G940 - Force Feedback - discussion

[fred41]

Hello Labuzan,

 

i did'nt tested FS2020 yet, so i can't say if it supports MS's 'ForceFeedback API'.

 

But SimFFB is mean't to be used in the background of applications/games that does'nt use the FF-API itself, so i would assume,

that FS2020 is initializing (and probably supporting the whole FF-API) at start and hence SimFFB is loosing the access to the API (only one can use this API at a time).

[AeriaGloria]

Hello Labuzan,

 

i did'nt tested FS2020 yet, so i can't say if it supports MS's 'ForceFeedback API'.

 

But SimFFB is mean't to be used in the background of applications/games that does'nt use the FF-API itself, so i would assume,

that FS2020 is initializing (and probably supporting the whole FF-API) at start and hence SimFFB is loosing the access to the API (only one can use this API at a time).

 

All I get what’s just basic centering

[Labuzan]

All I get what’s just basic centering

 

Hello,

yes AeriaGolria, only basic centering, but very hard !

So, i launch SimFFB after each FFS openning and centering is softer.

 

Thanks fred & AeriaGlolria.

[Bombadil]

Hardcoded FF / Rumble effects

 

First of all, many thanks for keeping improving the device support. Your work is truly appreciated.

 

 

I'm currently playing Star Wars Squadrons using your firmware and the total lack of any FF or Rumble effects from the game is a total disappointment.

 

I managed to get FF / Rumble when firing with the joystick's trigger, emulating a 360 gamepad using X360CE. But then the throttle doesn't work as it should, because instead of being a precise value depending on the thottle's position, it just accelerates when the throttle is between the middle-top range and decelerates between the middle-bottom range, as a gamepad's left stick do.

 

And the game doesn't allow a mix of different inputs like gamepad+joystick or gamepad+throttle. It switches from one to another and makes the game a stuttery mess...

 

 

So... Would it be possible to hardcode in the firmware a FF / Rumble effect activated by the joystick's trigger, like many games do by default with the gamepad's rumble when firing its trigger? then the many games that doesn't support FF would have at least some basic effect, which makes a lot for immersion.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Bombadil

[KriX]

Hi @fred41 I am also a Star Wars Squadrons player that has returned to my G940 - thank you so much for your continued improvements to this wonderful product!

 

However, I have the same problem as below:

FS2020 & G940

 

Hello,

 

I am new French user of this forum and have been using FS since its inception.

 

Unfortunately, FS2020 does not use the FFB and the joystick G940 stay in very hard force, in both axes at all times, main "on" or "off"

 

I tested the modified firmware in its latest version with the Simffb and everything is correct again:

- Hard joystick in hand "off"

- soft joystick in hand "on"

This is perfect for the moment (thanks you so much), by reaching "maybe" an evolution of FS2020.

 

But I have to reload the SimFFB after each FS2020 opening.

 

Is this normal?

Thanks for your help

 

(Sorry for my poor English)

 

I have no tape and when I am holding the stick it goes limp. When I let it go it returns to centre and if I use 2 fingers to push it, I meet resistance. If I am in the Logitech Gaming Software -> Device -> Game controllers -> Joystick screen, I can push the hat and the stick moves. When I hold the stick, then I meet resistance when pushing.

 

 

 

... check the ffb_experimental branch of my repository:

 

https://github.com/fred41/G940-firmware-fixes/tree/ffb_experimental

 

... and better don't torture your G940 gimbal to much, with this heavy grip :cry:

 

I had a look at the sources and both experimental and the root branch seem to have the deadmans switch to active also

 

 

/* set the default deadman switch state active, to simulate 'hands on' in case grip pcb is disconnected */

*(uint16_t*)&buf[REL(0x1F46)] = 0x21C0;

 

How do I get it to give me force feedback when I am holding the stick?

 

Thanks in advance!

