F-14B AI is frustratingly stupid

[Ironwulf]

Not sure if this is a DCS World thread, or Heatblur, so feel free to move

 

1. They (most of the time) attempt to climb to a given altitude from one waypoint to another seemingly instantly, pitching up 25 degrees or more with full burner and if they didn't start with enough airspeed they either stall, only to try the same ridiculous pitch angle again, or just fly along nose up with burner on.... usually descending. Even if they do manage to make it up there, they've burned off a HUGE amount of fuel and they are way outside their TOT. This is particularly evident if you task them to take off from land, and end up at 30000ft in a short (but not unrealistic) distance.

 

2. The AI seems to favour AIM-7 over AIM-54... long range engagement against nice dopey Mig-23s where I specifically have told them (using search and engage group) to use "LR AAM" they will maybe fire off one, then close in on the others at full burner to engage with an AIM7. It would not be uncommon to see them come back with 3 or 4 (out of 4) phoenixes, which is not how I wanted the scenario to pan out. Typically after that first one, they will only fire the Phoenix after they have exhausted their Sparrows.

 

By contrast if I use the old F-14A, its AI will put 2 or 3 in, at least, before going to medium range missiles - which is exactly what I want. They are supposed to be able to engage multiple targets at once with Phoenix, and this is not evident - in the F14B at least- at all.

 

3. Unrealistic startup time from a ramp start. One minute from air being applied to chocks away and taxi... I cant see a human doing this.

[Ironwulf]

Some other issues are with refuelling

 

http://voyager.hi-powered.net/files/dcs/F-14-2.jpg

 

http://voyager.hi-powered.net/files/dcs/F-14-1.jpg

 

This guy really really wanted to get some fuel, but the tanker wasn't having it.... so he tried anyway, apparently

 

http://voyager.hi-powered.net/files/dcs/F-14-3.jpg

[Nerd1000]

Not sure if this is a DCS World thread, or Heatblur, so feel free to move

 

1. They (most of the time) attempt to climb to a given altitude from one waypoint to another seemingly instantly, pitching up 25 degrees or more with full burner and if they didn't start with enough airspeed they either stall, only to try the same ridiculous pitch angle again, or just fly along nose up with burner on.... usually descending. Even if they do manage to make it up there, they've burned off a HUGE amount of fuel and they are way outside their TOT. This is particularly evident if you task them to take off from land, and end up at 30000ft in a short (but not unrealistic) distance.

 

2. The AI seems to favour AIM-7 over AIM-54... long range engagement against nice dopey Mig-23s where I specifically have told them (using search and engage group) to use "LR AAM" they will maybe fire off one, then close in on the others at full burner to engage with an AIM7. It would not be uncommon to see them come back with 3 or 4 (out of 4) phoenixes, which is not how I wanted the scenario to pan out. Typically after that first one, they will only fire the Phoenix after they have exhausted their Sparrows.

 

By contrast if I use the old F-14A, its AI will put 2 or 3 in, at least, before going to medium range missiles - which is exactly what I want. They are supposed to be able to engage multiple targets at once with Phoenix, and this is not evident - in the F14B at least- at all.

 

3. Unrealistic startup time from a ramp start. One minute from air being applied to chocks away and taxi... I cant see a human doing this.

 

They're very bad at WVR dogfighting too: I can quite easily defeat one in the MiG-21. I should note that I'm hopelessly bad at ACM and can only win against the MiG-21 AI in the F-14 about half the time...

[Silver_Dragon]

3. Unrealistic startup time from a ramp start. One minute from air being applied to chocks away and taxi... I cant see a human doing this.

 

Startup time on ramp start has endemic from DCS. None of the AI aircrafts and helos has realistic start ups.

[Scofflaw]

Not sure if this is a DCS World thread, or Heatblur, so feel free to move

 

1. They (most of the time) attempt to climb to a given altitude from one waypoint to another seemingly instantly, pitching up 25 degrees or more with full burner and if they didn't start with enough airspeed they either stall, only to try the same ridiculous pitch angle again, or just fly along nose up with burner on.... usually descending. Even if they do manage to make it up there, they've burned off a HUGE amount of fuel and they are way outside their TOT. This is particularly evident if you task them to take off from land, and end up at 30000ft in a short (but not unrealistic) distance.

 

I notice my AI wingman often runs out of fuel quite early into a long mission. I'm not sure if there's any AI fuel management logic on any aircraft, but I've only noticed them ditching the aircraft due to fuel with the F14.

[Wavehopper]

Yup, they are next to useless. I've noticed those behaviours from them as well.

[chaser]

its not just an f14 issues, but a bigger Ed issue

[SonofEil]

The only reason I'll ever bring a wingman, in any module, is to use as a decoy.

[riboyster]

I recall the original tomcat release AI using AIM54s appropriately. Pretty sure this bug was introduced in the 1st patch.

