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Which Tornado do you want?


CyMPAK

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In regards of the british variants I go with GR.4. Based on Infos from the Web the GR.1 variant had no FLIR, LASER, GPSWR and no night time operation capabilities.

There's some false information here. The Tornado was night and all-weather capable from the very beginning. Not sure what makes you think the GR.1 was not night/all-weather capable? :huh:

 

The GR.1 recieved the TIALD targeting pod for Dessert Storm, which includes FLIR and LASER. This was a rushed stopgap solution though, untill it was properly implemented for the GR.4. The crews had no time to train with the TIALD prior to Dessert Storm, so they had to learn it there.

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There's some false information here. The Tornado was night and all-weather capable from the very beginning. Not sure what makes you think the GR.1 was not night/all-weather capable? :huh:

 

The GR.1 recieved the TIALD targeting pod for Dessert Storm, which includes FLIR and LASER. This was a rushed stopgap solution though, untill it was properly implemented for the GR.4. The crews had no time to train with the TIALD prior to Dessert Storm, so they had to learn it there.

 

Anybody here who can explain the differences of the tornado IDS variants? That would help a lot. I would love to know in detail what Night-Combat-Capability in GR.1 had looked like and why they had to develope "night-combat-capability" in the GR.4 after all. What are the exact Features of the GR.1? An Overall feature list?

 

Like someone else mentioned, I would love to fly a F-14D not F-14A Tornado :D


Edited by MKev

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Anybody here who can explain the differences of the tornado IDS variants? That would help a lot. I would love to know in detail what Night-Combat-Capability in GR.1 had looked like and why they had to develope "night-combat-capability" in the GR.4 after all. What are the exact Features of the GR.1? An Overall feature list?

 

Like someone else mentioned, I would love to fly a F-14D not F-14A Tornado :D

I have the suspicion, that the "night combat capability" you're talking about for the GR.4 was the integration of NVGs and the TGP. The GR.1's night/all-weather capability was based on it's radars and nav system, that allowed it to hit a target with pinpoint accuracy without seeing it (like all Cold War night/all-weather strike aircraft). The original IDS was equipped with:

- an INS, that allowed it to navigate precisely,

- a ground mapping radar, that allowed it to find its targets in zero visibility conditions.

- a terrain following radar, that allowed it to conduct low level flying in zero visibility conditions.

That's what made it night/all-weather capable.

 

We DCS players, who are used to state of the art 4th generation jets, seem to forget how things worked during the Cold War, where the focus was on low level interdiction strikes, that worked different than the CAS and precision strikes of todays conflicts. The ability to conduct low level flying is something that has deteriorated in NATO air forces since the Cold War. Pilots don't really train that anymore and things like terrain following radars are missing on modern fighter jets.


Edited by QuiGon
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I have the suspicion, that the "night combat capability" you're talking about for the GR.4 was the integration of NVGs and the TGP. The GR.1's night/all-weather capability was based on it's radars and nav system, that allowed it to hit a target with pinpoint accuracy without seeing it (like all Cold War night/all-weather strike aircraft). The original IDS was equipped with:

- an INS, that allowed it to navigate precisely,

- a ground mapping radar, that allowed it to find its targets in zero visibility conditions.

- a terrain following radar, that allowed it to conduct low level flying in zero visibility conditions.

That's what made it night/all-weather capable.

 

We DCS players, who are used to state of the art 4th generation jets, seem to forget how things worked during the Cold War, where the focus was on low level interdiction strikes, that worked different than the CAS and precision strikes of todays conflicts. The ability to conduct low level flying is something that has deteriorated in NATO air forces since the Cold War. Pilots don't really train that anymore and things like terrain following radars are missing on modern fighter jets.

 

Thanks for the Information. Yes I recently heard in a German Documentary about the Tornado that the Pilots had to trust there systems (Ground Mapping Radar and Terrain Following Radar) to fly save in low level flights at night. There was also one of the main test pilots interviewed who was part of the Tornado program for decades. I also recently learned, that the Tornado IDS has the Aim-9 Lima as the only weapon that is used as defence against air threads. But the no. 1 Priority is to dive low and try to escape, since this Tornado is a heavy bomber-jet that is not doing well in Air to Air combat and therefor, air combat is the last resort.