[fred41]

Hardcoded FF / Rumble effects

 

First of all, many thanks for keeping improving the device support. Your work is truly appreciated.

 

 

I'm currently playing Star Wars Squadrons using your firmware and the total lack of any FF or Rumble effects from the game is a total disappointment.

 

I managed to get FF / Rumble when firing with the joystick's trigger, emulating a 360 gamepad using X360CE. But then the throttle doesn't work as it should, because instead of being a precise value depending on the thottle's position, it just accelerates when the throttle is between the middle-top range and decelerates between the middle-bottom range, as a gamepad's left stick do.

 

And the game doesn't allow a mix of different inputs like gamepad+joystick or gamepad+throttle. It switches from one to another and makes the game a stuttery mess...

 

 

So... Would it be possible to hardcode in the firmware a FF / Rumble effect activated by the joystick's trigger, like many games do by default with the gamepad's rumble when firing its trigger? then the many games that doesn't support FF would have at least some basic effect, which makes a lot for immersion.

 

I think it is not a good idea to implement additional FF-effects in the firmware.

Try to imagine the following:

The controller inside the G940 is a little 72MHz cpu and is already busy with processing all the inputs and the calculation of up to four condition effects.

Apart from that, i don't have access the source code, that means i am coding in machine code ...

 

So i am sorry i can't really help you.

[fred41]

Hi @fred41 I am also a Star Wars Squadrons player that has returned to my G940 - thank you so much for your continued improvements to this wonderful product!

 

However, I have the same problem as below:

 

 

I have no tape and when I am holding the stick it goes limp. When I let it go it returns to centre and if I use 2 fingers to push it, I meet resistance. If I am in the Logitech Gaming Software -> Device -> Game controllers -> Joystick screen, I can push the hat and the stick moves. When I hold the stick, then I meet resistance when pushing.

 

 

 

I had a look at the sources and both experimental and the root branch seem to have the deadmans switch to active also

 

 

/* set the default deadman switch state active, to simulate 'hands on' in case grip pcb is disconnected */

*(uint16_t*)&buf[REL(0x1F46)] = 0x21C0;

 

How do I get it to give me force feedback when I am holding the stick?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Hi KriX,

 

as said, SimFFB is mean't to run in the background of non FFB applications, to adjust 'conditions effects' (like 'spring' and 'damper').

 

Your 'deadman switch' seems to work as expected. The part of the patch you mentioned, will only have an effect, if you modified/disabled your sensor electronic.

 

You will get FFB effects (other than conditional effects) only, if an FFB enabled application requests/control them.

 

You can generate some of the available FFB effects on windows with a little FFB Testtool:

 

https://fs-force.com/support.php#ForceTest

[KriX]

 

Hi KriX,

 

as said, SimFFB is mean't to run in the background of non FFB applications, to adjust 'conditions effects' (like 'spring' and 'damper').

 

Your 'deadman switch' seems to work as expected. The part of the patch you mentioned, will only have an effect, if you modified/disabled your sensor electronic.

 

You will get FFB effects (other than conditional effects) only, if an FFB enabled application requests/control them.

 

You can generate some of the available FFB effects on windows with a little FFB Testtool:

 

https://fs-force.com/support.php#ForceTest

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer @fred41 ,

 

I would have thought changing the values in the LGS / Global Device Settings would change the strength of the spring whilst holding it, but that doesn't seem to make any difference until I have started simFFB.

 

After having started simFFB I can hold the stick and have resistance. Starting LGS allows me to set the global effects strength in the profiler.

 

Now, oddly enough, if I close both simFFB and LGS (right click in start bar), the effect stays (I can hold the stick and it will not go limp).

 

So in order to play any game I need to first start Logitech Gaming Software (LGS) + simFFB so that the stick will push back when I am holding it?

[fred41]

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer @fred41 ,

 

I would have thought changing the values in the LGS / Global Device Settings would change the strength of the spring whilst holding it, but that doesn't seem to make any difference until I have started simFFB.

