me to that memes:

https://i.redd.it/rxtj866mr3dz.png xD

 

 

However, if I would need to make a serious guess:

 

When transition from the Cat to the Bug, you loose your buddy. You are used to fly with your better half and you had a shared workload.

One guy can concentrate on flying and looking in the air, while the other does all the radar stuff.

One guy can fly and deliver bombs, while the other can watch out for manpads and operate CM etc..

In a dogfight, 4 eyes does not loose so easy a bogey as 2 eyes does.

As AFAC you can keep your situational awareness and concentrate on flying and everything else, while your RIO is doing is job and cueing the bomb deliverer...

 

So, what happend to the RIOs? Don't know, but I'm sure they have not been that satisfying.

And the pilots? Double workload, more risk.

 

The radar in the cat is amazing, but it is a full time job to operate it. Not sure if the Hornet is on par with all that functions, but I don't think so.

The Aim-120 does not even have in dreams the range the Aim-54 had. (Yeah, I know, only used as bombs, but hey, we are speaking about things in your head).

The DLC is AMAZING, I'm sure pilots who have been new to the bug are missing that.

Going from the B or D to a F-18 must feel like running on only one engine...

The cat has a higher range, and also the fuel tanks are not taking away any possible armament places.

The Cat can carry generally speaking more armaments then the Bug. Only excpetion are the double racks on the Hornet.

And then, every two seconds something makes "tüdellitüdü"...

 

This are a lot of downsides for the F-18, while the upsides are quite short:

Better nose control and easy to operate FBW

JDAM

Mavericks

JHMCS

Aim-9X

 

However, the F-18 is newer and the F-14 is just an old aircraft and her time is over.

Of course, there are two main things that hyped the Tomcat so much:

The seeping wings, and of course, Top Gun.

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Addition to that:

 

 

The Bug has huge fuel problems. You need a lot flying before you could enter combat. Cause you cant start from the carrier with full load and max fuel. So you first need to learn air-to-air-refueling before you could go into any engagements with a full loadout.

 

 

Also you must know what you want to do and what your enemy could thow on you. The Bug cant dogfight with bombs under there wings. So if an enemy comes near you you need to jettison the payload. Bye Bye mission target.

 

 

 

 

 

The Cat just dont care about that.

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...

 

There is so much wrong in this that I literally don't have time to reply to all of it. We get it, you prefer the Tomcat, nothing wrong with that, but you need to stop making up random falsehoods about the Hornet just because you don't like it.

 

No chance against an F16 in BFM? Ridiculous. Every pilot that has ever flown both and given a public opinion on the matter of F18 vs F16 has said that in the hands of 2 capable pilots they are very evenly matched, the Viper is more powerful and has a better turn rate, but the Hornet has much better low speed handling and nose authority. It's a tossup when you compare the jets when piloted by equivalent skilled pilots.

 

Harrier carries more ordnance? Only in DCS where people overload the crap out of their jets, IRL the Hornet can carry a bigger usable load and can carry it farther than the Harrier. In actual service, as in real wars where CAS happened (OIF, OEF, etc), Harriers were carrying 1-2 bombs each, total, 2 bombs per jet, that's it. The A10 can't land on a carrier so that's a bad comparison, but of course the A10 is the ideal CAS machine.

 

and so on...

 

Good grief.


Edited by gekoiq
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Point out what is wrong if you like, but even at that points you mentioned I did not said anything else then you...

 

However, both are great jets and everyone will prefer one over the other.

But if it comes to the qurstion which one is easier to learn, you definitely have to say the F18.

Maybe their systems are deeper then the cat's, but you don't need to dive that deep to have your first successes.