 

The only full Air Combat capable variant is the ADV if I remember right, but this platform would not be that interesting I suppose. As a German kid that grew up with his US Family parts and contact to the US Military (One of my Uncles was Tank Commander in 2nd Golf war 1990-1991 "Operation Desert Storm") I never had the Tornado on the Radar. So it is some kind of discovering the Tornado and its state of the art technology it had when it came into active duty.

 

I am still digging all information about this platform and checking some documentaries. When I find a good one I will share.

 

Let us hope that Heatblur is going for the Tornado. It is a realy interesting and capable Aircraft with an compelling story behind it. My wish would be that Heatblur does a all around Tornado Module Pack where you are able to switch between a GR.1 or GR.4 and a German variant like the ASSTA 2 for example inkluding sub variants like IDS / ECR / ADV where the interior and cockpit will change depending on the module you use. Similar with switching from F-14B to F-14A when its done. It sounds a lot and I may be wrong, but as far as I was able to read and see in two documentaries so far, it seems that this Tornado and its Variants has huge similarities except a few systems and weapons loadout based on its role. And that would be something amazing to finally have in DCS. I would pay even $100 for such a module without thinking twice. I remember from the old Falcon4 days that you where able two switch platform variants of the F-16 and you had the coresponding differences. I miss something like that in DCS. I dont expect that a developer has to release all its modules with all possible variants. But if there is a Airplane that offers to do so because there are more similarities than differences, I would be very pleased to see such an effort. What do you guys think? Like I said, I may be wrong but Tornado and its variants sound promising.

 

regards


Edited by MKev

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What are the Pro's & Con's that speak for Heatblur having the best skills for doing the Tornado?:

 

- They already gained experience with a low level attack aircraft: Viggen

- They already gained experience with wing sweep

- They already gained experience with terrain following radar

- They proofed with F-14 how good they are in research & development of flight models

- The Tornado fits the knowledge and Time period of Viggen and F-14

- Most weapons and systems of the Tornado are similar or at least comparable with Viggen and F-14

- They have experience with reverse thrust implementation

- They have experience with avionics and systems of that time period shown in development of Viggen and F-14

- they have .... many more... they are gods in aircraft simulation - period.

 

 

Does anybody else have something to add to this list? Anything that speaks against it or even some more pro's I did not manage to mention?

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I also recently learned, that the Tornado IDS has the Aim-9 Lima as the only weapon that is used as defence against air threads.

For the british, yes, but German (and maybe also Italian) Tornados are equipped with the remarkable IRIS-T missile, which we will get for the Eurofighter in DCS. It's still just a Fox 2, but a much better one than the AIM-9L. But A-A is still a last ressort and a Tornado does indeed rather use it's speed down low to gtfo.

 

It is a realy interesting and capable Aircraft with an compelling story behind it.

It is indeed!

 

My wish would be that Heatblur does a all around Tornado Module Pack

I just wish for the classic Cold War Tornado IDS and the ASSTA3 Tornado. I'm not really interested in the ADV, as I said before, as it is a weird step child that filled a role, which the basic airframe was never intended for. I would be interested in the Tornado ECR in theory, but DCS is way to limited in regards to Electronic Warfare, so you couldn't do much with it. If it's just about lobbing HARMs, then the IDS can do that just fine.

 

or even some more pro's I did not manage to mention?

Yes, the most important one IMHO: Jester/Multicrewing, which they delivered for the F-14!


Edited by QuiGon
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...

 

Yes, the most important one IMHO: Jester/Multicrewing, which they delivered for the F-14!

 

How could I forget that. True true.

 

I just heard in a documentary that the Tornado is capable of flying Automated in low altitude flight while evading terrain. Is this a Autopilot subroutine or is this something special? Would love to know more about it.

 

regards.

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Regarding Tornado variants, the original Cold War IDS and the GR1 are basically the same - older INS, dumb bombs, TFR/ground mapping radar, AIM-9L for self defense only, 2 guns.

 

The British had two sub-variants of the GR1: the GR1A was a recon variant in which one gun was removed to make room for cameras, the GR1B was the anti-shipping variant which could carry the Sea Eagle. German and Italian IDS also had anti shipping capabilities, but they carried the Kormoran instead. Also, British GR1s could carry the ALARM anti-radiation missile, while Italian and German ones could not. Finally, both countermeasure/ECM pods and the anti-runway cluster munition used by British and German/Italian Tornadoes were a bit different, but I couldn't tell you how.

