Will there ever be a SA342sim?

[golani79]

My guess - it will still need a good amount of time before we get the reworked FM.

 

What bothers me also is the missing FFB support - this really sucks as it is a dream to fly the other helos with the FFB stick.

 

There are only 2 modules which I regret buying and these are the Hawk and the Gazelle :-/

 

Gesendet von meinem ONEPLUS A6013 mit Tapatalk

[Blackjack_UK]

i'm real helicopter pilot, i have a lots of flight hours (3000+) over a different type of helicopter with SAS and ATT stabilization computer, and i'm sorry, but the DCS Gazalle fly like a RC helicopter. The DCS KA50 (SAS too) fly very well like a real helo and also the Mi8.

 

Plese Tune the flight model, it's very bad, and i'm very sad, because i love the small attack helos.

 

THX

 

Bit late to this party, but yes. The Gazelle is a huge disappointment - I learned to fly on the real one and then did another 500 hours on it operationally before going on to other types in my 7000 odd hours.

 

If I'd tried to do the things that the Polychop model allows I'd be deader than a very dead thing. I love having it available but it's definitely a game model, not a simulator.

[tugais]

The good news is that Polychop announced a revised Gazelle flight model after the Kiowa release. It's all about patience now.

[elekrytyk]

The good news is that Polychop announced a revised Gazelle flight model after the Kiowa release. It's all about patience now.

 

This is not good news;) It would be if they fixed Gazelle FM before releasing Kiowa. I do not know how others but I will not buy Kiowa blind because now I would prefer to spend money not in Gazelle but in Jack Daniels: P Ka-50 is brilliant just like Mi-8. Huey is nice but Gazelle kills all the pleasure of flying with her FM.

[sniperwolfpk5]

This is not good news;) It would be if they fixed Gazelle FM before releasing Kiowa. I do not know how others but I will not buy Kiowa blind because now I would prefer to spend money not in Gazelle but in Jack Daniels: P Ka-50 is brilliant just like Mi-8. Huey is nice but Gazelle kills all the pleasure of flying with her FM.

 

I am in same boat. I will not buy any module blindly even if it is ED.

[Focha]

Hi guys,

 

This topic was well discussed in other threads... one of wish started by me.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=165929

 

Since then, I don't fly the Gazelle anymore.

 

I am also a helicopter pilot and flew helicopters with SAS/AFCS and it is not close to that. I agree with the other pilot who said that the Mi-8 and Ka-50 are a lot more "realistic" in the control/flight dynamics department.

 

But take a look at the thread I posted, maybe you will find some answers.

 

I think the development team said they will rebuild the FM. I still hope for that and the FFB support.

 

Until then, Gazelle is one of my favorites helicopters in real life, but really my worst regret in DCS at the moment. I hope to see better news in the future.

[tugais]

As you said, it has been discussed over and over, and the developper stated multiple times accross multiple threads that they will offer a new FM to the Gazelle. I bought this aircraft too but at this point the only thing we can do is to wait for their work to be completed.

 

If I learnt one thing by playing DCS is to manage my expectations toward development process.

[RealDCSpilot]

Just watched Pavehawker's stream and witnessed his micro movements on the cyclic, not using trim (the Kiowa has a big switch named "Force Trim")... This is Gazelle FM + bad controls all over again...

[barundus]

The force trim in KW is the mag-brake type. Very few (almost none) pilots flew with the force trim engaged. The aircraft has a SCAS system which smooths unwanted or uncommanded control inputs (e.g. wind gusts), with up to 10% authority over the controls. Most pilots prefered to fly with the fine control touch afforded by leaving FT off. FT was used primarily while the aircraft was on the ground to hold the cyclic in place.

 

 

See this thread. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=251704&page=20

Edited April 7, 2020 by barundus
addtl info

[RealDCSpilot]

I wonder what those pilots would say if someone cuts their cyclic sticks down to a third of the original length.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Alec Delorean

[borchi_2b]

@Alec Delorean:

 

What is your point ?

the control input would be the same when you have a short or a long cyclic, cause in the end the roll yourl be the same at your roll axis.

