KA-50 RADAR Warning Receiver

[Gloom Demon]

If a chopper, travelling at 60 mph to avoid detection, is being fired upon with an AMRAAM, travelling at 3045 mph i really doubt, that the pilot will have sufficient time to react. At a 10 mile range it would take the AMRAAM roughly 12 seconds to reach it's target - I do not think that this is enough to perform an effective evasion maneuver...

Edited July 4, 2019 by Gloom Demon

[pepin1234]

You need learn then...

[Murey2]

Just imagine being able to tell if you're at all spiked by radars or not! not like sudden explosion and next thing you know is that you are done.

[Grodlund]

You all make good points.

But as mentioned. The Helo was never made to operate in "High threat theatres" for once.

Also, it was expected to be accompanied by other helicopters, Like the Mi-24 for example.

 

What we have now is basically the worst case scenario.

A theatre full of hostile radars, fighters, no way to listen to AWACS or GCI, and no accompanying Hinds.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Grodlund

[GGTharos]

30 seconds (3sec/nm in this situation, for average type shots).

 

If a chopper, travelling at 60 mph to avoid detection, is being fired upon with an AMRAAM, travelling at 3045 mph i really doubt, that the pilot will have sufficient time to react. At a 10 mile range it would take the AMRAAM roughly 12 seconds to reach it's target - I do not think that this is enough to perform an effective evasion maneuver...

[GGTharos]

Use AWACS. The aircraft doesn't seem to have an RWR so you're not getting one.

 

OMG! guys all you care about is the Ground radar SAMs, I'm crying about it because I want some kind of early warning against Air Radar threats.

[3WA]

Hmm, I'm not familiar with that system. How do we contact AWACS? I really need to study the data link system.

 

 

As for RWR, a lot of sites say the President-S included RWR and "radar jamming". Though they do say the modular systems varied for plane, heli, etc.

 

 

But as mentioned. The Helo was never made to operate in "High threat theatres" for once.

 

 

Some of the missions can get pretty bad. Especially if you do a fast mission.

 

 

Battle.miz for instance drops you right at the front line of a HUGE tank battle, with 4 AH-1W's about 5km away. And of course, they instantly come gunning for you.

 

 

Modern battles these days seem to be a lot more hap-hazard and guerilla warfare like. You just don't know what's going to be thrown at you once your discovered.

 

 

Which is why I wanted Igla's, and FLIR so I could fly in the cover of night. At least MAYBE some of the enemy don't have night vision.

 

 

Igla's aren't near as good as R-73, of course. But there something to throw at the Fighters, and hopefully make them break off their attack, while you dive for the tree line and cover.

Edited July 4, 2019 by 3WA

[GGTharos]

For a heli they're better than a 73. The 73 relies on that initial speed given to it by the aircraft, the Igla does not. Smaller warhead, a little less maneuverable, yes, but effective.

[Grodlund]

Currently, there is no way to listen to AWACS/GCI in the KA-50

Presumably because of the modules age.

 

With all other modules, you simply have to dial in the radio to the correct radio freq.

As of now, doing this in the KA-50 does nothing. Even yhough you are on the correct freq, you hear nothing, and there is no option to call them on in radio menu.

[Boberro]

I would like have an RWR too :D

I could get warning that S-300 launched at me a missile 2 km further xD

[GGTharos]

That's fair, sounds like a bug that needs to be reported.

 

Currently, there is no way to listen to AWACS/GCI in the KA-50

Presumably because of the modules age.

 

With all other modules, you simply have to dial in the radio to the correct radio freq.

As of now, doing this in the KA-50 does nothing. Even yhough you are on the correct freq, you hear nothing, and there is no option to call them on in radio menu.

[3WA]

Being able to get AWACS feed would be VERY nice!

 

 

I would like have an RWR too

I could get warning that S-300 launched at me a missile 2 km further xD

 

 

Yeah, but shouldn't the new President-S alert you to missile launch? Really doesn't matter what the missile is, since all we have are flares.

 

 

Because of rotor wash, could we even carry chaff?

 

 

The only option is too keep low and near cover. It can't hit you if you can put tree's or a building in between.

Edited July 4, 2019 by 3WA

[GGTharos]

Yes, helis do use chaff. They're not entirely defenseless, but they also don't want to be in uncontested space. When in a heli you want air superiority or at least you want your fighters in there.

[Murey2]

30 seconds (3sec/nm in this situation, for average type shots).

 

 

30 sec. or 30 min. if the pilot i unaware how does the time make any difference?!

