Confused by rocket aiming direction

[imacken]

Difficult to show in a screenshot, but can someone explain to me about the different directions the pitch ladder, velocity vector, rocket pipper, and direction of flight of the rockets in the attached?

It seems to me, that regardless of where the pipper is, the rockets seem to go in the direction of the middle of the HUD when the vv is offset and, to a lesser degree, so is the targeting pipper.

It also seems that when the breakX comes on screen, that it is also in the middle of the HUD, and is in line with the rocket flight direction.

[sthompson]

Difficult to show in a screenshot, but can someone explain to me about the different directions the pitch ladder, velocity vector, rocket pipper, and direction of flight of the rockets in the attached?

It seems to me, that regardless of where the pipper is, the rockets seem to go in the direction of the middle of the HUD when the vv is offset and, to a lesser degree, so is the targeting pipper.

It also seems that when the breakX comes on screen, that it is also in the middle of the HUD, and is in line with the rocket flight direction.

Probably due to wind causing both the VV and computed impact point of the rockets to be offset from straight ahead.

[imacken]

I get that the vv and the pipper are offset by wind. However, the question is why do the rockets fire in a direction different to where the pipper is pointing? Also, why is the pipper offset by a different amount to the vv?

I mean, how is one supposed to aim the rocket in any wind if it fires off in a different direction to its pipper?

[DD_Fenrir]

Don't forget that the wind will blow the rockets track back towards the pipper so whilst they will leave the a/c almost on bore-sight their ground track will progress towards the target.

 

As good as modern avionics are there will still be variables in wind speed and the rockets own flight peculiarities that it cannot account for; that's why rockets are an area attack weapon.

[Harker]

Doesn't the targeting computer take wind into account though? At least up to a point?

[imacken]

Doesn't the targeting computer take wind into account though? At least up to a point?

It obviously doesn't in DCS, as the rockets go straight even when the pipper is offset.

It is interesting that the gun pipper doesn't show this behaviour. It i always in the centre regardless of where the vv is or what the wind is.

Load the PG guns and rocket mission to see what I mean. switch from rockets to guns and see the difference. With guns, the aim is straight, and a target can be hit every time. Rockets, not the same!

I can't make any sense of a system where the pipper doesn't relate to where the weapon is pointed at.

[DD_Fenrir]

I can't make any sense of a system where the pipper doesn't relate to where the weapon is pointed at.

 

And therein maybe lies the rub; it isn't about where the weapon is pointed but about where it's flight path intersects the ground.

 

Flight path of any airbourne projectile is affected by wind. How much depends on the speed of that projectile and the distance it has to cover.

 

The wind you have in that mission is by your own screenshot causing your a/c to drift left from bore-sight.

 

Is it not going to have the same effect on the rocket?

[imacken]

And therein maybe lies the rub; it isn't about where the weapon is pointed but about where it's flight path intersects the ground.

 

Flight path of any airbourne projectile is affected by wind. How much depends on the speed of that projectile and the distance it has to cover.

 

The wind you have in that mission is by your own screenshot causing your a/c to drift left from bore-sight.

 

Is it not going to have the same effect on the rocket?

 

Of course that is all true. However, my point is that the aiming system should take account of the wind in its predictions of where the pipper is being pointed.

Doesn't wind affect bullets from the gun as well? The gun pipper is not affected by the wind in the same way as the rocket one is.

[DD_Fenrir]

Probably because the rocket (~1300knots) is travelling almost half the speed of the bullet (~2000).

 

Ergo for the same launch range it's time of flight is almost twice as long ergo the wind will blow it further off course.

 

Added to which the rockets are not a precision weapon; even in zero wind conditions you will rarely put a single rocket on the ground position your pipper is over at launch thanks to a host of factors resulting in each rockets flight path varying slightly from the one before or after.

[imacken]

Thanks again.

I agree with everything you are saying, it's just that I'm not convinced this is working as it should with rockets in general.

It might be me, but I feel the aiming - even in in an area attack sense - just doesn't feel right.

Look at the 2 screenshots here as an example of what happens to me.

