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LANTIRN Control for Pilot


VampireNZ

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I fail to see the difference between:

 

1) Using a keybind to tell Jester to change the antenna elevation

 

2) Using a keybind to tell Jester to pan the LANTIRN

 

This seems like a pretty silly hill to die on for the anti-pilot-controlling-LANTIRN folks.

 

Not to mention that the keybinds mod, as-is, is actually harder for the pilot than a proper Jester implementation would be. Right now, I have to manually go through the LANTIRN startup and operation procedures just as the RIO would. With a proper Jester AI function, I could give one command "Get the LANTIRN ready" and he'd do all that automatically.

You and all the people who argue that there is no difference between doing something yourself and telling someone else to do something either have no experience in that regard or just ignore the differences that are there. It starts with the factor time, because if you tell someone to do something means it won't happen instantly unlike you're doing it yourself. Even Jester does simulate that for some functions. Then there is the factor of misscommunication, meaning that when you tell someone something you might mean something different than what the other person understands. And then there is of course the factor of independent behaviour, meaning that the other person can do things on his own without you asking him to do that, which can be positive as well as negative.

So no, it's not the same at all!

 

 

Exactly. If realism is such a major requirement then might as well stop players from moving between RIO and Pilot.

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+1

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I'm not a friend of that Pilot can use Lantirn Pod...

There is so much more that you have to do from the backseat, and hey, its a two man ship. Accept it and use it as it was designed, or wait for the Tpod on the bug or use the A10c or AV8B.

If you need a RIO/Pilot online, you'll find one, for sure. You won't stuck alone out there.

 

For me, it feels kinda cheating if the Pilot can control the Lantirn in MP.

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My personal opinion is that HB should do the following things for the LANTIRN:

 

Make the LANTIRN commands available for the pilot, but don't map them. Let people who want it configure it and use it.

Make it a server-side option to disable the possibility of pilot-controlled LANTIRN (e.g. if the server wants to enforce said realism).

Automatically disable pilot control of LANTIRN when a human RIO is present.

 

 

People can have their cake and eat it too.

 

 

+1, Most sound solution so far.

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As has been noted, using LANTIRN with either Jester or through this “mod” means a significant increase in pilot workload. Whether the pilot directly controls LANTIRN or controls it through Jester doesn’t matter - he still has to control LANTIRN.

 

A single pilot has to be able to use LANTIRN in either of those two ways - otherwise that significantly limits singleplayer campaign or mission options. The two free campaigns for the F-14 - Cage the Bear and Operation Persian Gauntlet - both require the use of LANTIRN to play, and they are excellent campaigns that add hours of content to one of the best modules available in DCS.

 

There are a lot of other things Heatblur could be working on instead of developing a (likely) clunkier way to use LANTIRN as pilot through Jester. Keeping this “mod” so that Heatblur can focus on other things seems like the obvious no-brainer.

 

I'm not a friend of that Pilot can use Lantirn Pod...

There is so much more that you have to do from the backseat, and hey, its a two man ship. Accept it and use it as it was designed, or wait for the Tpod on the bug or use the A10c or AV8B.

If you need a RIO/Pilot online, you'll find one, for sure. You won't stuck alone out there.

 

For me, it feels kinda cheating if the Pilot can control the Lantirn in MP.

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As has been noted, using LANTIRN with either Jester or through this “mod” means a significant increase in pilot workload. Whether the pilot directly controls LANTIRN or controls it through Jester doesn’t matter - he still has to control LANTIRN.

 

A single pilot has to be able to use LANTIRN in either of those two ways - otherwise that significantly limits singleplayer campaign or mission options.

Well, that's just the way it should be. The Tomcat isn't meant to be flown alone. While Heatblur was nice enough to include a RIO AI, RAZBAM has already announced that their F-15E won't have that.

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Well, that's just the way it should be. The Tomcat isn't meant to be flown alone. While Heatblur was nice enough to include a RIO AI, RAZBAM has already announced that their F-15E won't have that.