 

Over time all operators upgraded their jets in similar ways. They all got targeting pods (although not that depends on the operator), LGBs, JDAM and Storm Shadow and went from being low level strikers to mid level, standoff range platforms. The main differences between the British GR4 and the Italian/German ones are

a) the British ones carry the Brimstone missile, while Italian ones a similar precision strike role use the SDB (not sure about German jets)

b) the British Tornadoes lost the ability to fire the ALARM, while Italian and German ones gained the ability to fire both the HARM and, in case of the Italian ones, the AGM-88E AARGM

c) the British jets have a flir/laser spot tracker under the nose, for which a gun also had to be removed. This means that the GR4A (GR1A upgrades) have no guns. German and Italian Tornadoes retain both guns

d) the GR4 never carried the ASRAAM as far as I know, while Italian and German jets carry the IRIS-T now.

e) all three got GPS receivers, better INS, and datalink

 

Saudi jets also have been upgraded to similar standards, but I'm not sure how. That's the gist of it.

 

 

edit: regarding the autopilot, it's similar to the F-111. You set the altitude at which you want to navigate (a few hundreds of feet or whatever), and the autopilot just takes over and, using information from the TFR and INS, flies the jet to the target without needing inputs from the pilot (although they still need to pay attention obviously). This is what gave the Tornado its all weather, day and night capability during the Cold War, and its main mission during the first part of Desert Storm.

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I just heard in a documentary that the Tornado is capable of flying Automated in low altitude flight while evading terrain. Is this a Autopilot subroutine or is this something special? Would love to know more about it.

Yes, that's a feature of the Terrain Following Radar (TFR). It has an autopilot function that allows the aircraft to do hands off low level flying, even at night. AFAIK, you can select the ride height, as well as the ride mode (soft, medium, hard), which changes how hard the aircraft tries to follow the terrain.

 

 

Here's a video on the same functions in the F-111:

 

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Some things to add:

 

Regarding Tornado variants, the original Cold War IDS and the GR1 are basically the same

Just something to clearify about the terminology: IDS stands for Interdiction Strike and refers to all the strike Tornados, meaning the non-ECR and non-ADV Tornados. GR.X is just how the british designate their strike aircraft, but the british GR.X Tornados are IDS Tornados.

 

Also, British GR1s could carry the ALARM anti-radiation missile, while Italian and German ones could not.

Indeed, they carry the HARM instead, as you mentioned later.

 

Finally, both countermeasure/ECM pods and the anti-runway cluster munition used by British and German/Italian Tornadoes were a bit different, but I couldn't tell you how.

Here's how the German(/Italian?) anti runway dispenser looked like in action. It was made for low level delivery, just like the british JP-233:

 

 

They all got targeting pods (although not that depends on the operator), LGBs, JDAM and Storm Shadow

No Storm Shadow for the German Tornado. They use KEPD Taurus instead, which is a very similar weapon but different development.

 

a) the British ones carry the Brimstone missile, while Italian ones a similar precision strike role use the SDB (not sure about German jets)

German Tornados unfortunately neither carry Brimstones nor SDB.

 

b) the British Tornadoes lost the ability to fire the ALARM, while Italian and German ones gained the ability to fire both the HARM and, in case of the Italian ones, the AGM-88E AARGM

Germany is currently procurring the AGM-88E AARGM for their Tornados as well.

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Some things to add:

 

 

Just something to clearify about the terminology: IDS stands for Interdiction Strike and refers to all the strike Tornados, meaning the non-ECR and non-ADV Tornados. GR.X is just how the british designate their strike aircraft, but the british GR.X Tornados are IDS Tornados.

 

 

Indeed, they carry the HARM instead, as you mentioned later.

 

 

Here's how the German(/Italian?) anti runway dispenser looked like in action. It was made for low level delivery, just like the british JP-233:

 

 

 

No Storm Shadow for the German Tornado. They use KEPD Taurus instead, which is a very similar weapon but different development.

 

 

German Tornados unfortunately neither carry Brimstones nor SDB.

 

 

Germany is currently procurring the AGM-88E AARGM for their Tornados as well.

 

 

 

Nice Information. Can u please add this video to the video thread and do you have some more weapon information videos on the tornados capabilities?

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do you have some more weapon information videos on the tornados capabilities?

The RAF video I linked in the other thread shows some great footage of dumb bomb delivery, especially with loft/toss delivery. Most of my other video sources are in German, like this one on the Taurus cruise missile:

 

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I see three topics about with Tornado Did I miss something and is it official that the Heatblur will develop the aircraft?

