Mirage Radar under rework

[viper2097]

Jojo, I highly appreciate your knowledge, love and dedication to the Mirage.

I also love this awesome aircraft and enjoy operating it.

 

For me, it always seems like that pointing on something instantly moves you to a Razbam fanboi mode and you see me (or everyone else who says something negativ) as a hater.

Maybe you can take a second and think about that.

 

In the end of the day, we both (all) want the same.

A bug-free and as realistic as possible Mirage 2000-C in DCS.

[jojo]

Do you know that for sure? Its radar detection ranges are *exactly* the same as F-15C .

 

Not in my book.

A M-2000C will detect F-15C at 47Nm. (roughly the same for Flanker).

F-15C will detect another F-15C at 63Nm and a M-2000C around 52.

[jojo]

Jojo, I highly appreciate your knowledge, love and dedication to the Mirage.

I also love this awesome aircraft and enjoy operating it.

 

For me, it always seems like that pointing on something instantly moves you to a Razbam fanboi mode and you see me (or everyone else who says something negativ) as a hater.

Maybe you can take a second and think about that.

 

In the end of the day, we both (all) want the same.

A bug-free and as realistic as possible Mirage 2000-C in DCS.

 

You are ranting about IFF processing being too fast.

Tell me how long it should be, according to what source ?

 

M-2000C is the first fighter in DCS where you have to turn on the IFF interrogator and press a switch to perform interrogation with temporary display of the result (10s).

 

FC3 have constant IFF display as soon as radar is on.

 

DCS World doesn't handle yet code management, or Mode 1/ 2/ 3 interrogation, only "Mode 4 like" according to coalition set in Mission Editor.

 

TWS tracking has been corrected, they are refining radar display, bringing new information and closer to the real one.

Anyway you can only TWS at a time, and and you need to go STT to engage.

 

Let them work, will see what it's like.

 

PS: Tomcat is a great fighter, but M-2000C is at least 10 years younger. It does count for avionics development.

[M2K]

During real operations involving mode 4 use, I saw a lot of pilot putting a rubber band on the stick button to activate IFF interrogation permanently (isn't it smart?) And if a little too fast in DCS, IFF antennas are not that directive and do provide a pretty quick response without a wide scan...

 

Also, TWS scan on the RDI is different from many others radar of its generation. Detecting TWS was pretty impossible.

[Lymark]

Does anyone know what the new ^ symbol mean? It shows up occasionally but I can't replicate it.

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Lymark

[jojo]

Does anyone know what the new ^ symbol mean? It shows up occasionally but I can't replicate it.

 

 

It’s a radar contact with negative closure speed = moving away from you.

 

Since RDI is working (mainly) in HFR mode, it can detect and measure closure speed at the same time. It’s like merging RWS and Velocity Search from US radar (modes available in Tomcat to stay in DCS World).

Edited July 17, 2019 by jojo

[myHelljumper]

Wow, nice :).

[Shively]

M-2000C is the first fighter in DCS where you have to turn on the IFF interrogator and press a switch to perform interrogation with temporary display of the result (10s).

 

 

 

angry mig noises

 

Thanks for your contributions otherwise though, really informative!

 

And great work to y'all at RAZBAM on the updates and work on the radar, between this and Zeus' other post from last week it looks very comprehensive and I look forward to some of the still-unresolved facets mentioned in the other thread getting hammered out in the coming weeks. The Mirage will continue to be very interesting to fly and operate with these updates.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Shively
typos, like I hamfisted my keyboard or something

[Elwood]

Hey pilots,

here the first working version of the new radar targets symbology.

Here are mixed targets at different speeds and altitudes.

Most of them around 280kts and 12K feet +/- 2000

 

First screen I'm at 400/17800 then I cut engine and climb to 19200 and almos stall.

 

I actually could take a video... uhmmm but let's wait for feeback from AdA.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Elwood

[ZHeN]

Nice! That explains it

 

So now it can see a slow cold target that's lower at 35nm? Has the performance changed or those targets were B-52 bombers?

[myHelljumper]

That's very nice, thanks for the info :).

 

Will it be available in the next update ?

Edited July 20, 2019 by myHelljumper

[jaguara5]

when will a target be displayed as -v- instead of v?

[jojo]

when will a target be displayed as -v- instead of v?

 

The bar on top or bottom is top or bottom line of the scan (like lines 1 & 4 on 4 lines scan).

So if a contact disappears you know if you have to move the scan zone up or down to get it back.

[myHelljumper]

The bar on top or bottom is top or bottom line of the scan (like lines 1 & 4 on 4 lines scan).

So if a contact disappears you know if you have to move the scan zone up or down to get it back.

 

Thanks for the info jojo, very interesting.

[Elwood]

Nice! That explains it

 

So now it can see a slow cold target that's lower at 35nm? Has the performance changed or those targets were B-52 bombers?

 

 

B52 and others big aircrafts, the radar features and performances are under review.

[myHelljumper]

So this display only works in 4 line mode ?