 

 

That's a good way to cut out about 70% or more of the user base.

 

 

What they need to do then is split the mod in half, If you just want to fly then buy the pilot mod. Just RIO then buy that mod, if you think you may want both then buy both.


Edited by wfg.Reaper
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To clarify, you don’t want the pilot to control LANTIRN, and you don’t want one player to be able to move between pilot and RIO seats? With all due respect, that’s an unreasonable position.

 

What RAZBAM does with the F-15E is moot - that is their choice. Heatblur made the design decision to include Jester and Iceman from the ground up as integral parts of the F-14 module. Jester’s presence alone makes it possible for one person to operate a multi crew aircraft. If you apply your logic universally, that would also suggest you’d prefer the absence or Jester/Iceman altogether.

 

The question again becomes: why?

 

(It’s already been discussed that the LANTIRN mod doesn’t make anything easier, so the argument for unfairness is also invalid).

 

Well, that's just the way it should be. The Tomcat isn't meant to be flown alone. While Heatblur was nice enough to include a RIO AI, RAZBAM has already announced that their F-15E won't have that.

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To clarify, you don’t want the pilot to control LANTIRN, and you don’t want one player to be able to move between pilot and RIO seats? With all due respect, that’s an unreasonable position.

To clarify, I request that it will not be able to do stuff in the backseat from the frontseat and vice versa. While I would also appreciate it if it would be prohibited to switch between the seats midflights, it's not something I request. That's all for MP. I don't care what people do on their own in SP, except that I find it sad to see DCS becoming more and more of an arcade game.

 

 

(It’s already been discussed that the LANTIRN mod doesn’t make anything easier, so the argument for unfairness is also invalid).

In that case you have ignored my previous comment: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3948712&postcount=26

If you think that using the LANTIRN mod won't make anythink easier compared to relying on Jester using the LANTIRN, then you have a lot of faith in HBs LANTIRN implementation for Jester.

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Well, that's just the way it should be. The Tomcat isn't meant to be flown alone. While Heatblur was nice enough to include a RIO AI, RAZBAM has already announced that their F-15E won't have that.

 

That's a very bold decision on their part. Hope it works out for them.

 

Why would you care if the pilot can operate the LANTIRN or not ? if you don't want to take advantage of the workaround then don't, I really can't figure out why you wish to stop other people from doing so ?

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That's a very bold decision on their part. Hope it works out for them.

 

Why would you care if the pilot can operate the LANTIRN or not ? if you don't want to take advantage of the workaround then don't, I really can't figure out why you wish to stop other people from doing so ?

As I said before: I don't care what peopel do on their own in SP, but I do care about realism in MP.

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That's a very bold decision on their part. Hope it works out for them.

 

Why would you care if the pilot can operate the LANTIRN or not ? if you don't want to take advantage of the workaround then don't, I really can't figure out why you wish to stop other people from doing so ?

 

 

IMHO it should be rewarding for people to team up and be able to do things with the aircraft that a single player can't do. If it won't be necessary to have a human Rio nobody would be flying RIO anymore.

 

 

Right now in MP if you want to join as RIO you get most of the time the answer "Thx I'm fine with Jester." But if there's ground attacking involved you get more often a "Sure , hop in"

 

 

What I want to say is: Implement it as a SP only option. There should be no way for MP implementation.

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Well razbams mig 19 doesn't have most of the cockpit switches mapped so them not doing the back seater for the 15 doesn't supprise me.

I think you missunderstood. They will be doing the back seat for players to use, just no AI to occupy it.

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There's the simple idea that should make everyone happy: instead of the bindings actually operate the LANTIRN make it as direct commands to Jester (omitting the troublesome menu). That way e.g. you want to zoom in, use the binding from pilot seat, you hear the pilot command Jester to do it, Jester acknowledges it and make it happen in a few seconds.

It would make it real, have the real delay in commands, not just instant operation, and make it MP friendly for lone pilots. You want direct control - go backseat.