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The 14 is easier to learn from the pilot seat. The 18 isn't too far behind. The 14 has a steeper flying learning curve since there is no FBW, but as far as launching missles and dropping bombs, the 14 from the pilot seat is pretty simple - jester does everything for you. All you have to do is fly the plane and pull the trigger and toggle between AA, AG, etc... Its a tough question to answer since its really comparing apples to oranges. The two planes are not similar. The 14 was designed as an interceptor with the intent to take as much workload off the pilot so they can fly the jet - the rio/jester, does all the navigation, fences in your weapons, controls the radar, controls the lantirn targeting pod, etc... HB did a really great job in maintaining the discrepancy between the pilot and the rio on the 14 module. The 18 is better compared to a similar multirole single-seat plane that we currently have in dcs, like the harrier or a10c. If you primarily fly multiplayer, then just invest in the 14, since it really is a module made for cooperative simming. If you just want to fly single player missions against AI etc.. then you'll be happier taking the time to learn the hornet.

 

You will feel disappointed as far the engines go in the hornet. The tomcat has some serious power. You can really turn the tables on a WVR engagement pretty quick by just using the tomcats power to extend and get some serious height advantage - not sure this will be the case with the A variant due to underpowered engines subject to compressor stalls.

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LOL! Love them both but handling is quite different.

Systems for each comes with seat time, one is no harder than the other.

 

But For me...

 

F18: Ferrari

 

F14: Truck


Edited by MegOhm_SD

 

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Besides what has been already stated ( f18 being easier to fly) the hornet despite being a different class of airplane is at the same time a much more modern experience than the tomcat. Sure the tomcat has best standoff capability with its awg9 radar and aim54, but otherwise the hornet has alot more going for it

 

If you want a cold war bird with more old school avionics the F14. If you want a 21st century modern multirole experience the hornet.

 

Sure there is in a way less to learn if just piloting a tomcat since jester ( or human) does alot of stuff for you but while the Hornets single seat position suite means learning systems and weapons and navigation being the sole operator but at the the same time workload is very much manageable due to digitization. its avionics functions are logically laid out and user friendly.

 

It is overall a more modern ( and a proper multi-role) aircraft and is arguably the master of wvr combat given its high nose point authority, even more so considering it has aim9x and jhmcs. Furthermore its amraam capability and being able to hold up to 10 of them its still a very capable in BVR even though it doesnt have the raw standoff range of a Tomcat/.

 

Honestly It would have been a tougher choice if it were the F14D variation vs the FA18C.


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It would have been a tougher choice if it were the f14d varation vs the fa18c.

 

Absolutely.

 

I for one love a beautiful modern avionics office.

They are just thrilling to work in. Pretty why modern American jet fighters will always have a special place in my heart.

 

The Hornet is amazing and deep in systems. Relevant flight information presented to the pilot in user friendly manner.

 

I am finding the F-14 Tomcat quite interesting and challenging. In all my flight sim days coming from the EF2000 Typhoon, F-22 Raptor, A-10C, Janes F-15, F-16, never flew any aircraft uniquely different in design, flight system and dual pilot role like the F-14 Tomcat.

Taking the experience with the F-14 quite well so far though tough honestly with the HUD, constant system scan and having to trim regularly.

 

The good thing for me is that when the F-14B get too tough and challenging especially, I have the ever friendly Hornet to run to and get my feel good sensation back.

 

The alternate experience is really been worthwhile.


Edited by Eaglewings

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To me, it isn't a choice between which one, it's only a choice of which I want to learn first. It would be a sin to not have both the F/A-18 and the F-14!

 

That said, one of the things I'm really liking about F-14, as already mentioned, is the lessened workload on the pilot. Sometimes planes in DCS can be pretty mouse-click or keyboard intensive, which at times can be awkward and distracting especially if you are trying to really get good technique down. It isn't a big deal, but as someone very much in the learning process of carrier ops and operating within a squadron, being able to concentrate on just the flying and fundamental technique while either a human or Jester handles certain aspects goes a long way towards easing the learning curve for me. I'll get to learning the F/A-18, in depth, in time, but I think that for someone like me who is very new to the proper operation of carrier jets, the F-14 was the right choice for me to do first. With the F-14, more than a RIO that helps us fight the bandits, we can literally have an experienced human instructor in the back seat. At my noob level of knowledge, I think choosing the F-14 to start with will make me a better virtual naval aviator in the long run.


