Is the F-16 HOTAS as intuitively as the A-10C?

[Knock-Knock]

One part where I think the A-10C really shines, is in its HOTAS/system control design. Its so intuitive and clever once you know it, and you never (or rarely) take your hands off in combat. F-18 and Harrier dont shine in this way, they are much more DDI/MFD heavy, and you have to be hands of a lot more.

 

So, where does the 16 slot in this aspect? As clever as the A-10C, or more like the McDonnell guys?

[Madbrood]

Absolutely on par with the A-10C I would say.

[LJQCN101]

Expect difference in SOI and SPI control.

 

In F16, you use DMS to cycle pages and set SOI, instead of coolie hat on the A10C throttle.

 

SPI operation is automated so there isn't any control related to it.

[Knock-Knock]

I am very glad to hear this, thank you :thumbup:

[mastersetter]

Its certainly easier in some ways, it doesn't have the long press/short press nature that the a10c does, i really struggled with that to begin with.

[beppe_goodoldrebel]

Its certainly easier in some ways, it doesn't have the long press/short press nature that the a10c does, i really struggled with that to begin with.

 

+1

 

And I think it's easier even compared to the F18.

LIST and ICP pages are very straight forward , you can also see DED on the HUD.

 

For example all that is written in the low part of the HUD here ( CRUISE page ) is repeated from the DED

[SkipperSMG]

It is not AS intuitive as the Warthog but pretty straight forward and worlds ahead to F18 and Harrier. Still some MFD flickering but the really important stuff can be done hands down and the brilliant part is the ICP. You can enter/edit data and aircraft settings really fast. You can pretty much set up the Numpad as ICP which makes things even faster. I found it really comfortable to operate.

[Tippis]

Expect difference in SOI and SPI control.

 

In F16, you use DMS to cycle pages and set SOI, instead of coolie hat on the A10C throttle.

 

SPI operation is automated so there isn't any control related to it.

To build on that, the one thing that is quite likely to confuse you to no end if you're moving from the A-10 to the F-16 is how almost everything in the latter is built on a concept of fixed-point offsets.

 

You almost set your SPI and cursors in relation to a nav point/target point/mark point of some kind, and that offset can and will remain consistent as you change the reference point. In other words, you set up your TGP or AG radar to loot 8nm east of WP2, but when you flip to WP3, the sensor offset is untouched and you're now looking at some oddbal spot 8nm east of WP3…

 

On the other hand, there are built-in functionalities to exploit this behaviour, such as having pre-determined target offsets from waypoints and vice versa, so the AP is aiming for one fixed point and the sensors are pointing towards a different one, and you don't have to frantically shift the sensors around in the short timeframe you have at your disposal — it's all set up beforehand.

 

Once you get the hang of, and the habit to use, “cursor reset”, it's all smooth sailing and the preset offsets almost become something you miss in the A-10.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Tippis

[STNGersk]

I’m ready here for F16 as I have Full F16 Hotas ;) so all ser and ready gib me f16 already hehe

[BuzzU]

The Cougar is going to be harder and harder to find.

 

It would be nice if TM would release an updated Cougar throttle to go along with the Warthog stick we already have.

[Kev2go]

To my surprise actually like the F18's Hotas, and prefer the UFCD over the vipers ICP & DED display. * at least from analytical perspective" though the RL HOTAS of the F16 looks really neat and more ergonomic, although ive read that a RL pilot preferred some aspects of the Hornets Hotas such as TDC being more easily manipulated by left index finger vs left thumb on the F16 throttle

 

never really liked the A10's HOTAS because of the Long/ short pull types and because not owning a Warhog HOTAS i never had all the functions able to be mapped the way i wanted on the Saitek X55, and still needed to use some keyboard commands. Like imo it felt like an over complicated HOTAS. ( but mostly around the throttle) as i find the F16/ A10 stick itself fine.

 

 

F18 HOTAS was much easier to map on the X55 and felt more more natural for that HOTAS type.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Kev2go

[Tippis]

We'll see what ED ends up offering, but in general, actual HOTAS mapping can quite easily become a bit messy. The F-16 throttle (in particular) has an awful lot of dials on it that don't really correspond all that well to regular buttons, and most HOTASes don't have the number of twist axes or scroll encoders to really match the real thing.