[Elwood]

The bar on top or bottom is top or bottom line of the scan (like lines 1 & 4 on 4 lines scan).

So if a contact disappears you know if you have to move the scan zone up or down to get it back.

 

 

 

 

Only line 1 and 4. Works only with 4 lines.

[myHelljumper]

Only line 1 and 4. Works only with 4 lines.

 

Thanks, is it ready for next update ?

[Fynek]

Not in my book.

A M-2000C will detect F-15C at 47Nm. (roughly the same for Flanker).

F-15C will detect another F-15C at 63Nm and a M-2000C around 52.

 

There is a specific test of that on youtube, with 6 different contacts of varying sizes and the result is that the Mirage has exactly the same detection range as the simplified F15 radar of FC3 despite both radar being completely different and from different manufacturers.

 

The difference of 1nm that he recorded is because it took him 1-2 seconds to look down and record when the Mirage spotted the aircraft, but basically it feels like "copy/paste" of range detection. Maybe the rest is different or something changed very recently I dont know. Maybe Razbam did not have access to such data initially which could explain why the detection range is identical as FC3's F15.

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Fynek

[jojo]

There is a specific test of that on youtube, with 6 different contacts of varying sizes and the result is that the Mirage has exactly the same detection range as the simplified F15 radar of FC3 despite both radar being completely different and from different manufacturers.

 

The difference of 1nm that he recorded is because it took him 1-2 seconds to look down and record when the Mirage spotted the aircraft, but basically it feels like "copy/paste" of range detection. Maybe the rest is different or something changed very recently I dont know. Maybe Razbam did not have access to such data initially which could explain why the detection range is identical as FC3's F15.

 

 

Both F-15 @ 30 000ft & M0.9.

Radar setting: RWS/ PRF HI

 

First contact 62.5Nm :music_whistling:

 

I read 80Nm+ for the M-2000C on YouTube video: wrong.

M-2000C won't detect anything past 80Nm, even B-52. This is a limitation of HFR mode on the RDI.

 

I have been here since day one, I assumed Razbam would use F-15C FC3 radar code. But Zeus said they had to do it from blank page, and they had their share of bugs in the process (so did ED on the Hornet).

Some of the limitations will be the same because it's based on ED's SDK, but it isn't FC3 code.

[Fri13]

 

Fri13:

I meant to trigger an continous lock warning.

Because it should not be possible to get a permanent smooth and correct tracking without triggering the continous lock warning.

 

Okay.

Yes that is true.

 

I only know that hornet has the simulated radar beam that is moved across horizon and only gets the radar contacts if you are in it and your angle, speed etc meet some criteria.

 

And that should commence pilot to use far more tighter scan patterns to get weapon grade tracking, and use STT to launch any missile on maneuvering target.

 

But we likely don't have the radar beam simulation in missiles, why active seekers are OP as they can find target in their frontal hemisphere right away without STT lock, unlike passive that can do that.

 

And then I don't think we have radar targeting limitations yet simulated. Making far to easy to get and maintain a lock. Or that do we have a radar wave frequency simulated so radar resolution would be limited.

 

All kind things that makes long range missile engagements unreliable, and hence "spamraam" and solo flying is way too effective as in reality you would be forced very often to visual range combat if target maneuvers at all.

[jojo]

why active seekers are OP as they can find target in their frontal hemisphere right away without STT

 

I don't know what do you mean by that. I practiced a lot of engagement Vs AI Fox 3 shooters, and I do get RWR warning when the missile goes pitbull on me "M" on the RWR.

 

But this is kind of off topic.

[jaguara5]

From discord. Symbols explanation.

Also posted in facebook, in relation to the following video

 

 

M2KC new radar symbology

1. There is a fake target at the very base of the radar screen, debug stuff....

2. The targets altitude are currently related to altitude instead of scan lines, this will change.

3. The target should appear and update after each swipe (per scan lines)

4. Scan lines are overlapped, so some double targets must appear.

5. Lost targets needs to be memorised and showed.

It's getting better and better!

And a question : since the scan lines are overlapped, if a target is in the 4 and the 3 line circle, the first conctact (3 line scan) will appear without those arms (Λ) and during the following 4 line scan it will be updated as an _Λ_ ?

Edited July 22, 2019 by jaguara5

[Fri13]

Also, TWS scan on the RDI is different from many others radar of its generation. Detecting TWS was pretty impossible.

 

For that I would be interested to find out more, as far I know, the RWR doesn't care what kind a signal there is, as long the radio frequency has enough energy and operates in the frequency the RWR is programmed to detect.

 

This is the thing why example SPO-15 that has detection capability of 125% of the radar max power, meaning that at maximal power of the radar (the longest range) for detection, the RWR can still detect the radar 25% further before the radar can detect the aircraft in best possible scenario (head-on, clean background, strongest RCS direction etc etc).

 

Of course there are these ideas to try to hide the radar beam to background noise by performing quick frequency hopping between each pulse so the RWR wouldn't get enough energy of similar kind to get the alarm, but it doesn't work so great.