Edited by Ornithopter
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But For me...

 

F18: Ferrari

 

F14: Truck

 

+1

 

Now this is a great analogy. The Hornet is high performance, quick and nimble. The Tomcat is rugged and all about raw power and brute strength.

 

It would have been a tougher choice if it were the f14d varation vs the fa18c.

 

I agree. I really wish Heatblur would have decided to make the F-14D instead as it would fit much better into the current DCS environment. I also believe that the DFCS would translate better to a desktop simulator than the AFCS does.

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  • 4 months later...

You Guys Rock

 

New member here. Been eyeballing the F-18 vs f-14 for a few weeks. I've been keeping an eye on the discussions and found this thread to be very informative! So I took the dive and jumped on the F-18 last night. WOW! Very glad I did - it's like night and day between it and the F-15. AND used my ED Miles for added discount on the F-16 ;).

 

So thanks for the input here.

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I think the Hornet is an amazing aircraft. The computer-assisted dynamic instability FCS allows you to focus on getting the aircraft where to go and not worry about pushing past the envelope, making some crazy wonderful maneuvering easily within reach once you have learned the basics. It corrects for lots of beginner mistakes and lets you just deal with the fun parts of flying without needing too much finesse on the stick. The HUD also gives you all the information that you need at a glance --- speed, altitude, vertical speed, AoA, G's, etc. etc., --- and with the helmet HUD, you get this even when you are tracking the bandit waaaaaaay off-boresight. Learning to fly it is not only easier, there's a lot less to learn (in terms of actual flying).

 

And that's the problem.

 

In the Hornet, it is very easy to pick up some bad habits without even knowing they are some bad habits, such as way too violent/aggressive control movements, because the aircraft corrects for you. And you may never actually pick up some good habits, such as a coordinated turns or good instrument scans, because you don't need to. If you rely on learning to fly the Hornet as your main way to learn to "fly", you will be fine if you stick to modern 4/5 gen aircraft with computer-assisted flight controls and excellent HUD's that give you all the information you need at a glance. But you will find it several times more difficult (IMHO) to break those bad habits and learn good habits if not.

 

The Tomcat has a steep learning curve. And she will punish you --- hard --- if you fall off. Broken wings, flat spins, stalls, GLOC's, adverse yaw, etc. etc. You will crash and crash and crash. And when you are not crashing, you will wobble and slide all over the sky. You will find yourself wallowing like a stuck pig as you are ballistic nose-up with no speed and movement. You will find yourself totally losing track of your speed or elevation or rate of climb or AoA during critical parts of flight (BFM, landing). You will feel foolish. You will feel stupid. You will cry a lot.

 

BUT, in the end, you WILL learn to fly. As in actually interact with the wind and the air to change the motion of your aircraft by manipulating control surfaces, as opposed to using a joystick to tell the computer where to take the aircraft and let it figure out how it gets there.

 

There is a saying, "learned first, remembered best".

 

I think that learning to fly on the Hornet is a mistake because it is more difficult to break a bad habit and learn a good one than just learning the good one in the first place.

 

So, I think your question ("which is easier to learn") misses the point.

 

I think you should ask, "which is better to learn first?".

 

And I think the answer to that is, clearly, the Tomcat.

 

Don't get me wrong, if you were to ask "what is the best aircraft to win in BFM or BVR or whatever", I really am not sure that the answer is so simple (and I might even put good money on the Tomcat being the wrong answer, especially after the F-16 comes out). But if learning to fly is your goal, then the answer is the Tomcat. And all those flying skills you learn will not just make you a good Tomcat pilot, but a great F/A-18, F-16, F-15, Su-27, Mig-29, Spitfire, etc. etc. etc. etc. pilot as well.


Edited by Bearfoot
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LOL! Love them both but handling is quite different.