 

After having started simFFB I can hold the stick and have resistance. Starting LGS allows me to set the global effects strength in the profiler.

 

Now, oddly enough, if I close both simFFB and LGS (right click in start bar), the effect stays (I can hold the stick and it will not go limp).

 

So in order to play any game I need to first start Logitech Gaming Software (LGS) + simFFB so that the stick will push back when I am holding it?

 

 

Below you see the flow of FFB events send from your application (game, simFFB or FFB Testtool or ....) to your G940 device:

 

| application/FFB API | ----> | driver (windows) | ----> | G940 |

 

The driver translates the FFB-API events to USB commands the G940 can understand.

LGS settings (slider, checkboxes) are affecting this translation, by adjusting the scale of the parameters in the driver.

 

This LGS settings are persistent, this mean's you only have to do that once and the driver will use the last settings in the future.

All FFB events parameter are scaled according your LGS/driver settings. Example:

 

SimFFB 50% spring force, LGS 50% global, 100% spring ==> 25% of the spring force is send to the G940.

 

(this above is from my personal experience and hence perhaps totaly wrong ;))

 

Finally, if you fresh plug your G940 and no FFB application is running, you will only see/feel the spring forces set in the firmware.

This spring forces are stronger for 'hand off' and very soft for 'hand on' stick. This makes sense in my opinion,

because this allows us to use the G940 in applications without FFB support more comfortable.

[KriX]

 

[...]

 

Finally, if you fresh plug your G940 and no FFB application is running, you will only see/feel the spring forces set in the firmware.

This spring forces are stronger for 'hand off' and very soft for 'hand on' stick. This makes sense in my opinion,

because this allows us to use the G940 in applications without FFB support more comfortable.

 

Sorry for the late reply, I've stuck behind a TV screen for the past few days...

 

Thank you, now I understand what is happening! I like the soft spring that you have set it to in the firmware but would personally like more centring force, because I find it very hard to find the centre and so I usually overcorrect when going back from stick deflection. Runing SimFFB with default settings gives me extra strength everywhere and writes the registers on the stick temporarily untill reboot, which is why it stays at extra strength even after closing SimFFB / LGS.

 

So to change permanently I'd have to play with

 

*(uint32_t*)&buf[REL(FF_COMB_PARAMS_BASE)] = 0x3F2F1F00;

*(uint32_t*)&buf[REL(FF_COMB_PARAMS_BASE + FF_PARAMS_XY_OFFS)] = 0x3F2F1F00;

 

and recompile + reload fw

 

or just save the setting and start SimFFB/LGS at boot.

[jib]

I know this is a pretty old thread, but I just wanted to say thank you! I thought I had installed the patch months ago but noticed I still had reversal bug on the throttle,  I didn't follow the instructions closely enough (I thought you just had to have the files in the same directory and run the locitech patch, but you have to run Fred's patch to patch the locitech updater.) I was having real trouble aerial refuelling before with the throttle jumping around with the reversal bug, now I still can't aerial reful, but now I have no excuse!

[STONE SKY]

Friends, forgive me for that question is not really for this topic. As a result of an unpleasant story, I lost the plastic case of my G940 joystick. Guys, if any of you have a broken joystick, or spare parts from the G940 - I'm interested in a plastic stick. All electronics are fine. It would be cool if one of you can help me save my favorite device.

[RealDCSpilot]

@STONE SKYPM me, i have lots of spare parts now.

[wfox]

I am late to the party, but First of all - thanks a million for fixing G940 firmware, Sir!
I was flying with the original firmware for a long time (more than a decade) and always was not happy with a precision of that thing, but as a former glider pilot, I simply can not live without FFB (I still do not understand how one can trim properly the plane without feeling the load on the controls).