 

 

 

While I would also appreciate it if it would be prohibited to switch between the seats midflights, it's not something I request. That's all for MP.

Why, may I ask? It's part of the simulation - at one moment you can either be a pilot or a RIO, not both at the same time. The only argument I would take would be that you know sth that RIO doesn't, omitting communication makes it easier and faster to do. Is this the case?

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I have the mod installed but don't really use it as not really interested in mud moving. However if heatblur do decide to gimp it then they need to make sure jester can equally do what the pilot can do with the mod.

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There's the simple idea that should make everyone happy: instead of the bindings actually operate the LANTIRN make it as direct commands to Jester (omitting the troublesome menu). That way e.g. you want to zoom in, use the binding from pilot seat, you hear the pilot command Jester to do it, Jester acknowledges it and make it happen in a few seconds.

It would make it real, have the real delay in commands, not just instant operation, and make it MP friendly for lone pilots. You want direct control - go backseat.

Yeah, that would be alright, but how should that work exactly for things like pointing the LANTIRN 8° to the right? With direct controls you just hit slew right for as long as it takes the LANTIRN to turn 8°. Now, without direct control how would Jester know how far he should slew the pod?

 

It will be interesting to see how Heatblur will implement the LANTIRN functionality for Jester. Maybe they will include a command like "Jester, scan to the right untill you find a contact" or something like this.

 

 

Why, may I ask? It's part of the simulation - at one moment you can either be a pilot or a RIO, not both at the same time. The only argument I would take would be that you know sth that RIO doesn't, omitting communication makes it easier and faster to do. Is this the case?

Because switching seats is not part of real life. You stay in the seat that you entered on thr ground. So my reason for this is realism for the most part, although what you said is also part of it. It can be difficult to talk the other crewmember onto something that you have noticed and he doesn't and omitting this by just switching seats can be a helpful cheat in certain situations.


Edited by QuiGon

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Maybe they will include a command like "Jester, scan to the right untill you find a contact" or something like this.

Yeah, or:

1. "Jester, slew right"

2. Jester slews right slowly...

3. "Stop!" or "Lock this target", with some wiggle room allowed of course.

 

 

Because switching seats is not part of real life. You stay in the seat that you entered on thr ground. So my reason for this is realism for the most part, although what you said is also part of it. It can be difficult to talk the other crewmember onto something that you have noticed and he doesn't and omitting this by just switching seats can be a helpful cheat in certain situations.

Fair enough.

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Yeah, or:

1. "Jester, slew right"

2. Jester slews right slowly...

3. "Stop!" or "Lock this target", with some wiggle room allowed of course.

I guess that would work too. I actually did have a few talk-ons in that style when flying with a human RIO, so that's fine with me if you could work with Jester in that fashion as well.

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Yeah, or:

1. "Jester, slew right"

2. Jester slews right slowly...

3. "Stop!" or "Lock this target", with some wiggle room allowed of course.

 

 

 

Fair enough.

 

So tedious... feels like watching my mom surf the internet...

 

@QuiGon, I agree with you 99% of the time on here, and I'm all for realism, but Jester is not even close to realistic, and quite honestly, the net effect on MP servers of solo pilots having HOTAS control of the radar and pod up front is probably more realistic than Jester doing it. AI in DCS is either super stupid or has GOD vision...

 

That said, I think it'll be interesting how HB continues to develop Jester over time... but like with all things DCS, i'll be skeptical until I see it in action.


Edited by Banzaiib
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Well, that's just the way it should be. The Tomcat isn't meant to be flown alone. While Heatblur was nice enough to include a RIO AI, RAZBAM has already announced that their F-15E won't have that.

 

The big difference between the Tomcat and Mudhen is that any system in the Mudhen can be accessed by either station, so while there is a natural division of labor there are no restrictions on what is accessible. In other words, while having a human WSO in a F-15E would be great, flying one solo would not pre-empt anybody from utilizing any weapons systems.

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+1.