Systems for each comes with seat time, one is no harder than the other.

 

But For me...

 

F18: Ferrari

 

F14: Truck

 

I`d say

 

 

F18: 2019 Porsche Cayman 718, small, fast, Sillicon Valley on fat wheels

 

 

 

porsche-718-cayman-gts-c914515092018205700_1.jpg

 

F14: 911 RSR 1974: sexy, brutal, raw power, high workload demands but delivers, targa edition is Jester chickens out

 

 

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Since the Tomcat is released the Hornet gets a lot of hate, which is sad since that's not really justified in my opinion, and because there really is no comparison. It's just preference, and also progress and you see that in various stuff like the FBW for instance.

 

I really just don't understand the amount of hate towards the Hornet since the release of the Tomcat.

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My vote goes to the F/A-18C as well. To me, its avionics suite is just beautiful, logical and easy to understand and get competent in. Everything is presented in a user-friendly way, in a minimalist and clean cockpit. In time, by devoting more time and getting more experience in, dealing with the various systems will become second nature and you'll be fully set up for your mission within a few minutes, even before taking off.

 

A huge advantage is the amazing situational awareness you get though the SA page and once the A2A radar gets some more love and AZ/EL page gets implemented, it'll only increase survivability and capability. Same goes for the MIDS radio.

 

The F-14 is a different experience. It's massive, heavy and powerful. I would say it offered a more immersive experience, if not for the fact that you need to deal with Jester. The AI is good, but unfortunately, I do think it's very far from being a believable RIO. You have to micromanage him too much and he doesn't take initiative nearly as much as a real RIO should. You can offset that by flying online with a good human RIO, but for single player, I did find the Tomcat disappointing because of the forced shared workload, even through the use of Voice Attack with VAICOM Pro and the AIRIO extension.

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In terms of systems the tomcat is a bit easier to learn. But God help you if you don't have a RIO. The Jester menu is annoying as hell to use despite that it is intuitive. It just takes too much time to tell him what to do. But the Hornet is a bit more complicated to learn in terms of systems. But it is actually intuitive and you can often figure things out by yourself. But with the Hornet, you can turn on your auto throttle and point your aircraft wherever and let go of the stick and throttle. The fly by wire will hold your speed and general attitude. So you can mess around with the systems for your weapons much easier. You don't even need autopilot.

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FWIW, I just couldn't get on with the Tomcat at all. By all accounts, HB have done an amazing job, but I'm afraid the whole Jester/RIO thing just killed it for me. Couldn't get to grips with it at all, but I may revisit it in the future.

I love the Hornet!

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I'm a DCS noob myself so I'm gonna gove my opinion also from a noob perspective

 

so I bought the 2. the F-18 because it's a multirole you can do a lot of stuff with it so all round its the best bang for the buck at the time. and I also bought the F-14 simply because it's a F-14

 

at first, I feel like the F-14 would be a daunting task in trying to learn the aircraft but boy i was wrong. and here is why from a noob perspective.

 

For A2A ACM. lets say you manage to lock a plane, then you have to ID it using an IFF. the IFF on the F-18 comes in a symbol to let you know that whether is an enemy or a foe. now for me as a noob, this took me a couple of seconds to process the information whether or not I'm locking a friend or foe. in the F-14 I can just switch the VDI to TV. I can see what aircraft I'm locking at. also getting into the many ACM mode, the F-14 is much more straight forward. while in the F-18 if you want to go to Vertical scan Mode. you have to go to Boresight, then to Wide accusation, then Vertical scan(i might be wrong cause i'm still a noob)

 

BVR, you have to do it by yourself in the F-18. which mean slewing the TDC, interrogating a target and lock it up. while in the F-14, Jester would take care of that for you in TWS auto mode. any target that shows up will instantly get a TWS lock and prioritize it order so all you have to do is get inside the launch range and fire

 

and for the CAS F-18 wins hands down. you have a lot of weapon variation that you can use compare to F-14. however that' doesn't mean that you can't do a precision strike.