[GKOver]

I have played an own-created scenario/mission very often:

4 F-14s vs. 8 Mig-31 and 2 Mi-24.

 

 

No matter what I am telling my wingmen, they are usually shooting only 1 - 4 Phoenix. It seems that they are more often using the Phoenix against the helicopters.

 

So I have to do the work alone......

 

 

Besides: I can also see that my wingmen is flying straight forward the enemy (usually without firing any rocket) and wingmen 3 and 4 are falling back behind me....

[IronMike]

Unfortunately this is a DCS issue; we only have limited access to AI.

 

Refueling for example, AI aircraft do not refuel external tanks and so forth, fuel management is lacking etc etc.

 

We will see how much we can do about it and we will keep working with our partners at ED to improve them over time.

[Ironwulf]

Unfortunately this is a DCS issue; we only have limited access to AI.

 

Refueling for example, AI aircraft do not refuel external tanks and so forth, fuel management is lacking etc etc.

 

We will see how much we can do about it and we will keep working with our partners at ED to improve them over time.

 

Thanks mate, I appreciate that its not entirely a third party issue most of the time, although as I noted the F-14A AI seems to be ok with some things, so hopefully its something that can be tweaked. It really is a fantastic module and it is by no means a criticism of the work done to date, I just really want to use them as both AI coalition aircraft (also as others have mentioned as AI wingmen) in Single Player, and some Multi Player scenarios.

 

I figure if there's no feedback however, nothing will get done by anyone! :)

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ironwulf
Fixed up the typos!

[IronMike]

Thanks mate, I appreciate that its not entirely a third party issue most of the time, although as I noted the F-14A AI seems to be ok with some things, so hopefully its something that can be tweaked. It really is a fantastic module and it is in means a criticism of the work done to date, I just really want to use them as both AI coalition aircraft, but as others have mentioned as AI wingmen, in Single Player, and some Multi Player scenarios.

 

I figure if there's no feedback however, nothing will get done by anyone! :)

*

 

You are absolutely right, and we appreciate the feedback tremendously. Thank you very much for that, I mean it. Continously improving the quality of the module has top priority for us.

[MBot]

I also noticed that the AI F-14B will not engage multiple targets with AIM-54 simultaneously, something that the old AI F-14A does very well. Engaging fighters with a single missile at a time seems appropriate, but when intercepting bomber formations the lack of multi-target engagements is apparent.

[rikkles]

I notice my AI wingman often runs out of fuel quite early into a long mission. I'm not sure if there's any AI fuel management logic on any aircraft, but I've only noticed them ditching the aircraft due to fuel with the F14.

 

Classic ED problem. Wingmen handle throttles as binary: Slow or afterburner. In many missions you'll see the wingman literally bail out while still ingressing to target.

[KiraTheCat]

Any way to add a radio menu option to ask the AI about their current fuel state? Just as nice would be some kind of audio warning (radio call) when they hit certain fuel states. I'm thinking like the old 'JANE'S USN '97' wingmen would call out 'Joker fuel', and then later 'Bingo fuel'. These are real radio calls, the first being "We're getting low on fuel, and we need to think about disengaging", the second "We need to head back to the ship right now if we don't want to be swimming home."

[Dudikoff]

Any way to add a radio menu option to ask the AI about their current fuel state? Just as nice would be some kind of audio warning (radio call) when they hit certain fuel states. I'm thinking like the old 'JANE'S USN '97' wingmen would call out 'Joker fuel', and then later 'Bingo fuel'. These are real radio calls, the first being "We're getting low on fuel, and we need to think about disengaging", the second "We need to head back to the ship right now if we don't want to be swimming home."

 

He does call Bingo fuel or something, though I get the impression he calls it out just before running out of fuel completely as it's pretty soon followed by punching out. It would be nice if DCS would allow this Bingo fuel callout value to be set in the mission editor.

[IronMike]

He does call Bingo fuel or something, though I get the impression he calls it out just before running out of fuel completely as it's pretty soon followed by punching out. It would be nice if DCS would allow this Bingo fuel callout value to be set in the mission editor.

 

From my personal experience, since I prefer them to RTB rather than punching out, whenever they call bingo, I send them rtb. So far they always made it. They seem to go into a more fuel conservative mode then as they do not try to keep up with you anymore, but I could be wrong, so please take it with a grain of salt.

[elaintahra]

I notice my AI wingman often runs out of fuel quite early into a long mission. I'm not sure if there's any AI fuel management logic on any aircraft, but I've only noticed them ditching the aircraft due to fuel with the F14.

 

While I have ~8k fuel left, my wingman often is on Bingo, then 5-10 mins later "bailing out"..

[jmarso]

While I have ~8k fuel left, my wingman often is on Bingo, then 5-10 mins later "bailing out"..

 

This is frustrating, but there are a couple of tricks you can use to alleviate the problem- a bit.