 

Adding LANTIRN functionality to Jester is an incredibly difficult task (I genuinely don’t know why people wouldn’t rather have Heatblur working on other functionality). The mod is a great hybrid solution that keeps pilots in the front seat while still allowing for single pilot functionality. Reinventing the wheel when the solution already exists doesn’t make any sense - especially when you consider certain basic limitations of DCS (e.g. the tracking algorithm for Area/Point track).

 

At the end of the day, this is an amazingly detailed, beautifully executed simulation - but it’s not real life. It is a game. There has to be compromise between “realism” and gameplay, including the recognition that the limitations of the game alone make certain compromises necessary.

 

@QuiGon, I agree with you 99% of the time on here, and I'm all for realism, but Jester is not even close to realistic, and quite honestly, the net effect on MP servers of solo pilots having HOTAS control of the radar and pod up front is probably more realistic than Jester doing it. AI in DCS is either super stupid or has GOD vision...

 

The big difference between the Tomcat and Mudhen is that any system in the Mudhen can be accessed by either station, so while there is a natural division of labor there are no restrictions on what is accessible. In other words, while having a human WSO in a F-15E would be great, flying one solo would not pre-empt anybody from utilizing any weapons systems.

Edited by TacoGrease
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So tedious... feels like watching my mom surf the internet...

 

@QuiGon, I agree with you 99% of the time on here, and I'm all for realism, but Jester is not even close to realistic, and quite honestly, the net effect on MP servers of solo pilots having HOTAS control of the radar and pod up front is probably more realistic than Jester doing it. AI in DCS is either super stupid or has GOD vision...

 

That said, I think it'll be interesting how HB continues to develop Jester over time... but like with all things DCS, i'll be skeptical until I see it in action.

I totally agree with you, that Jester is far from being realistic, which is why I would prefer him to not be there at all.

 

 

+1.

 

Adding LANTIRN functionality to Jester is an incredibly difficult task (I genuinely don’t know why people wouldn’t rather have Heatblur working on other functionality). The mod is a great hybrid solution that keeps pilots in the front seat while still allowing for single pilot functionality. Reinventing the wheel when the solution already exists doesn’t make any sense - especially when you consider certain basic limitations of DCS (e.g. the tracking algorithm for Area/Point track).

Same here, if Jester wouldn't be a thing that would free up a lot of resources that could be used for the development of other functions. There is not even a need for unrealistic replicated functions in the wrong seat, because we already have multicrew to take care of that, so no need for such a compromise...

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With all due respect, you’ve completely missed Banzaii’s point as well as mine. Neither one of us is saying to get rid of Jester or Iceman - that should be clear. While I cannot speak for Banzaii, I am personally referring to Heatblur allocating resources to developing Jester LANTIRN functionality when this “mod” already provides an excellent, elegant, and simple solution to an otherwise complex problem. Keep the “mod,” make it official, and move on to developing other features or correcting other bugs. Again, there’s no need to reinvent the wheel here.

 

Multi crew is not always possible or desirable, full stop. So your “solution” - that the F-14 only be used in multiplayer with a human RIO - is a non-starter.

 

Heatblur made the design decision years ago to allow a single player to operate a two-seat aircraft. They have consciously made the decision to make it more accessible and more flexible, and the continued additions of Jester functionality should make it obvious that that decision has not changed.

 

If anything, QuiGon, given that Jester and Iceman are not disappearing from the game as you prefer, you should be a fan of this “mod.” As I’ve made quite plain, using the current LANTIRN Pilot solution would allow Heatblur to readily focus on developing other features. And, obviously, less time spent on developing Jester/Iceman functionality means more time can be spent on developing the features you want. Seems like a no-brainer.

 

Edit: LANTIRN Pilot solution, as it currently exists, seems like the fastest single player solution for manipulating LANTIRN effectively. As others have pointed out, a Jester-based solution would likely be much slower. However, even now, a human RIO/human pilot teaming will still be able to operate more effectively than a single pilot using the LANTIRN Pilot solution. Thus, the incentive to still use a competent human RIO when possible is preferable - that hasn’t changed.