 

Your graphic show a missconception as you can clearly see the angle and movement on the shorter axis is overconrtrolled. The mature difference is, that with an extended cyclic you can make bigger movements physically with your hand or more finetuned inputs at the top of the arc of your cyclic.

 

Your picture proves no valid point cause it is simply a wrong picture

[sniperwolfpk5]

Well majority of people are using normal home base short sticks. I think it would be wise to code for majority of people. I will give you example of Huey, i know they are to different class but why it is fine with short sticks. Believe me I have purchased SA342 and flown for an hour and then never touched it again since then.

[PitbullVicious]

Well majority of people are using normal home base short sticks. I think it would be wise to code for majority of people.

 

I disagree with this. I'd expect any developer to be as accurate with the control deflection and harmonisation as they possibly can, I think this is part of simulation experience. I personally always try to bind my controls as close to the aircraft as possible (yes, I need to make a lot of compromises), to also understand the cognitive load of different cockpit solutions and to get different feel of each airframe (I'm not claiming this is necessarily always accurate, but at least it is more immersive).

 

I understand that not all people want, or can do things the same way, but that's what the curve adjustments are there for.

 

Yes, learning to control the Gazelle in the beginning was challenging, but it is definitely doable. I'm flying it with no curves what-so-ever and am quite comfortable with it (I started without any extension, but am currently using 11cm one with the TM Warthog base).

[Schmidtfire]

I have a Virpil setup and I cannot fly the SA342 anymore :cry:

 

It is very strange but the Gazelle does not work well with small inputs from my stick.

Nothing happens and I slowly start to make a bigger throw, and then the helicopter goes instantly into almost a 30-45deg bank. Kind of looks like a sharp four-point hesitation roll. No smooth or small corrections are possible. Looks like Im trying to play an old SEGA driving game with a keyboard.

 

Strange as the stick is very precise with Huey, Mi-8 and Ka-50. Anyone else experiencing this problem?

[Holton181]

I have a Virpil setup and I cannot fly the SA342 anymore :cry:

 

 

 

It is very strange but the Gazelle does not work well with small inputs from my stick.

 

Nothing happens and I slowly start to make a bigger throw, and then the helicopter goes instantly into almost a 30-45deg bank. Kind of looks like a sharp four-point hesitation roll. No smooth or small corrections are possible. Looks like Im trying to play an old SEGA driving game with a keyboard.

 

 

 

Strange as the stick is very precise with Huey, Mi-8 and Ka-50. Anyone else experiencing this problem?

Yes, the hard-coded deadzone. The only real issue with this bird.

What I have done is to configure custom curves for both X and Y. In the axis settings, tick the custom curves checkbox and a number of sliders, similar to an equalizer, shows up. Tinker with the lower ones (leftmost sliders) and you might mask the deadzone. The only thing I have done is to set the leftmost slider to 1 instead of default 0. This way the Gazelle feels like a real, small and agile chopper not far from the Robinson R44 I fly IRL. Tiny adjustments with my fingertips during hover. It isn't a perfect solution, but much better than default. Your settings might differ due to different hardware, configuration and taste.

[borchi_2b]

Again, check if the FFB is unchecked if you have issues with the control inputs. I have to uncheck now and then aswell, cause sometimes, an update resets your control prefrences.

FFB activated will cause a huge lack in response aropund the center when you have no FFB stick.

 

 

Thanks

[FragBum]

Well majority of people are using normal home base short sticks. I think it would be wise to code for majority of people. I will give you example of Huey, i know they are to different class but why it is fine with short sticks. Believe me I have purchased SA342 and flown for an hour and then never touched it again since then.

 

So for those that make the effort to build a pit with approximately proportional inputs or buy them, you would have the coding to suit a $50 joystick. Thats called game mode isn't it?

 

I'd prefer it as a flightsim first and foremost. :)

 

There are a number of fudges you can make using saturation on the cyclic input to compensate for such a short through and the detent center of a joystick and it's return springs but you than loose some authority of the cyclic. Trust me if you think the Gaz's cyclic is sensitive try an R44 that was a real eye opener.

 

I wont argue flight models but Huey ,Mi-8 and Gaz feel the same as far as cyclic input, take into account the mass of the aircraft and the rotor head type, they actually respond in similar fashion.:thumbup:

[sniperwolfpk5]

Oh my God I put my hand in the bee's nest.

