Valve Index Hands On

[Supmua]

I ran some tests this weekend, 90Hz mode this time with the Harrier in PG map, and did not experience significant frame rate drop that some people did. This is the latest OB update with latest SteamVR beta. Flying low in downtown Dubai for 15-20 min is a pretty good stress test.

 

I was getting 42-45 fps with my VR rig using my usual VR settings and 200% SS (I typically can get 60 in Caucasus or less populated areas with these settings). GPU utilization was 97-98%, GPU was definitely stressed with temp went up to 80C. The only thing I noticed that was a change is that frame rate is no longer locked at 30/45/90 in 90Hz mode. I could probably squeeze out a few more frames by disabling some background apps as well as fpsVR but chose not to. Didn't have time to test MP though.

[imacken]

Ok thanks. Are there any differences between the two? I mean, PD is supposed to do the same thing as SS, isn't it?

 

Yes, in theory they do the same, but most people feel that SS just does a better job than PD. Less overhead.

[imacken]

The only thing I noticed that was a change is that frame rate is no longer locked at 30/45/90 in 90Hz mode.

 

I posted on this a few days ago. There is an issue with the last couple of SteamVR betas in that respect. Frame rates vary all over the place with Motion Smoothing on which means GPU usage is maxed out. They should be locked at 45 or 30.

I’ve gone back to the non beta version of SteamVR until this is fixed.

[Wicked.-]

The simple fact is there is something wrong with what you are doing, or you have a faulty unit.

For me, the leap from my CV1 to the Vive Pro was huge in terms of clarity, and the jump from the VP to the Index was also significant.

I had a Reverb, and although the one thing it did better than the Index was that it was a bit clearer, I didn’t feel it was significantly better, especially when running the Index at my current 204% SS.

 

 

If you have time can you give me your settings to try? I agree with you that it should be noticeably better than the CV1 but it isn't. To add to what I'm using for settings I have the refresh rate set at 90 FPS with reprojection locked at 45. Believe me when I say I do not want to send it back. If and when my CV1 dies, if the Index doesn't work for me I'm screwed with the other offerings because of my IPD.

[Wicked.-]

I completely agree and in the nicest possible way it is simply not possible that things are "crystal clear" in the CV1 no matter how much SS or PD thrown at it.

 

The only thing I think is the focal length of CV1 and Index my be slightly different hence the need for glasses or there is something awry with the unit or settings.

 

 

The need for glasses is something I tested as well. I wear readers/cheaters that are 1.75. With the Rift S I needed them, with the CV1 I don't. I didn't seem to need them with the Index either but I put them on to see if that was the problem with clarity and the image became worse. So, unfortunately that didn't fix it.

 

As to me saying the CV1 is crystal clear, let me qualify that statement. When the "VR optimization" update was released myself and two buddies who bought their CV1 when I bought mine noticed a major boost in clarity and FPS overhead. Prior to the release I would run a 1.8PD, 16X AF, No FSAA and no shadows with everything else set to high and it was so so on clarity but smooth on online servers which is what I cared about. After the release, I stopped using the PD in DCS and set it to .50, then used OTT to set it to 1.6, then turned on FSAA to 2x and AF the same at 16X. All other settings were the same. Now I could read the top DDI's in the 18 without leaning forward whereas before I could not. But, it was not crystal clear to be sure. The closest I've come to that was with the S when I was able to line up my readers with it.

 

Right now, the Index is on par with my CV1.

[Wicked.-]

Spent several more hours online in the PG map on a private server with about 6 other guys. The experience was better and I was able to set custom screen res to 204% and it ran really well with regards to smoothness. Visual quality was a little better and I'm wondering if there is some tweak I need to do to the positioning that I've not tried yet. I don't think anything is wrong with it as much as the shape of my face and eyesight when it comes to clarity. I already know I can't use the Reverb so I'm probably going to keep the Index. Like I've said previously the build quality of the unit blows away the other offerings I've tried though Vive hasn't put anything new out yet. I'm going to need two base stations because of the way my rig is setup. One doesn't do the job and I lose tracking when checking six. It's definitely a far cry from the nightmare I had with the Pimax5K+.

I would be interested if anyone has suggestions for dialing it in to my eyes. Thanks gents.