 

Maybe this is just a joint ED-Virpil conspiracy to sell more of their kit… :P

[donkeyrider]

To my surprise actually like the F18's Hotas, and prefer the UFCD over the vipers ICP & DED display. * at least from analytical perspective" though the RL HOTAS of the F16 looks really neat and more ergonomic, although ive read that a RL pilot preferred some aspects of the Hornets Hotas such as TDC being more easily manipulated by left index finger vs left thumb on the F16 throttle

 

never really liked the A10's HOTAS because of the Long/ short pull types and because not owning a Warhog HOTAS i never had all the functions able to be mapped the way i wanted on the Saitek X55, and still needed to use some keyboard commands. Like imo it felt like an over complicated HOTAS. ( but mostly around the throttle) as i find the F16/ A10 stick itself fine.

 

 

F18 HOTAS was much easier to map on the X55 and felt more more natural for that HOTAS type.

 

I found the F-18 to be much more intuitive to use then the A-10C. I never got on top of the SPI/SOI thing, whereas the F-18 seemed more "point and shoot". I'm looking forward to learning how the Viper works.

[j-tk]

Yeah looks like TM is releasing the F18 for next years set, but man could they make a killing by restarting the Cougar line now.

[LJQCN101]

Once you get the hang of, and the habit to use, “cursor reset”, it's all smooth sailing and the preset offsets almost become something you miss in the A-10.

 

Yeah, CZ is an important function to clear all slew offsets (or called "system error"). IIRC in newer tapes, a TMS aft of <0.5 seconds commands a CZ, if the sensor is SOI and is not currently in any track mode. So you don't have to hit the MFD button.

[mkiii]

We'll see what ED ends up offering, but in general, actual HOTAS mapping can quite easily become a bit messy. The F-16 throttle (in particular) has an awful lot of dials on it that don't really correspond all that well to regular buttons, and most HOTASes don't have the number of twist axes or scroll encoders to really match the real thing.

 

Maybe this is just a joint ED-Virpil conspiracy to sell more of their kit… :P

 

 

The Warthog certainly works ok with that "other" F-16 sim IMHO. The 2 axes are not there, but the functionality of the Radar Elevation axis can be mapped to the grey friction lever, and the Man Rng/Gain portion of the other isn't something that really requires an axis, I use the China Hat. The press to Uncage function can be on the Throttle Button. Dogfight/Missile Override can use the boat switch, Airbrake - covered. Cursor,/Enable the TDI stick & button press, Comms - comms hat.

 

 

I seem to recall the the X-52 pro worked quite well too. plus it has 2 axes, 1 slider and a joystick/mouse cursor.

[Jetguy06]

The Warthog certainly works ok with that "other" F-16 sim IMHO. The 2 axes are not there, but the functionality of the Radar Elevation axis can be mapped to the grey friction lever, and the Man Rng/Gain portion of the other isn't something that really requires an axis, I use the China Hat. The press to Uncage function can be on the Throttle Button. Dogfight/Missile Override can use the boat switch, Airbrake - covered. Cursor,/Enable the TDI stick & button press, Comms - comms hat.

 

 

I seem to recall the the X-52 pro worked quite well too. plus it has 2 axes, 1 slider and a joystick/mouse cursor.

 

 

I have my WH throttle mapped in the "Voldemort sim" the exact same way you do. I guess it's a common way to map it since that mapping scheme works so well with that throttle.

[DataHawk]

Seeing how thrustmaster already has the "tooling" for the F-16 throttle and stick. Seems like a no brainer for them to re-release an updated Hotas for the F-16

[BuzzU]

They'd have to be convinced they could sell enough of them.

[mr_mojo97]

I’m sure they would absolutely. I’m also pretty sure that when ED first announced that they were making a product for the US DoD, TM would have been jumping straight on that band wagon. The publicity of working with a major military department meant making a stack load of cash in sales for TM. Doesn’t sound like ED are working closely with the DoD again with the F-16 though (they’d have said already) so I’d doubt TM would be up for making a custom hotas setup for the viper. Look how long it’s taking them to release the Hornet grip! If even that comes out it’ll be a small miracle.