 

for campaign content, I played both "Hornet 1989" for the F-18 and "Caged the bear" for the F-14 that comes with the module. and I can say for sure that the F-14 campaign is a lot more noob friendly than the F-18 one

 

although I have to say. the flight characteristic is a bit difficult for the F-14. but because I have some previous experience from other sims. I know when I'm about to leave the flight enveloped.

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I think the Hornet is an amazing aircraft. The computer-assisted dynamic instability FCS allows you to focus on getting the aircraft where to go and not worry about pushing past the envelope, making some crazy wonderful maneuvering easily within reach once you have learned the basics. It corrects for lots of beginner mistakes and lets you just deal with the fun parts of flying without needing too much finesse on the stick. The HUD also gives you all the information that you need at a glance --- speed, altitude, vertical speed, AoA, G's, etc. etc., --- and with the helmet HUD, you get this even when you are tracking the bandit waaaaaaay off-boresight. Learning to fly it is not only easier, there's a lot less to learn (in terms of actual flying).

 

And that's the problem.

 

In the Hornet, it is very easy to pick up some bad habits without even knowing they are some bad habits, such as way too violent/aggressive control movements, because the aircraft corrects for you. And you may never actually pick up some good habits, such as a coordinated turns or good instrument scans, because you don't need to. If you rely on learning to fly the Hornet as your main way to learn to "fly", you will be fine if you stick to modern 4/5 gen aircraft with computer-assisted flight controls and excellent HUD's that give you all the information you need at a glance. But you will find it several times more difficult (IMHO) to break those bad habits and learn good habits if not.

 

The Tomcat has a steep learning curve. And she will punish you --- hard --- if you fall off. Broken wings, flat spins, stalls, GLOC's, adverse yaw, etc. etc. You will crash and crash and crash. And when you are not crashing, you will wobble and slide all over the sky. You will find yourself wallowing like a stuck pig as you are ballistic nose-up with no speed and movement. You will find yourself totally losing track of your speed or elevation or rate of climb or AoA during critical parts of flight (BFM, landing). You will feel foolish. You will feel stupid. You will cry a lot.

 

BUT, in the end, you WILL learn to fly. As in actually interact with the wind and the air to change the motion of your aircraft by manipulating control surfaces, as opposed to using a joystick to tell the computer where to take the aircraft and let it figure out how it gets there.

 

There is a saying, "learned first, remembered best".

 

I think that learning to fly on the Hornet is a mistake because it is more difficult to break a bad habit and learn a good one than just learning the good one in the first place.

 

So, I think your question ("which is easier to learn") misses the point.

 

I think you should ask, "which is better to learn first?".

 

And I think the answer to that is, clearly, the Tomcat.

 

Don't get me wrong, if you were to ask "what is the best aircraft to win in BFM or BVR or whatever", I really am not sure that the answer is so simple (and I might even put good money on the Tomcat being the wrong answer, especially after the F-16 comes out). But if learning to fly is your goal, then the answer is the Tomcat. And all those flying skills you learn will not just make you a good Tomcat pilot, but a great F/A-18, F-16, F-15, Su-27, Mig-29, Spitfire, etc. etc. etc. etc. pilot as well.

 

 

This is why I am glad I learned to fly WW2 birds in simulators before anything else. Makes flying everything really easy. Jumping in an F-18 is a revelation. I barely have to fly the thing and can just focus on the systems, I am really itching to get my hands on the F-14.

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Of course, salt to taste. To me, F/A-18 is easier and quite fun... but the F-14 is immensely satisfying to learn and fly. The more you learn about the F-14 the more exciting it is and the satisfying it is just to learn something new about it each day. Heatblur, in my opinion, not only hit it out of the ball park. They hit it so hard and fast that it shot out of the ball park and over two adjacent parks 10 miles away!

 

Easy, no. Satisfying and enjoyable, absolutely.

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