[RealDCSpilot]

@Supmua

 

 

Man, you are lucky. I even tried a complete reinstall of SteamVR, without luck. I always need to revert to SteamVR 1.6.10 to get rid of the bad stutters that are occuring on SteamVR beta 1.7.9 :(

Dubai is also my benchmark.

[imacken]

@Supmua

 

 

Man, you are lucky. I even tried a complete reinstall of SteamVR, without luck. I always need to revert to SteamVR 1.6.10 to get rid of the bad stutters that are occuring on SteamVR beta 1.7.9 :(

Dubai is also my benchmark.

 

Alec, are you seeing the same thing as per post #856?

[Nahemoth]

Alec, are you seeing the same thing as per post #856?

 

I don't know if it has any relation, but I started seen performance issues after trying SteamVR beta. I'm back to the stable version but still the same.

[imacken]

I don't know if it has any relation, but I started seen performance issues after trying SteamVR beta. I'm back to the stable version but still the same.

Can you try the SteamVR beta again and look at the fps - ingame or fpsVR - and see if you are locked to 45 or not with MS on? Latest betas not for me. Everything was OK till the last couple of builds. Release version is fine.

I'm pretty sure this is the cause of our problem.

NOTE: Just to be clear, I'm talking about beta and release versions of SteamVR, not DCS.

Edited August 26, 2019 by imacken

[RealDCSpilot]

@imacken

 

 

If Wicked.- is still running "...After the release, I stopped using the PD in DCS and set it to .50, then used OTT to set it to 1.6..." i'm not wondering about his bad impression. This kind of setting, undersampling followed by upsampling, will have a very bad effect. First he should make sure that no oculus driver/setting is interfering with SteamVR and than set anything from the ground up, Supersampling in SteamVR (first under /Video then /Application) and PD 1.0 in DCS.

[imacken]

@imacken

 

 

If Wicked.- is still running "...After the release, I stopped using the PD in DCS and set it to .50, then used OTT to set it to 1.6..." i'm not wondering about his bad impression. This kind of setting, undersampling followed by upsampling, will have a very bad effect. First he should make sure that no oculus driver/setting is interfering with SteamVR and than set anything from the ground up, Supersampling in SteamVR (first under /Video then /Application) and PD 1.0 in DCS.

 

Alec, not sure what you are meaning here. My posts were asking if you could try the SteamVR beta again and check what I was talking about with MS on and variable frame rates.

Sorry if I am missing something obvious.

[Supmua]

Valve Index Hands On

 

I’ll test it with non-beta SteamVR later today. Overall I didn’t see significant frame rate change but GPU utilization and temperature seemed to have increased? So the big question would be whether this is optimally increased vs downright inefficient.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Supmua

[imacken]

I’ll test it with non-beta SteamVR later today. Overall I didn’t see significant frame rate change but GPU utilization and temperature seemed have increased? So the big question would be whether this is optimally increased vs downright inefficient.

 

Yes, exactly. Because the frame rate is not locked to 45, the GPU is maxed out and the temp and utilisation go crazy!

[RealDCSpilot]

@imacken

 

 

Sorry, you mentioned post #856 :)

 

 

 

But yes, i checked SteamVR beta vs stable several times, it's definitely something with the beta.

[imacken]

@imacken

 

 

Sorry, you mentioned post #856 :)

 

 

 

But yes, i checked SteamVR beta vs stable several times, it's definitely something with the beta.

 

Ah, my mistake. I mean #854! Sorry!

[Supmua]

Yes, exactly. Because the frame rate is not locked to 45, the GPU is maxed out and the temp and utilisation go crazy!

 

 

 

Yeah, since the 2080Ti card’s top clockspeed is limited by GPU temp I can see that this could reduce the frame rate if your PC’s airflow is poor.

 

My 2080 Ti card, for example, can hit 2100 MHz but only if the GPU temp is around 50s. Anything higher than that the max speed is throttled down. The only way for me to maintain this temp would be water cooling which is somewhat of a hassle since I already did that with my CPU.

[Supmua]

PART 1:

 

OK, I've done some more testing using my replay track file so this way external variations among flights are out of the way.