[Fri13]

 

Now, Modern Radars get around this by looking to detect the one thing a helicopter cannot hide, its rotors. The Rotors present a very distinct Doppler effect as the blades are rapidly moving towards and away from the observer as they rotate. If set up for it, the radar will return anything that matches that rapid Doppler flickering as a helicopter. However, due to the smaller comparative size of the rotor blades, a hovering helicopter will be detected at a shorter range than a fast moving one (which presents a normal doppler return just like a plane).

 

All radars sees helicopters, problem is just that can you target them as they are to radars as a huge jammers.

 

Helicopter blades are rotating near speed of sound barrier (but not to break it, as they can't withstand it) and they moves all the time all directions and constantly at various speed. Tips of the blades are the fastest, near the hub is the slowest.

There is advancing blade and retrieving blade and huge directional speed spikes to all over the place. Why you can't lock on it with radar that has no filters to understand it. But you would see it.

 

Even alone a normal weather turbine that has like a 3-20 RPM is visible on a radar from very long distances. And they need to be set to filtering a black zone, that the radar can't see behind then.

 

It doesn't matter how fast the helicopter moves or does it even fly as long it has main rotor rotating it is spotted by the radar.

 

And that is one of the challenges of the helicopter pilots against SAM/AA systems and their search radars as once your main rotor goes to their line of sight, you are spotted and question is just about the time the crew reacts to your presence and engage you.

 

The big benefit with the rotor is that it is as well jamming your fuselage, but anyways when modern radars has the fitler for helicopters, it doesn't matter

[Fri13]

Being able to get AWACS feed would be VERY nice!

 

The ABRIS should be able receive datalink updates from the network, the reconnaissance teams spotting targets etc.

 

Hopefully it gets implemented in the upgrade

 

Yeah, but shouldn't the new President-S alert you to missile launch? Really doesn't matter what the missile is, since all we have are flares.

 

Because of rotor wash, could we even carry chaff?

 

Sure we could use chaff. The chaff is not magically vanishing once its speed drops. As we are talking about huge cloud of the reflective material that is generating huge speed difference to radar. Blocks the radar seeing through it, as to recognize the chaff speed. Why you are not allowed to release chaff as it is disturbing radar operations for hours and even days depending weather. And helicopter would nicely quickly scatter it all around the place, effectively creating a huge target blob for hovering helicopter, or huge blob when flying around.

 

In DCS currently the chaff is very unrealistic, it is like flare but just made to be reacted by radar guided missiles. Hopefully in the future we see a lot better chaff simulation.

 

It would be nice to start to see how you blind your own radars, your own radar, your missiles etc by filling the air with the chaff by releasing it stupidly.

[pepin1234]

The ABRIS should be able receive datalink updates from the network, the reconnaissance teams spotting targets etc.

 

Hopefully it gets implemented in the upgrade.

 

In the current Ka-50 we have the option to set a datalink network with AWACS? I don’t believe only radio freq is needed to do that. Should be a knob or Abris option to activate datalink network. I think you are doing a guess for the Ka-50v3

[David OC]

It would be nice to have an RWR.

 

The server I play on.

 

It seems the Ka-50 is easily seen by opposition GCI (With Fog of war on) AWACS, SAMS, Aircraft etc. F-15 sees everything. Will test the "flying slower" to see if it helps detection online.

 

We have GCI most of the time that helps with knowing when aircraft could be targeting us. (Hide)

 

Will be nice to have a real weapon to shoot back now. So many kills I could have gotten in the Ka-50..... (Aircraft trying to strafe us)

 

Good to fly with the Gazelle if available. Gazelle/missile/RWR is a monster online when combined with GCI. Should be fun when we also have igla missiles.

 

In the current Ka-50 we have the option to set a datalink network with AWACS? I don’t believe only radio freq is needed to do that. Should be a knob or Abris option to activate datalink network. I think you are doing a guess for the Ka-50v3

 

The Ka-50 does update targets on the Abris now in MP. It seems to update AAA Anti-aircraft ground target positions from what I have seen.

Edited July 5, 2019 by David OC

[pepin1234]

The Ka-50 does update targets on the Abris now in MP. It seems to update AAA Anti-aircraft ground target positions from what I have seen.

 

I am talking about Air threats from AWACS.

[Fri13]

In the current Ka-50 we have the option to set a datalink network with AWACS? I don’t believe only radio freq is needed to do that. Should be a knob or Abris option to activate datalink network. I think you are doing a guess for the Ka-50v3

 

No, I am talking about the real one that was taken in the Chechen war and installed just before deployment (our KA-50).