Couple of days ago I accidentally found this thread and loved it!  My firmware is patched and now I can do IFR III landings without autopilot!!!! (before these always resulted in the pilot induced oscilations and a Eject when tumbling out of controll followed with a lot of harsh words.  ) Aiming in IL2 and formation flying is piece of cake now! Wow, this feels good!

Now I am really keen to explore this a little further and make flying feeling almost real. I read before that you had a question about how it really feels to use stick on the real plane. Well, it depends. But it basically boils down to three kinds of sensor feeling.

1. All classic planes with no hydrolics - you feel everything that blows over the control surfaces, it is almost unreal how sencetive the feeling gets, especially with a lighter planes with large control surfaces. When on the ground - the stick moves with no resistance and stays exactly where you left it because controls are typically balanced. There should be no 'play' in controls, no slack of any sort - if you have any slack or play - it means trouble and failed checklist check. If you ever had Thrustmaster F16 with UBER gimbals MOD - this is exactly how it feels.
When flying things change right away - you feel how fast you go, when you enter the termal, turbulence, you feel the ground effect and a prop wash if you hold the stick properly - no ham fists please. It makes for an excellent imersion even without the moving chair, especially in VR.  The controls will get stiffer and harder the faster the plane goes, and in some cases could even over power the pilot (think WorldWar II bombers, when sometimes 2 pilots could not handle the controls in a dive and crashing). The saying that "controls get heavy in a dive" is quite literal - the stick feels like someone holds it and resists your commands. (First time I felt this during my first towed flight, I was absolutely sure that instructor was holding to the stick too tight not letting me do all the flying  ) The force could feel like "centering spring" effect if the plane is not trimmed, but if trimmed, the stick will stay where it was when the loads were removed by trimmin. This is exactly why it is so easy to trim - you just hold the attitude and trim till you feel no load on the stick.
This progressive build up of the force and lack of centering around the trimmed zone is the feeling I am missing now with latest firmware patch - but I am still experimenting with the simulator settings. I will try the recommended settings tonight by increasing all effects to 100% - now I am on less than 50%.

2. Newer planes with hydraulic powered controls (not fly by wire) - these kind of work like old cars with powered steering - when you loose power or not enough power goest to the hydraulic pump the controls turn stiff and almost dead, need a lot of force to move them. There is not enough force in G940 to replicate the stiff column of the business jet when not trimmed! It becomes a very physically exhausting exercise if not trimmed. I felt my arms and biceps for days after a couple of ours in the Bombardier sim and the real thing can get even worse.

3. New jets like F16, which I only tried once is a full motion sim. These are fly by wire and the stick there does not move! I've heard that it was invented so because of very high g-forces that pilots have to endure - when they faint - the hand slips of the grip and no inputs are given to the stick.  This works exactly like Thrustmaster Warthog - the base is fixed to the piezzo sensor which feels the force and translates the inputs to the fly-by-wire system. I've read this is what inspired Thrustmaster to get rid of mechanical controls and switch to this setup (and perhaps brought the era FFB to an end). The disadvantage - there is no force feedback possible, other then via the vibrations of the body of the plane and g-forces (which are plenty there). 

Do not know about Su-27 or F14 or F22. Perhaps someone can shed some more light on these. But I will check about F35 next time I meet some old friends once we are allowed to meet due to COVID restrictions on gatherins nowadays.

Other opinions are welcomed, but this is mine '2 cents' of contributions to return the favour to fred41 for all the hard work done!

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by wfox

[wfox]

First experiments last night with new firmware and 100% settings on all effects and 0% (disabled) centering spring and factory configuration of the grip revealed that the G940 joystick behaves like scenario 2 (see above) - way too heavy in my humble opinion, but still manageable to control due to the nice precision control area where FFB is minimal. But still it is almost hard to fly the plane when manouvering, which typically hapens when the plane is flown faster than it likes. It should not be the case all of the time and should be more a funciton of speed than a function of deflection of the stick.