[Holton181]

Again, check if the FFB is unchecked if you have issues with the control inputs. I have to uncheck now and then aswell, cause sometimes, an update resets your control prefrences.

 

FFB activated will cause a huge lack in response aropund the center when you have no FFB stick.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Yes, the FFB settings do elevate the deadzone issue and migt be part of the problem for Schmidtfire, but I myself do have all FFB settings OFF and the sliders in the Gazelle special options at zero. Still there are a small deadzone present making hovering unnecessarily difficult and breaks the immersion in flight.

We are several people noticing it (search for "deadzone" in these forums) not only being FFB related, and I have a feeling, but not sure, that it is mostly those of us having longer hardware cyclics.

With my curve tweak the deadzone is much reduced but still noticeable. Would very much like if you the developer could remove it entirely. I personally would then not have any big misgivings against the Gazelle.

[FragBum]

Oh my God I put my hand in the bee's nest.

 

No, well maybe you've built your own pedals the rest of it is just an extension of that, I did the same. Trust me once you get a decent cyclic input a joystick will not be your choice for helis. :thumbup:

[FragBum]

@Holton181 What controller and input device are you using?

[Holton181]

@Holton181 What controller and input device are you using?

An old PFT Lynx (first gen from 2012) with the pots changed to hall sensors. I believe you have done something similar to the curves as I, I might even have gotten the idea from you, don't remember, but we talked about it in a thread a while back.

 

Edit:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=231999

Edited April 17, 2020 by Holton181

[FragBum]

An old PFT Lynx (first gen from 2012) with the pots changed to hall sensors. I believe you have done something similar to the curves as I, I might even have gotten the idea from you, don't remember, but we talked about it in a thread a while back.

 

Edit:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=231999

 

Ah yes and for me that was a case of the mysterious "re-enabling of the FFB" it happens sometimes after an update.

[FragBum]

Some musing on using a joystick as I have found this can also be an issue with the helicopters, especially the Gazelle.

 

I first had issues flying the Gazelle and investegated what appeared to be a dead spot right bang in the center of X and Y travel. This also corresponds to the mechanical centering position. At first I thought is was just a mechanical "thing" as in overcoming the spring tension exerted on the joystick center. However it wasn't long till I removed the springs from the joystick and noticed a small but definite deadspot using the setup function in DCS looking at the transfer curve as the stick was transitioned from left to right or back to front there was was a distinct deadspot well more of a snap of the controller output to center of output and a noticeable amount of hysteresis, that is the amount of movement required to continue input was exaggerated. AKA a deadspot!

 

This occurs in both the X and Y axis of the joystick and makes a neat way for the joystick to have little or no effect in the mechanical center but sucks for helicopter sim flying. This especially applies to the Gazelle where the cyclic input is so "centered" and likely less of an issue for say Huey or Mi8 where without trimming the cyclic is slightly aft and either to the left or right of center (ish) Even if you do trim I feel the higher mass makes this less apparent in the larger helicopters. IMO.

 

The next thing and I am in no way saying you can't use a joystick (but you tend to notice the ones that are using a joystick on servers, just saying :music_whistling:) heck I know of people using keyboard. But. Having an extension will help considerably as fine manoeuvring requires almost no movement just a slight pressure on the cyclic to accomplish. Having a mechanical centering function also IMO does not help.

[Fri13]

Your graphic show a missconception as you can clearly see the angle and movement on the shorter axis is overconrtrolled. The mature difference is, that with an extended cyclic you can make bigger movements physically with your hand or more finetuned inputs at the top of the arc of your cyclic.

 

Your picture proves no valid point cause it is simply a wrong picture

 

His picture shows exactly the problem that simulator has as challenge.

1:1 stick movement in reality is not same thing as input vice because length of the input device.

Moving a 20 cm stick is not same thing as moving 45 cm stick because same movement amount causes different input to helicopter.

 

Majority of the DCS owners do not own 40 cm extended joystick, but table top joystick without any extension. So they suffer from control issues as they need to perform extremely small joystick movements compared to users who has extended joystick, and what requires much larger movements for same input.