[Cupra]

If you look how expansive even 10 year old used TM Cougar set have gone the last year you can imagine how much sets you can sell at 300$ a piece….

I started to collect them when they have been between 70 and 100$ a set. Thought it would be a good idea for my simulator if a single set brakes (normally just the electronics get damaged) I have some spare sets. Then I got my fingers on a real HOTAS set and now I start selling my total 9 Cougar sets again. If I set them on eBay I do not leave an auction below 350$ :huh:

[Davee]

The Cougar is going to be harder and harder to find.

 

It would be nice if TM would release an updated Cougar throttle to go along with the Warthog stick we already have.

 

 

Agree!

I still have my F-16 throttle but need some form of USB adapter.

 

 

I really like that throttle even though I have the WH throttle I find the Cougar F-16 throttle very intuitive and having flown it for years in Falcon 4.0 it should work nicely in DCS.

[=Panther=]

Agree!

I still have my F-16 throttle but need some form of USB adapter.

 

 

I really like that throttle even though I have the WH throttle I find the Cougar F-16 throttle very intuitive and having flown it for years in Falcon 4.0 it should work nicely in DCS.

 

You have seen this adapter, right?

http://realsimulator.com/html/tusba.html

[rel4y]

I also offer the same adapter for half the price and with a digital hall sensor as extra. I designed it initially for myself, because I think the price tag on the realsim is ridiculous. Been making them now for almost two years, so it is by all means a proven product. Feel free to check my thread on the sig.

Kind regards

[Wicked.-]

I also offer the same adapter for half the price and with a digital hall sensor as extra. I designed it initially for myself, because I think the price tag on the realsim is ridiculous. Been making them now for almost two years, so it is by all means a proven product. Feel free to check my thread on the sig.

Kind regards

 

Awesome! We had Cubpilot's hall sensor upgrades for years. Glad to see someone's working on it. I already have the Realsim TUSBA which cleans up the old pots but the Hall sensor rocked. At one time I had six Cougars, I would wear out the gimbals on the stick in a year and a half or two so when they were selling for $150 new at Fry's I bought a few more. For anyone looking to by one beware. They are made from Zinc and fall apart within 3 years at most. You can litterally squeeze the throttle too hard while it's off the arm and shatter it. (I've done it!) Foxy software doesn't work for shit on Windows 10 so you'll be using the in game setup for programming which will leave you wanting for switches and rotaries especially in VR. For the stick, get the Warthog. It the same thing but has an extra button on the CMS which is great for the slap switch. I currently use the Warthog throttle as well even though I have two Cougar throttles. This will change when they release the Viper as that's all I'll fly and won't have a need to change out throttles.

As to how the HOTAS works compared to the A-10 or 18, it's much more simple to me. First, the cockpit avionics setup is Master Mode dependent. You have AA, AG and Nav. On the throttle you have a 3 position dogfight switch with MRM mode (A2A past 10 miles AMRAAM's), Nav/AG and Dogfight or ACM mode. Depending on which position the switch is in, all avionics will be configured for those modes. MRM and Dogfight positions will always pull up settings for those modes. The Nav/AG mode is changed by pressing the AG master mode button on the ICP (UFC for those new to the Viper). Each of these modes can then be configured more specifiacally like RWS/TWS/VS/LRS in the MRM mode by the MFD and the TMS switch. Or slew, 10/60 and bore in Dogfight mode by using either MFD's or the Cursor Zero button or TMS switch.

Basically, you set up the different pages of the MFD's for what you'll want in the data tape cartridge. You can have three pages per MFD per mode. You can call up more but you'll need to use the MFD to do it. Otherwise you DMS right to cycle right MFD pages and left for left MFD.

This covers only some of the HOTAS functions and none of the ICP functions. I will say after using this setup for 20 years going to the A-10 setup felt arcane. It's like it's over complicated. As compared to the 18, you can do a whole lot more on the HOTAS in the 16 which means less hands off the stick and throttle.