 

I hope this is true, but I do not want to have false hopes and be disappointed

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Tornado ECR, it would be the most interesting to play, the "Wild Weasel" role is very much forgotten in DCS...

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I see three topics about with Tornado Did I miss something and is it official that the Heatblur will develop the aircraft?

 

I hope this is true, but I do not want to have false hopes and be disappointed

Unfortunately not :(

MKev has just started posting in various Tornado threads ;)

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Tornado ECR, it would be the most interesting to play, the "Wild Weasel" role is very much forgotten in DCS...

It would absolutly not be interesting to play the Tornado ECR in DCS, as DCS is missing the required Electronic Warfare simulation to make any real use of the Tornado ECR. If it's just about throwing HARMs around, then you can do that with the normal Tornado IDS just fine.

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Tornado ECR, it would be the most interesting to play, the "Wild Weasel" role is very much forgotten in DCS...

 

 

While it may be interesting at first look, since the EW environment is not simulated at all on DCS, it doesn't make much sense in developing this version.

You can already provide SEAD with F/A-18 and eventually with F-16...

It make much more sense and frankly will be more exciting going for "deep" strikes, at night, low level, full throttle, on TFR...(see, the IDS/GR version).

 

Its almost like wishing for a P3 Orion when there's no sub's in the game.


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You can already provide SEAD with F/A-18 and eventually with F-16...

It make much more sense and frankly will be more exciting going for "deep" strikes, at night, low level, full throttle, on TFR...(see, the IDS/GR version).

Exactly, especially as the IDS/GR can employ HARM and ALARM as well. Many people seem to think that only the ECR can do that, which is wrong.

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Exactly, especially as the IDS/GR can employ HARM and ALARM as well. Many people seem to think that only the ECR can do that, which is wrong.

 

 

Yep. I'm not sure how the German Air Force does it, but in Italy the one wing dedicated to SEAD/EW flies both the ECR and IDS.

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Yep. I'm not sure how the German Air Force does it, but in Italy the one wing dedicated to SEAD/EW flies both the ECR and IDS.

Not really the case here. In the Luftwaffe the SEAD task is exclusive to the Tornado ECR AFAIK. The Navy on the other hand employed HARMs from the IDS variant, as it only flew the IDS.

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Tornado.... are there yet ?

 

 

IF HB decide to develop it for DCS I say your at least 1/2 years out.

More like 2-3 years. At least.

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Hi guys, a lot of conversation here, very nice.

Was off for a couple of weeks, business at the former JaBoG 33... Tornado wing :D

 

So I went through the couple of last pages and have to answer a few questions and correct some things:

 

1. ASSTA 2 was never a thing with the German Air Force. Airbus (had some other name back then) did develop it, but it became a part of ASSTA 3.

In ASSTA 3 however, only the CRPMD (Combine Radar and Projected Map Display - "The round center thing in the back seat") and the radar/map projector in the front seat got replaced bei MFCDs.

The TV/TABs remained (there are still some in the GAF) and get replaced for MFCDs with ASSTA 4.1

There happend other things, but just that you know how the cockpit changed visually.

The old E-scope got changed as well as far as I know.

 

About the MFCDs. They are nice, of course. But actually the old CRPMD had a way better resolution for the GMR (ground mapping radar).

I heard a bunch of back seaters saying that for ground radar usage the new birds are actually waste/rubbish.

 

Remember that for my resume at the end...

 

 

2. About Night-Cap:

first I have to complete the equipment list, it has a Doppler radar for height

 

The Tornado was very much night capable out of the box. More than other birds at that time, with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions being A-6 and/or F-111.

 

NVG was not a thing back then, but I read that the British had field/combat modified jets ('Einsatzsofortbeschaffung' in german) in the early/mid 1990s for their combat operations. Have to check my GR.1 book.

 

 

3. About the British variants:

The GR.1A had NO canons. Both sides were fitted with SLIR (side looking infra red). Same for the GR.4A.

It was the GR.4 that had only one. The standard GR.1 (and GR.1B) had two canons.

 

The GR.1B is a standard GR.1 which is wired for the Sea Eagle. It's really not a different variant.

So Sea Eagle should be thing for DCS GR.1.

 

Integrated FLIR came with the GR.4, LRMTS was a thing with the GR.1 and was very useful.

 

Back in the cold war days, the main problem was to get a height fix, to have your bombs actually hit. Every WSO from pre GPS days tells that.