Trim works like in all sims - you trim while releasing the stick to central position by literally moving the stick to center (not by releasing the pressure) - which is not how it should work. For case 1 the stick is mechanically linked to the elevators and eilerons - which means that there is no way it can move back when trimming - this would indicate a mechanical failure. 

I do not know if this could be realised in the firmware though - it is more a funtion which should be implemented in the Simulator I guess. Just wanted to let you know.

Will continue my experiments with lesser force settings and let you know best results when I am happy with it.   Thanks again - the firmware makes a huge difference now!

[VirusAM]

 
 
... check the ffb_experimental branch of my repository:
 
https://github.com/fred41/G940-firmware-fixes/tree/ffb_experimental
 
... and better don't torture your G940 gimbal to much, with this heavy grip

Hi, I would need the firmware which disable the deadman sensor as i have in mind a modding project similar to the one by the user above.
I applied the latest custom firmware, but the sensor seem to be working.
In the github code I see it should be disabled.
Did I do something wrong, or do I need to change something?
Thanks

[VirusAM]

Well, reading the comments above by fred, I saw that the sensor should simulate to be active only when it is disconnected from the pcb, so I will try that when I can.

Edited March 31, 2022 by VirusAM

[TORC]

Hi VirusAM,

 

What I did was placed the sensor (and its illuminator, it's all on the one circuit board) inside the stick base looking at some white electrical tape. I then put a switch which cuts the power to the illuminator, so I can turn it off. It might also be possible to just point the illuminator at the sensor - its been years since I had this apart.

[James DeSouza]

I tried this updated firmware and my G940 isn't even being recognised as plugged in anymore.  And I can't even install the old firmware on it, as it is no longer recognised by the firmware installed either.

 

Magnificent.

 

So I looked around in my device manager and there was two G940's in there, one with HID in the name and one without.  Uninstalling both of those caused the computer to recognise the G940 again, and this firmware update means the stick is actually smooth compared to how it was at first, but it isn't detected by the Logitech Gaming Software so I have no force feedback (or at least I assume this is the reason I have no FFB).

Edited August 23, 2022 by James DeSouza

[Drakoz]

Are you running the Logitech Gaming Software v5.10.127?  What OS?  If you are using Windows 11, or maybe even the latest version of Win 10, there might not be very many people that have tried it with that setup.

I'm on Windows 10 21H1 (the early 2021 update) and it works there.  There is a 21H2 (most current Windows 10) which I am about to upgrade to so I can verify that.  

But chances are, if it isn't working, it is something with your install.  Disconnect the G940 and try uninstalling the LGS software and re-installing.  Follow closely any instructions about connecting the joystick.  Many such installers require the joystick to be disconnected before installing or uninstalling the software.  The v5.10.127 LGS software should install the driver.  

If you still can't get it working, you might want to make sure you don't have any newer versions of Logitech Gaming Software (either LGS or their replacement for LGS).  I am reaching here. It shouldn't matter.  I run a newer version of LGS along side the G940 LGS version and never had issues, but just a thought to try.  

[Dragon1-1]

On 11/29/2021 at 8:49 PM, wfox said:

Do not know about Su-27 or F14 or F22. Perhaps someone can shed some more light on these. But I will check about F35 next time I meet some old friends once we are allowed to meet due to COVID restrictions on gatherins nowadays.

AFAIK, the F-22 has an F-16 style side stick. F-14 is classic hydraulics, and Su-27 has a center FFB stick similar to the F-18, with no force feedback. 

Also, the Viper's SSC does move, just by very small amounts (around 3 degrees, IIRC), and with a noticeable mechanical stop. Some prototypes had a completely fixed stick and pilots actually managed to bend them in testing. TM doesn't make a limited displacement base, RealSimulator does, and now Winwing (Saitek did have a high end force sensing base, but it was fully fixed). FFB era ended because people who held the patent stopped making sticks, and nobody else could because patent (it has since expired).