 

I totally agree with you, that Jester is far from being realistic, which is why I would prefer him to not be there at all.

 

 

 

Same here, if Jester wouldn't be a thing that would free up a lot of resources that could be used for the development of other functions. There is not even a need for unrealistic replicated functions in the wrong seat, because we already have multicrew to take care of that, so no need for such a compromise...


Edited by TacoGrease

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- Maps: NTTR, Persian Gulf, Normandy

- Modules: FC3, F-14A/B, F/A-18C, AV-8B, A-10C, F-16C, F-86, KA-50, P-51D, WWII assets, and [insert campaign name]

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Make it an offical item and then make it a server/mission optional flag for Multiplayer use.. problem solved.

 

Though honestly the I don't want it argument is BS just because you don't want it doesn't mean that a lot of others don't as well, there is nothing ever stopping you, yourself ever using it etc. But lets face some very hard facts here.. DCS is a 'Game' I know we call it a Simulator, that's the Genre of 'Game' that it falls into. We use it for 'Entertainment' and a lot of the time even in Multiplayer you may not be able to get a RIO full stop.

 

Jesters great but he sucks at a lot of things, give me a Rio any day, but saying 'oh if you don't like it fly another jet', that's not a valid argument you can make either because every one else has paid their money just as much as you have and simply because your against something again doesn't make your point the only one. The Cat is already at times a very hands on bird for the pilot I don't think any one here would say otherwise, unless you have the alt hold on your CONSTANTLY flying the bird, ontop of that if Jester is your RIO your also typically doing far more monitoring of the Radar then you would with a Real RIO.. because Jester, your having to tell him things using the command wheel etc, being able to 'Slew' the Targeting pod and tell it to lase etc through a set of keybinds when you have jester is just well... common sense, i mean how else are HB honestly going to do it? And yes I would love to hear even HB come out and say how they plan on this system to work for a few reasons:

 

1. The whole point of the TGP is to let you strike any target, not just preplanned ones, it was what allowed the 'Cat' to actually be allowed to do true CAS, prior to it's fitting they were basically not allowed anywhere near any troops after it was fit even the Navy pilots mentioned that they basically never left the boat with out it. (honestly there's a really good 70 page magazine write up on the bomcat it's an awesome read if you want the history)

2. If your stuck using the Jester wheel to search for targets then ah.. how exactly? With out basically making Jester an even worse 'cheat'? then the pilot controlling it? I mean even if you did something like a Radial with 'Scan for Targets' right.. how is he going to know if a 'bridge' is your target? or which specific building etc? I mean the Cat's Co-ords don't exactly allow 0.1m accuracy rather 'ball park'.

3. Why is the pilot controlling it bad, other then the argument that of 'But its a 2 person plane and another group won't add an to their plane (which could likely very much be they don't know how to code it etc.. I mean we don't know if HB have to 'share' the tech after all it wouldn't be the first time that 3rd parties don't share their tech within the same environment).

 

Right now As the Cat stands by HB themselves you can fly the Cat with 1 HUMAN player, because they like 99% of the rest of us realised that your not going to always be able to get another HUMAN who wants to sit in the backseat. We already all know that 2 Humans are typically way, way better then a Player and Jester, watch any pilot who has a human rio and you can see that, why? because the RIO is taking a lot of the work away from the pilot so he can fly and fight while they find and track. By adding the TGP slew your not making the Pilots life easier in Multiplayer.. your making it harder, their eyes now have to be DOWN looking at the repeater rather then OUT keeping an eye for Missile Launches, Bandits etc.. Eg they aren't getting an advantage that's for certain.

 

All it does is allow 1 person to fly the jet when they can't get a human rio and at least use it's abilities.

 

And again if it's such a 'big' deal and I don't see why it should be, make it a server/mission option to 'lock out' Pilot TGP use.

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