MiG-29S TWS DUAL and R-77 not very realistic..?!

[Satarosa]

For what in DCS WORLD when a target activates its jamming, it is almost impossible to use the TWS DUAL?

 

While in reality the R-77 is just guiding itself on enemy jamming .. :huh:

 

In the various documentation it is clearly indicated that the specialty of the R-77 is to lock itself on a target that uses jamming!!

 

"Technologically, the R-77 is an active-radar homing missile, meaning that the seeker itself has a small radar that sends out radar pulses to detect the target and then uses that information to home in on the target. The current R-77 and R-77-1 use mechanically directed doppler radar without AESA, while rumored future variants will use AESA, in which the radar beam can be electronically directed with greater precision and speed (the use of AESA does not preclude the use of mechanical direction; modern Russian radars have been seen with both). The missiles also possess inertial guidance. Aerodynamically, the R-77 is distinctive among air-to-air missiles in that it uses grid (lattice) fins, an innovation that greatly increases the surface area versus traditional fins. This allows the R-77 to maneuver at higher angles of attack. These fins are also foldable allowing the R-77 to be placed on internal missile bays of some aircraft. The R-77 also uses a laser proximity fuze, in contrast to the AIM-120, which uses a radar proximity fuze. The laser fuze is immune to ECM by design principle.."

 

"R-77 Missile improvements (Flaming Cliffs 3)

 

Obviously having passive tracking (homing on ECM/emitter) could be used to query any change in return to the active tracking..."

 

 

"It is interesting to see how a missile with a passive channel on its seeker would interact against an emitter with so called LPI modes ."

Edited April 24, 2019 by Satarosa

[GGTharos]

HoJ is not that simple, it depends heavily on exactly what the jammer is trying to do. There's no HoJ against certain jamming types. For some, you simple cannot lock on, for others, they provide false information causing the missile to fly places that aren't the target.

[Satarosa]

 

The difference with an AIM-120C is that the R-77 has a lower range, but a higher capacity to resist at ECM Jamming, and even to use these for a pasif guidance to the target !!!

[GGTharos]

Lol :). AIM-120 always had more capacity for everything compared to the 77.

[Satarosa]

Lol :). AIM-120 always had more capacity for everything compared to the 77.

 

In DCS WORLD, yes ..

 

But in the real world, according to many analysts from sources and experts, the R-77 has a better resistance to jamming ECM than the AIM-120C !? :detective_2:

[AeriaGloria]

It’s clearly explained in the manual TWS2 does not work with jamming, it is too resource intensive. If they jam use regular TWS. HOJ can only be used in STT on a countermeasure strobe, thus one at a time.

[Satarosa]

It’s clearly explained in the manual TWS2 does not work with jamming, it is too resource intensive. If they jam use regular TWS. HOJ can only be used in STT on a countermeasure strobe, thus one at a time.

 

I'm not sure in reality is like that, TWS DUAL is most of the time usless on DCS WORLD..

[Vatikus]

WCS in FC3 is simplified and thus one should not expect proper simulation as that's not the ED's goal with these planes. Sad but true, but once you go over this, you learn to compensate for such quirks in fight.

[AeriaGloria]

I still don’t think it’s a capability of the real plane. TWS2 is just not available with ECM directed at you. One missile can have good countermeasure resistance that does not mean the radar is able to guide two of them. During initial TWS the seeker is off, all guidance depends on host radar. If the host radar can’t guide two missiles under heavy ECM than there is nothing that can be done. There is no way to HOJ and TWS2 at the same time real or simulated it just does not make sense.

[Vatikus]

How TWS mode is nonfunctional in presence of jammer the way it is done in DCS 29/27 is simply madeup for various reasons known only to ED. And since there is no interest nor plans from ED to do all these more realistically, it is pointless to wonder why and how...

[GGTharos]

In the real world, the AIM-120C is a decade more advanced than the R-77. And that was when the AIM-120C first came out. Electronics wise the AIM-120C is more advanced, this includes ECM/ECCM etc. Maybe your 'analysts' and 'experts' aren't what they claim to be - quite simply the level of technology of the R-77 is less than that of the AIM-120C.