And I am not talking about AWACS but a reconnaissance teams updating the target positions.

 

The KA-50 was designed to operate with the ground troops, not as individual hunter-killer but being able receive targets for map from various sources, not just between the flight.

 

The datalink is not just Aircraft <-> AWACS but all various elements are combined to one via GCI, the AWACS is just one of the element in the GCI network, primarily for air targets, but of course AWACS can as well gather other data too from the network

[Fri13]

You all make good points.

But as mentioned. The Helo was never made to operate in "High threat theatres" for once.

 

It was designed as recon helicopter work strike capability.

You don't do recon while behind your front units.

 

Also, it was expected to be accompanied by other helicopters, Like the Mi-24 for example.[\quote]

 

It was designed to replace the Mi-24 fleet. Mi-8 to perform the usual lifting operations and KA-50 the support, strike and recon.

 

It was designed to be accompanied by KA-52 that works as group leader, but in trials and in war KA-29 was used as command helicopter and target designator.

 

The first flights in war were done with Mi-24 as KA-50 was single seater and KA-52 wasn't ready. After pilots learning the terrain, the KA-50 was taken in operation.

 

What we have now is basically the worst case scenario.

A theatre full of hostile radars, fighters, no way to listen to AWACS or GCI, and no accompanying Hinds.

 

What we have is limited war against a enemy that can't communicate but has all seeing eye, but has units that a major military country would have, but doesn't have infantry (army).

[3WA]

It was designed as recon helicopter work strike capability.

You don't do recon while behind your front units.[/Quote]

 

 

My thoughts exactly. You're beyond your front lines, hitting into the enemy tank units and their air cover. Which sometimes includes enemy fighters.

 

 

There are no rules in war, and when the enemy detects you, they're going to send in whatever they have available to take you out. I prefer to be armed against enemy fighters ( at least Igla's, to fend them off from direct attack runs), radar SAMs, and whatever else is out there. And if we are being led by a Ka-52, it would make sense that the Ka-50 would have FLIR as well. Night time is the best time for stealth and ambush, which is what heli's were made for. The more cover, the better.

[S.E.Bulba]

Google Translate

 

… It was designed to replace the Mi-24 fleet. Mi-8 to perform the usual lifting operations and KA-50 the support, strike and recon.

 

It was designed to be accompanied by KA-52 that works as group leader, but in trials and in war KA-29 was used as command helicopter and target designator.

 

The first flights in war were done with Mi-24 as KA-50 was single seater and KA-52 wasn't ready. After pilots learning the terrain, the KA-50 was taken in operation…

Do not confuse cause and effect.

1. The root cause of the Ka-50 becoming a single-seat helicopter is the requirements of the military technical order to surpass the AH-64A's flight performance. In this case, at that time (late 1970s), they had not even thought about any 'group leader' or 'target designator' for the Ka-50.
   
2. After creating and testing the first samples of the helicopter, it came to the realization that even with a high degree of automation of the machine, it would be difficult for one pilot to conduct reconnaissance and search for targets. 'Kamov' comes to the decision to create a specialized reconnaissance helicopter for the Ka-50. This helicopter was supposed to be the Ka-60, which began to be developed after 1984.
   
3. However, as a result of the economic and political upheavals in the USSR and then in Russia, in the late 1980s and then in the 1990s, the Ka-60 project first slowed down and then stopped altogether. In this regard, 'Kamov' decides to make a 'target designator' for the Ka-50 with minimal rework, and accordingly with minimal financial costs, but at the same time to give the new reconnaissance helicopter the functions of the 'group leader' for the Ka-50. So in 1996 came the Ka-52.
   
4. After the creation of the Ka-52, the Russian military lost interest in the Ka-50, for the reason that the concept of a single-seat attack helicopter became irrelevant in the 21st century. The wars of the 21st century required equal use of the attack helicopter both day and night, including in adverse weather conditions. Military experts, including the developers of the JSC Kamov, recognized that the current stage of technical development, one pilot will not be able to fly a helicopter at extremely low altitudes and simultaneously search for targets at night and in adverse weather conditions. It will be very dangerous even with external target designation, and with a high degree of automation of the helicopter, with a modern FLIR, NVD, etc.
   
5. After the final development of the Mi-28N and Ka-52 by the end of the 2000s, the Russian Ministry of Defense decides to accept these machines as the main attack helicopters for the Russian army. The project of the Ka-50 single-seat attack helicopter closes as obsolete, that is, as a project that does not meet the conditions of modern warfare.
   