LRMTS made it way easier to get a good range and height fix on the target, for me big reason for GR.1 over the German IDS.

 

 

4. About the weapons:

The Germans use the IRIS-T but only since about 10-15 years, as the British used ASRAAM on their Tornados later on as well.

Early 2000 and earlier only AIM-9s were a thing, for all nations.

 

MW-1 and JP-233 were mentioned. Which one is better? I dont know.

Essentially, the JP-233 always carried 2 types of submuntion.

MW-1 could be fitted with single types but also different types at the same time.

I heard that the MW-1 had more punch, but it were German pilots who said that...

 

In the early 90s the British used the JP233 for runway denial in Iraq, it worked, but it was only useful for a couple of days.

Iraqi airfields were very huge/wide and those mines which were dispensed were not very useful.

I heard the would have liked to be able to use the MW-1 and not use mines but instead more denial bomblets.

 

What really stands out for me personally is ALARM, which to my knowledge was scrapped with the introduction of the GR.4.

This ARM is pretty versatile (more than other ARMs) and could be loaded to complement other loads. (On the stubs for example)

For me it is kind of a must-have. A 2-ship flight could cover itself with 4-8 ALARMS in Loiter-Mode and still perform a good strike.

British philosophy was not to have a dedicated SEAD asset, but that the flights could cover themselves and all birds should have the capability.

 

JP-233 was also scrapped with GR.4, Storm Shadow was introduced with GR.4 (British and Saudi).

KEPD Taurus is the German counterpart to Storm Shadow and came with ASSTA 1, as did GPS.

 

 

5. About the ECR:

I think I have to clarify some things about the ECR (and with it IDS). HARMs can be used on both birds (to this day)

As correctly mentioned, they are only used on ECRs in the GAF, but they could use it on IDS birds.

 

The main factor of the ECR is the ELS, that's not a secret. Emitter Locating System.

Apart from that it is actually not as special as widely believed. It does emitter location. We can do emitter locating in DCS already.

The performance is pretty hard classified. Only thing to tell about that, the US thought about buying the ECR for a while, that comment to how good the ELS is.

 

But other than that, it once had IRLS (IIS) [infra red Line scan / Infra-Red Imaging system], thats not so much of a secret and it once had ODIN, a pretty crappy Data link system, only could do ECR -> ECR (no other bird had that)

 

And it has a FLIR. Also more of a toy from what I heard from actual users.

It had the same Jammer as the IDS did, so there is not so much EW magic happening.

 

It is really not that big of a thing. It has no guns. It's a dedicated SEAD/RECON Tornado, I think an early variant is doable. It is nice.

But I think it is not necessary, the other variants can do the same thing except for the emitter location, and we would never get its real performance.

 

A GR.1+GR.1A+GR.1B packet would have the same use. And those birds are pretty similar, a lot more than the two F-14s we get.

Plus SkyShadow was the better Jammer, but still, EW is crap in DCS atm. Just wanted to mention it.

 

 

Resume:

So for you guys, I don't know what you want, but if you love that cold war striker with a fancy A-G radar (for its time), the earlier birds are simply better. I dont know how good the TARDIS (the British replacement for the CRPMD), I think it is pretty cool.

I also think the GR.4 is very capable.

 

But the Tornado was forced into a roll it never was intended for. It did medium altitude CAS and RECON for the last 20 years but the original equipment was not used for that any more. GMR and TFR (Terrain following radar) are not really used any more.

 

I think F-16, F-18 and F-15E will be platforms that can do those things better, apart from carrying 9 Brimstone maybe, or 4 Storm Shadow. But they use less fuel at medium alt. while having better engine performance and agility.

The Tornado really is a brick at 15000ft and above, and I am not talking about dogfight. It has to go 450++ knots and below 10000ft to shine.

 

For me it's a GR.1. It had LGB in the 1990s, ALARM, early equivalent of a TGP (TIALD), a nice A-G radar, Sea Eagle (GR.1B) but also that older stuff and could use it to its full potential. My dad was a german IDS cold war WSO, even they said the British simply had better equipment, except for the SMS (store management system).

 

I would be thankful for a ASSTA 1 or earlier IDS, an Italian one, those have ILS.

But apart from the GR.4 being very fancy, we have a lot of fancy stuff already and they do better. I think we will be disappointed of an ASSTA 3 (or more) IDS or a GR.4 with the other birds around.


Edited by Bananabrai
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