 

The R-77-1 is a different beast, but very little is known about it.

 

In DCS WORLD, yes ..

 

But in the real world, according to many analysts from sources and experts, the R-77 has a better resistance to jamming ECM than the AIM-120C !? :detective_2:

[GGTharos]

The reason is that the real aircraft's radar processor could not deal with it. This is fine for the original flanker/mig radar, but incorrect for the APG-63, MiG-29S (At least the supposed radar upgrade we're supposed to have in FC3) and probably the very first upgrade to the Flanker radar dealt with this (faster processor).

 

I can't speak to the MiG-29S radar, since we know so little of it, but I know that the RL APG-63 will track jamming strobes fine in TWS ... it doesn't need to switch to STT.

 

What you're seeing in-game is the result of the shared radar model in the FC3 aircraft, IMHO.

 

How TWS mode is nonfunctional in presence of jammer the way it is done in DCS 29/27 is simply madeup for various reasons known only to ED. And since there is no interest nor plans from ED to do all these more realistically, it is pointless to wonder why and how...

[GGTharos]

Most people don't have a clue about what HoJ is, really - I barely have an idea. These missiles don't 'lock onto the jammer', they're locking onto RF emitted by the jammer that LOOKS like energy from the guidance radar, be it from the launching aircraft or the missile itself if it is an active radar missile.

 

HoJ is the continuation of an attack with degraded data, and that's assuming that the jammer is effectively a repeater/noise jammer and not something that'll break-lock (you can't lock onto it so you can't HoJ. You'll have interrupted guidance, and supporting that might be your 'ECM resistance'), or a jammer that will provide a clean signal that might not look like ECM, but actually provides false data such as a wildly incorrect closure rate which will mess with the APN algorithm.

 

So, what about TWS? If it's an angle-only strobe (denied range), TWS can track it an angle-only track. If the ECM is intermittent or does not respond to TWS tracking well, then it can be tracked as a regular track probably.

 

In any case, what we have today in FC3 aircraft is the equivalent of a constant-on, stand-off-jammer and not a self-protect jammer. Full fidelity aircraft aren't doing much better either, simply because the various ECM techniques, their effects and corresponding ECCM are not simulated.

 

I still don’t think it’s a capability of the real plane. TWS2 is just not available with ECM directed at you. One missile can have good countermeasure resistance that does not mean the radar is able to guide two of them. During initial TWS the seeker is off, all guidance depends on host radar. If the host radar can’t guide two missiles under heavy ECM than there is nothing that can be done. There is no way to HOJ and TWS2 at the same time real or simulated it just does not make sense.

[Alfa]

The reason is that the real aircraft's radar processor could not deal with it. This is fine for the original flanker/mig radar, but incorrect for the APG-63, MiG-29S (At least the supposed radar upgrade we're supposed to have in FC3) and probably the very first upgrade to the Flanker radar dealt with this (faster processor).

 

I can't speak to the MiG-29S radar, since we know so little of it, but I know that the RL APG-63 will track jamming strobes fine in TWS ... it doesn't need to switch to STT.

 

What you're seeing in-game is the result of the shared radar model in the FC3 aircraft, IMHO.

 

There is a three-way switch(АП - ОТКЛ - АПК) on the MiG-29 radar panel, that sets how the SNP(TWS) mode operates in the presence of jamming. I cannot remember the details, but "ОТКЛ"(OFF) is the default position for normal operation, while the others are for trying to lock on to a jamming contact by other means - i.e. in the real aircraft there other options than just jumping out of TWS and enter STT.

 

I think Vatikus knows more about this than I do, but just doesn't bother explaining it, since ED has said that there are no plans to change anything in relation to the system's complex.

 

Besides, as you said, there is the question of the simple ECM modelling in general.

[AeriaGloria]

Thanks for the info GG and Alfa!