 

It's important to remember that your wingman, or especially Dash-4 if your're flying a 4-ship, are always going to be hurting on gas more than you as the lead. This is even more true if you are climbing out at full military power and they are forced into burner to chase you and join up. I've noticed using the flyby views that when a wingman gets too far behind, he'll go to full burner to get back into position.

 

If you are launching from a runway/carrier with 3 wingman following you, try making a slow circle back around the ship as they launch in order to give them 'angles' to join up, and not having to chase you for 20-30 miles in burner. On the climbout, go a little shallower and set about 96-97% RPM- that gives your wingmen a little 'wiggle room' on power to help them keep up and keep gas consumption down.

 

These things will help, but not really solve the problem completely. Even being careful, it always seems like my flight is screaming that they're out of gas when I've got a ton.

[cobrabase]

I seriously cannot believe that this AI stand-off attack issue with the phoenix missiles has still not been fixed since this thread started last May.

 

If the behavior works with the F-14A can't they simply cut and paste the code for the B?

 

I can't believe this.

 

So essentially I have to fly ONLY in multi-player to use the Phoenix missile system REALISTICLY? How does this not get fixed over 8 months?

[CommanderRabb]

Yes indeed, they are very stupid.

 

 

A couple of days ago. On the Iran reactor strike mission. Told wingman to engage and do the mission objectives. I gave him plenty of lead time, but he veers off somewhere else instead.

 

Then I bombed the target and left on afterburner. AI wingman is flying around somewhere else, still hasn't dropped his weapons and won't despite being told to multiple times. Once the mission is reported success, he immediately leaves the area on afterburner attempting to rejoin with a full bomb load. I had to tell him to jettison his weapons.

 

I'm a fair bit of a ways ahead of him and then he reports bingo fuel. I tell him to go to the tanker and he refuses. So I tell him to RTB and he complies and flies off in another direction - presumably to the carrier...

 

I go feet wet. Wingman is still back there somewhere. A few minutes later I watch as wingman reports sighting a bandit. Then an F-5 flies up behind him, shoots a Sidewinder, misses and I tell wingman to engage. He goes "unable" and keeps flying like everything is fine, even though there's an F-5 flying right behind him and which then effortlessly shoots him down with his guns...lol.

Edited January 28, 2020 by CommanderRabb

[jojo]

Yes indeed, they are very stupid.

 

 

A couple of days ago. On the Iran reactor strike mission. Told wingman to engage and do the mission objectives. I gave him plenty of lead time, but he veers off somewhere else instead.

 

Then I bombed the target and left on afterburner. AI wingman is flying around somewhere else, still hasn't dropped his weapons and won't despite being told to multiple times. Once the mission is reported success, he immediately leaves the area on afterburner attempting to rejoin with a full bomb load. I had to tell him to jettison his weapons.

 

I'm a fair bit of a ways ahead of him and then he reports bingo fuel. I tell him to go to the tanker and he refuses. So I tell him to RTB and he complies and flies off in another direction - presumably to the carrier...

 

I go feet wet. Wingman is still back there somewhere. A few minutes later I watch as wingman reports sighting a bandit. Then an F-5 flies up behind him, shoots a Sidewinder, misses and I tell wingman to engage. He goes "unable" and keeps flying like everything is fine, even though there's an F-5 flying right behind him and which then effortlessly shoots him down with his guns...lol.

 

I’m afraid these are general ED’s AI issues.

 

For instance, with another module, I realised that if you want to order the wingman to go refuel, you must not be too far from it, or maybe him.

I didn’t took the time to fully investigate the issue.

Maybe if there is a waypoint close to the tanker, you can order to go to that waypoint, and when he’s there go refuel.

 

In the end, you have to babysit your AI wingmen, but not limited to Tomcat :doh:

[IronMike]

I seriously cannot believe that this AI stand-off attack issue with the phoenix missiles has still not been fixed since this thread started last May.

 

If the behavior works with the F-14A can't they simply cut and paste the code for the B?

 

I can't believe this.

 

So essentially I have to fly ONLY in multi-player to use the Phoenix missile system REALISTICLY? How does this not get fixed over 8 months?

 

 

Again, AI behavior in general is a DCS issue, there is only a few things we can set for the AI. The old AI uses the old phoenix, while the new AI, as we found out, does not recognize the phoenix as an active missile. This is something we need to fix together with ED and it just takes time, unfortunately, compared to the rest, it has a somewhat lower priority.

 

However, you can use your own missiles realistically in Single Player as well, not sure why you would have to fly multiplayer to use it... The AI has always been a chore, not only in DCS btw.

 

Hopefully one day it will improve, but at the moment we have to work with what we got.

[captain_dalan]

 

Hopefully one day it will improve, but at the moment we have to work with what we got.

Any useful tips on how to micro manage my wingman in SP? I enjoy flying the missions that come with the F-14, but inconsistent wingman performance can be a crucial component in some of them, like Protect the Viskburg, where you as a single plane just don't have enough ordnance on board to handle all the threats.