The first is before firing, and the second shows the impact points after the weapon has hit (I was using Active Pause - very useful for this kind of thing!)

I mean, how could 4 rockets miss!

[jojo]

Unguided rockets are area weapons, not pinpoint accurate.

 

4 rockets is a really small salvo.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

The trick to hitting your target with rockets is

 

a) do not aim at your target but around it

b) use unlimited rockets and hope for the best

[Fri13]

Just wait that the A-G radar comes. You should start to see a better results. But anyways, this is one of the results why AV-8B is more accurate in ground attack with ARBS than F/A-18 is with A-G radar (AV-8B pilot experience training with Hornet pilots).

 

But still, rocket is a rocket, having a guidance only by its own length from the store. So not much at all to get it flying straight at the direction you are theoretically aiming it for. Bullet instea has many times length of it itself, giving far better initial accuracy.

[imacken]

The trick to hitting your target with rockets is

 

a) do not aim at your target but around it

b) use unlimited rockets and hope for the best

 

Now that sounds like good advice!

[p1t1o]

In the end, its still deep in early access, so all bets are off really. Anything could be a symptom of "its not done yet".

 

HOWEVER:

 

Thanks again.

I agree with everything you are saying, it's just that I'm not convinced this is working as it should with rockets in general.

It might be me, but I feel the aiming - even in in an area attack sense - just doesn't feel right.

Look at the 2 screenshots here as an example of what happens to me.

The first is before firing, and the second shows the impact points after the weapon has hit (I was using Active Pause - very useful for this kind of thing!)

I mean, how could 4 rockets miss!

 

You aint NEVER gonna score a physical hit on a tiny vehicle with rockets just by putting the pipper on it, except by blind luck. Not from a fast mover, not even hardly from an A10. You're looking at good accuracy in those two pics.

 

Think of rocket pods as an artillery barrage in your pocket, not a sniper rifle.

 

Dont use them against tanks.

[imacken]

Dont use them against tanks.

Tell that to Wags! I’m just running his rockets practice missions!

[Harker]

I only use rockets for soft targets and even like that, I kinda prefer to drop a couple of Mk-82s and strafe them instead.

[p1t1o]

Tell that to Wags! I’m just running his rockets practice missions!

 

lol overachievers!

 

Its not that you cant, its just "hard mode".

Edited May 23, 2019 by p1t1o

[sthompson]

imacken: Everything you have reported is consistent with the effects of wind on the pipper, assuming the targeting computer is compensating for wind. The pipper is offset more than the VV in your first picture because rockets are faster than your jet. Bullets are faster still and so their pipper is offset from boresight even less. Furthermore, I would be a little surprised if the modeling is completely accurate when you fire during active pause. Your HUD says you are traveling 451 knots while in active pause you aren't moving at all. I have no idea whether the rocket physics or targeting computer simulation are affected by active pause, however.

 

BTW, In looking at your two most recent screenshots I cannot make out the rocket impact points.

 

Thanks again.

I agree with everything you are saying, it's just that I'm not convinced this is working as it should with rockets in general.

It might be me, but I feel the aiming - even in in an area attack sense - just doesn't feel right.

Look at the 2 screenshots here as an example of what happens to me.

The first is before firing, and the second shows the impact points after the weapon has hit (I was using Active Pause - very useful for this kind of thing!)

I mean, how could 4 rockets miss!

[imacken]

imacken: Everything you have reported is consistent with the effects of wind on the pipper, assuming the targeting computer is compensating for wind. The pipper is offset more than the VV in your first picture because rockets are faster than your jet. Bullets are faster still and so their pipper is offset from boresight even less. Furthermore, I would be a little surprised if the modeling is completely accurate when you fire during active pause. Your HUD says you are traveling 451 knots while in active pause you aren't moving at all. I have no idea whether the rocket physics or targeting computer simulation are affected by active pause, however.

 

BTW, In looking at your two most recent screenshots I cannot make out the rocket impact points.

 

Thanks, but in the first image the VV is offset more than the pipper, not less and there is no gun pipper showing at all!

The impact points are the 4 dark holes below and offset from the pipper. Just compare the 2 images.