[Fri13]

M2KC new radar symbology

1. There is a fake target at the very base of the radar screen, debug stuff....

2. The targets altitude are currently related to altitude instead of scan lines, this will change.

 

So the target symbol should always be relative to the scanned space center. So if having 4 bar scan that is scanning directly straight to same altitude as the radar is, then the symbol will reflect the altitude difference in bars relative to the radar. So V means the target is one bar above the radar and if it has _ _ at root then it means it is on altitude that was found on last bar.

 

3. The target should appear and update after each swipe (per scan lines)

 

The target should appear after the full scan is completed. So if you have 4 bars, you need to wait that radar has scanned the sky by sweeping it four times. Then it will update the picture.

This is the limitation of TWS that if you are scanning a large space (4-6-8 bars depending aircraft) and you have wide zone (60-90-120 degrees) then it takes long time that the radar is mechanically steered from one side to another, moved up/down and again steered to other end etc. So example with a F/A-18C the 120 degree, 6 bars, it takes 2.15 seconds to move the radar from one side to another, and so on in total of ~13 seconds.

 

In that 13 second time there is no updates to track, there is no update to the picture. And that is unreliable weapon release information as it takes multiple paintings of the target to start get good enough track of it (you need like 3-5 updates to get the data of heading and velocity) so you can predict where the target will be in the next 13 seconds so you can guide a missile at it. If the target maneuvers or changes its speed that it is not in the target prediction gate (that gets smaller and smaller after each update) then you will start over. And your prediction gate for guidance is as good as the target is holding direction and velocity, but if it keeps moving then your gate is as huge as where the target could fly in 13 second period. So if you are targeting a fighter that is flying at 900km/h, then in 13 seconds period the target can be 3.25 kilometers from the last known position. And that can be to ANY direction, so in total your targeting gate is at that moment is 6.5 kilometer area in front and slightly smaller to further away as radar calculates the expected speed change for target to turn around and time to turn around.

 

With a such inaccuracy you can't launch any radar guided missile toward such target as the missile can be flying multiple kilometers wrong direction. And it takes lots of energy to correct the heading.

 

So lets say that you have only three updates of the target, that is already 39 seconds that has passed since first update and third update. In that 39 seconds the target has traveled 9750 meters so almost 10 kilometers. Now you would start to have a smaller prediction gate for targeting that might be around 100x100-500x500 meters box where the target will be in the next 13 seconds when the radar will update the target fourth time. If you launch missile after third update, you are sending missile in that small box area and you are hoping that the target will be there in next 13 seconds. If the target has maneuvered by changing a course by 30 degrees, your missile is way off. So after 13 seconds of flight, your radar receives new update but its targeting gate is required to start again as two updates (the third update and fourt update) with new heading and velocity is not enough for targeting grade information, but you have missile been flying 13 seconds to wrong direction that you need to update to missile a new estimated large space where to fly. It takes again 13 seconds from your radar to get update of the target, calculate the prediction of the new space where target will be and update missile of the new data. If the target didn't change heading and velocity, you might be now down to 1000x1000 meter area. If it did change second time the heading, you are again in the 3.25km diameter area front of its last known heading.

 

So launching a missile or trying to even get launch grade accuracy for STT is waste of time with so huge area to scan. Why going smaller like 20 degree and 2 bars is far faster as you can complete it in a second. But for some targets it can be still too inaccurate as missile needs to hit target or fly 5-7 meters from it to get proximity fuze triggered and blow up. So in one second a 900km/h target moves 250 meters, It is way gone if you get update just once a second and it is maneuvering constantly (barrel roll, alternating pitch change etc) or even worse it does sudden quick turn (supermaneuverability) that throws predictions totally off.

 

Why even if you have best of the best TWS, you prefer STT as you have constant realtime update where the target is. There is no escaping, the prediction point is still there but it stays minimal and the missile can be guided far closer to the end game than waiting updates with second or multiple second delay.

 

But if your target is a large bomber, flying 750km/H (208m/s) that totally can't maneuver at high altitude or at those speeds, you can just keep TWS going as you will have very accurate targeting gate predicted for tens of meters with 1-2 second delay and even with 13 seconds you have few hundred meters.

 

4. Scan lines are overlapped, so some double targets must appear.

 

That I wouldn't understand to happen as the radar should simply cancel the false out, as it likely doesn't have enough resolution to even detect is there a second object in the proximity of the one detection. Why if you fly in close-formation you can approach the radar without it seeing that there is multiple objects near each others. IIRC that was question of the frequency and pulse repetition time that how small the resolution is, as it can be from 20-30 meters to 500 meters and inside that all objects are counted as one, and why you want to have a wingman perform a separation so you get different angle to space and that way possibility separate the objects in closer formation.

 

5. Lost targets needs to be memorised and showed.

 

Is there own kind symbol for that? Or is that the opaque diamond inside the V?

 

It's getting better and better!

And a question : since the scan lines are overlapped, if a target is in the 4 and the 3 line circle, the first conctact (3 line scan) will appear without those arms (Λ) and during the following 4 line scan it will be updated as an _Λ_ ?