In Chechnya, the Ka-29VPNTsU was used for the reason that the Ka-60 project had already been stopped, and the Ka-52 project had just begun to be developed. Therefore, at least some helicopter was needed, which would be the target designator for the Ka-50 during combat tests in Chechnya.

 

Original in Russian

 

Не следует путать причины и следствия.

1. Первопричина того, что Ка-50 стал одноместным вертолётом – это требования военного технического задания превзойти лётно-технические характеристики AH-64A. При этом, на тот период (в конце 1970-х годов) ещё даже не думали ни о каком «лидере группы» или «целеуказателе» для Ка-50.
   
2. После создания и испытания первых образцов вертолёта, пришло осознание того, что даже при высокой степени автоматизации машины, одному пилоту будет в любом случае сложно производить разведку и поиск целей. «Камов» приходит к решению создания специализированного вертолёта разведчик-целеуказателя для Ка-50. Таким вертолётом должен был стать Ка-60, который начал разрабатываться после 1984 года.
   
3. Однако в результате произошедших в конце 1980-х годов, а затем в 1990-х годах, экономических и политических потрясений в СССР, а затем и в России, проект создания Ка-60 сначала замедлился, а затем и вовсе остановился. В связи с этим, «Камов» принимает решение сделать «целеуказатель» для Ка-50 с минимальными переделками, а соответственно и с минимальными финансовыми затратами, но при этом дать ещё новому разведывательному вертолёту функции «лидера группы» для Ка-50. Так в 1996 году появился Ка-52.
   
4. После создания Ка-52, российские военные потеряли интерес к Ка-50, по той причине, что концепция одноместного ударного вертолёта стала неактуальна в XXI веке. Войны XXI века требовали равнозначного применения ударного вертолета как днём, так и ночью, в том числе и в сложных метеоусловиях. Военными экспертами, в том числе и разработчиками ОАО «Камов», было признано, что на текущем этапе технического развития, один пилот не сможет пилотировать вертолёт на предельно малых высотах и одновременно производить поиск целей ночью и в сложных метеоусловиях. Это будет очень опасно даже при наличии внешнего целеуказания и высокой степени автоматизации вертолёта, с наличием современного тепловизора, очков ночного видения и т.п.
   
5. После окончательной доработки Ми-28Н и Ка-52 к концу 2000-х годов, Минобороны России решает принять данные машины в качестве основных ударных вертолётов для российской армии. Проект одноместного ударного вертолёта Ка-50 закрывается как устаревший, то есть как проект, не соответствующий условиям современной войны.
   

В Чечне использовался Ка-29ВПНЦУ по той причине, что проект Ка-60 уже был остановлен, а проект Ка-52 ещё только начал разрабатываться. Поэтому требовался хоть какой-нибудь вертолёт, который бы был целеуказателем для Ка-50 в ходе боевых испытаний в Чечне.

 

… So: To avoid detection, your best bet is to stay low and <60kph when moving in areas likely to have radars that can immediately target you. This is on the premise that any of what have just written is modelled properly in DCS (my experience with AI F5Es suggests it isn't really)…

<…>

На счет видимости вертолетов: все сильно зависит от расстояния и частоты повторения импульсов РЛС. В ДВБ, радар не видит цели медленнее ЕМНИП 140 км/ч (в симуляторе), но на коротких дистанциях, когда радар переходит на среднюю частоту повторения импульсов, ограничение по относительной радиальности скорости цели сильно уменьшается. В ближнем бое и СЧП РЛС видит практически на любых ракурсах и скоростях сближения.

<…>

<…>

Regarding the visibility of helicopters: everything strongly depends on the distance and frequency of the radar pulse repetition. In long-range air combat, the radar does not see targets that are slower, AFAIR, 140km/h (in the simulator), but at short distances, when the radar switches to the average pulse repetition rate, the limit on the relative radiality of the speed at which the target moves is greatly reduced. In close combat and at an average repetition rate, the radar sees practically at any angles and speeds of approach.

<…>

Edited July 6, 2019 by S.E.Bulba
correction.

[3WA]

Thanks Bulba! That is REALLY interesting.

[Murey2]

Let's wait and see if ED is going to impress us with the new Ka-50v3 or not?!

 

 

I hope that we'll get everything we asked for. The following is a must in the new Ka-50, I'll be disappointed to not see at least all the below:

 

1- RWR.

2- FLIR.

3- A-A Missiles.

4- IR jammer.

5- 6 Wings Hard Points.