 

With the non-beta SteamVR

Observation:

1. My avg FPS is 40.5 flying low in Dubai, according to fpsVR.

2. I either get a locked 45 fps (when fps is 45+) or 30 fps (when fps is below 45). I didn't not see anything below 40 fps with the SteamVR beta.

3. GPU max temp is 73C (vs 81C).

4. GPU max usage is 96% but only in brief spikes (vs 97-98% sustained with the latest SteamVR beta). Temp also drops quickly when FPS is below 45--which means the game also goes into 30 FPS mode.

 

Conclusion:

1. GPU utilization and temperture may not be optimal with the latest SteamVR beta, this may lead to overheat issue/freezing/shutdown in some PCs. The beta might allow maximum utilization of the GPU but it might not be a good thing since with prolonged stress and increased temperature can lead to other issues such as premature hardware failure, etc. I'd rather have periodic throttle down in temp/fps which will definitely prolong the life of my PC hardware in the long run.

2. With the current settings, my optimal refresh rate for the Index headset in this particular scenario would be either 80Hz (for 2:1 reprojection) or 120Hz (3:1) since I would be targeting 40 fps rather than 45 or 60. Of course, this is far from my typical DCS use as I don't normally fly low in congested area like this during regular gameplay.

3. 45 fps in Dubai is within the realm of possibility if I lower some of the settings.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Supmua

[imacken]

Guys, I'm not sure we're all talking about the same thing here. What I am saying is that the last 2 or 3 SteamVr beta versions (1.7) do not have Motion Smoothing working correctly. It is working fine in non beta SteamVR (1.6).

For me:

DCS in beta SteamVr with MS on - fps varies from 40-60 and GPU temps and usage go way up because it is not being limited and this is what causes the reported poor performance with juddering etc.

DCS in non beta SteamVR - everything is good. fps is a rock solid 45fps as it should be. (Very occasionally drops to 30, but again, that is correct behaviour.)

[RealDCSpilot]

My suspect #1 is:

 

 

https://steamcommunity.com/games/250820/announcements/detail/3536935351306139673

 

 

 

Compositor:

 

• Motion Smoothing no longer throttles applications that are primarily cpu bound (e.g. No Man’s Sky).
  

[imacken]

My suspect #1 is:

 

 

https://steamcommunity.com/games/250820/announcements/detail/3536935351306139673

 

 

 

Compositor:

 

• Motion Smoothing no longer throttles applications that are primarily cpu bound (e.g. No Man’s Sky).
  

I suspect you could be right, which is a little concerning as it would seem that they have designed it to behave this way rather than it being a bug.

[Supmua]

My suspect #1 is:

 

 

https://steamcommunity.com/games/250820/announcements/detail/3536935351306139673

 

 

 

Compositor:

 

• Motion Smoothing no longer throttles applications that are primarily cpu bound (e.g. No Man’s Sky).
  

 

 

So it looks like this is actually intended, which may not be a good thing for a lot of people especially overclockers. I'm not sure I like having my GPU temp staying constantly at 81C for a long play session. Might have to think about water cooling the GPU or adding more fans to my rig. The irony is that people have been asking for increased GPU utilization in VR, and now we have it...lol. For me, I'd rather have a balanced approach to this than maximum utilization.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Supmua

[Supmua]

Guys, I'm not sure we're all talking about the same thing here. What I am saying is that the last 2 or 3 SteamVr beta versions (1.7) do not have Motion Smoothing working correctly. It is working fine in non beta SteamVR (1.6).

For me:

DCS in beta SteamVr with MS on - fps varies from 40-60 and GPU temps and usage go way up because it is not being limited and this is what causes the reported poor performance with juddering etc.

DCS in non beta SteamVR - everything is good. fps is a rock solid 45fps as it should be. (Very occasionally drops to 30, but again, that is correct behaviour.)

 

 

 

It is the same thing. You’re looking at how this has affected your DCS gameplay but I’m looking at the consequences of this new change on my PC especially the GPU.

[Wicked.-]

What's the easiest way to switch back to the stable release of SteamVR from Beta?

 

 

Thanks,

[Supmua]

What's the easiest way to switch back to the stable release of SteamVR from Beta?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

In Steam app look for SteamVR. Right click and choose properties, then in beta tab, opt out of beta.