[VirusAM]

16 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

AFAIK, the F-22 has an F-16 style side stick. F-14 is classic hydraulics, and Su-27 has a center FFB stick similar to the F-18, with no force feedback. 

Also, the Viper's SSC does move, just by very small amounts (around 3 degrees, IIRC), and with a noticeable mechanical stop. Some prototypes had a completely fixed stick and pilots actually managed to bend them in testing. TM doesn't make a limited displacement base, RealSimulator does, and now Winwing (Saitek did have a high end force sensing base, but it was fully fixed). FFB era ended because people who held the patent stopped making sticks, and nobody else could because patent (it has since expired).

except there is now a FFB stick out there...check walmis's Rhino base...

I have one and is FFB in 2022...awesome

[Dragon1-1]

1 minute ago, VirusAM said:

except there is now a FFB stick out there...check walmis's Rhino base...

I have one and is FFB in 2022...awesome

As I said, the patent expired. Which is now allowing development of the technology to restart, this time out of control of whoever owned the patent (either Microsoft or Logitech, I don't remember).

[James DeSouza]

9 hours ago, Drakoz said:

Are you running the Logitech Gaming Software v5.10.127?  What OS?  If you are using Windows 11, or maybe even the latest version of Win 10, there might not be very many people that have tried it with that setup.

I'm on Windows 10 21H1 (the early 2021 update) and it works there.  There is a 21H2 (most current Windows 10) which I am about to upgrade to so I can verify that.  

But chances are, if it isn't working, it is something with your install.  Disconnect the G940 and try uninstalling the LGS software and re-installing.  Follow closely any instructions about connecting the joystick.  Many such installers require the joystick to be disconnected before installing or uninstalling the software.  The v5.10.127 LGS software should install the driver.  

If you still can't get it working, you might want to make sure you don't have any newer versions of Logitech Gaming Software (either LGS or their replacement for LGS).  I am reaching here. It shouldn't matter.  I run a newer version of LGS along side the G940 LGS version and never had issues, but just a thought to try.  

 

I am on Win 11 (21H2 specifically) as I have a 12 gen intel and you get better performance on that.  I am also on LGS 5.10.127.  I tried disconnecting the joystick, then uninstalling and reinstalling LGS, then seeing if it will detect the joystick.  All that happened was the system stopped detecting the joystick entirely.

 

I noticed however, when the joystick isn't being detected at all there are 2 entries for G940 in the hardware manager, one has HID in brackets next to it along with an error icon, apparently the driver is corrupted.  If I uninstall both of these G940 entries in the device manager the system gets recognised by my PC again, labelled as G940 in the game controllers menu, but in the device manager is just labelled as a generic "HID-Compliant Game Controller".

 

Hmm, there is a setting in Win 11 and Win 10, but it is off by default in Win 10, that can cause some things to not install correctly.  Unfortunately I can't for the life of me remember what that setting is.  Possibly this is causing the driver not to install correctly...

 

AH I remember what the setting is now.  It is core isolation/memory integrity.  Do you have that off on your system?  I am kind of hesitant to turn it off, but if you do then that might be the solution.

 

I disabled core isolation and tried reinstalling everything again.  It works.  Very nice.  Though I am a little spooked about turning off security...  Best part is that I also cludged the handgrip part of a Thrustmaster TWCS into the G940 on the left hand throttle since it had no controls by default, so now I have 8 axis and 37 buttons on my throttle lmao.

 

I almost forgot to say, as I was so excited to have a working cyclic!  Thank you for the help Drakoz and thank you for the upgraded firmware Fred.

Edited August 25, 2022 by James DeSouza
Spooky

[Drakoz]

Never heard of disabling core isolation.  I'll check that on my system. If this is a Windows 11 vs. 10 issue, this might be important to know.  I have several joysticks, but for helicopters I hate flying without FFB.  Very glad to hear you got it working.