Sinking like a rock on downwind

[9echo]

Hi All,

 

I am practising Case I landings, and whilst I am able to get it onto the boat, I am pretty sure my procedures (and thus landings) are crap! I have attached a trackfile where I tried to reproduce - with no luck- an issue I had initially (and reported in the Bugs sesction). However, I encountered an issue I most often have and that is due to my poor skills and lack of training. I turn onto the downwing leg, whilst extending flaps and landing gears and establish myself on downwind, trimming my plane to on-speed AoA (or so I think?). However, my plane starts to sink like it's Titanic!:helpsmilie: I have to maintain quite a lot of speed (150-160 kts which makes it hard to trim to on-speed AoA) just to stay on my altitude and descend slowly down to 600ft before turning onto final approach. Bear with me on the track, I bolted twice before I managed to put her onto the boat. But the issue I describe I encountered on the last lap around 29 minutes or so into the flight. Would anyone mind having a look and help me fix all the things I (presumably) do wrong?

 

Sorry about not having headtracking (which obviously does not help things), it's on the to-get list (getting VR at some point).

Case I Landing.trk

Edited July 8, 2019 by BIGNEWY
1.1 profanity

[aceofspades9963]

What's your weight ? Be below 33000lb gross weight for a more manageable carrier approach and landing.

[9echo]

Hi Ace,

 

Thanks for your reply! I took off with 44k lbs TOW, did three laps with minimum MAX power and very short distance from the boat, so I would say I did not burn enough to end up under 33k lbs total weight when trying to land. I did not check this (I guess this is one of my procedural errors), so I will check that alter again. Would you recommend to dump fuel to get under 33k?

[Legendofdino]

Pull up the checklist page on a ddi and throw the dump switch to get rid of fuel til your under the 33k max trap weight. One of the legacy hornet's biggest weakness is it's limited take home weight of ordinance. Therefore if youre trying to keep things realistic in terms of trapping back on the boat with whatever you didn't expend in a mission you'll have to sacrifice some of the fuel.

 

What you've described in terms of your on speed flying definitely sounds like you're jet is heavy and requiring more thrust to keep lift

[9echo]

Hi Legend,

 

Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated! Same to you Ace.

 

Sounds like I am for sure doing it wrong re landing weight. Are there any charts available to look at such weight, NATOPS maybe?

[rome57]

This is opposite of my problem. I am all setup up and the nose just keeps rising. I have been working on this for weeks, and still the same problem...

[aceofspades9963]

Pull up the checklist page on a ddi and throw the dump switch to get rid of fuel til your under the 33k max trap weight. One of the legacy hornet's biggest weakness is it's limited take home weight of ordinance. Therefore if youre trying to keep things realistic in terms of trapping back on the boat with whatever you didn't expend in a mission you'll have to sacrifice some of the fuel.

 

What you've described in terms of your on speed flying definitely sounds like you're jet is heavy and requiring more thrust to keep lift

 

Exactly this^^

 

Natops should have approach speeds for every possible configuration . To simplify it though just fly on speed aoa. Its quick and easy to get the a/c weight via the checklist. I knew you were too heavy when you said 150-160kts. You will be 120-140 if you are good for weight. Have fun!

 

Cheers

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Just a minor correction: 33k lbs is the unrestricted weight. Most of the time those restrictions won't apply, so max trap is 34k lbs in most cases.

[9echo]

Again, thanks everyone for all the feedback and inputs, please do know that I truly appreciate it all, I really do! Can’t wait to improve the skills on this beauty, as much as it is a beast sometimes (especially without headtracking, but that’s a different chapter...).

[Moafuleum]

If you try the Case 1 Instant action mission, the a/c is already in a proper condition in terms of weight. Try and see if it works better for you

[Nosferatuwhisky 1-1]

This is opposite of my problem. I am all setup up and the nose just keeps rising. I have been working on this for weeks, and still the same problem...

 

Sounds like you're dropping full flaps at too high an airspeed.

[Harker]

This is opposite of my problem. I am all setup up and the nose just keeps rising. I have been working on this for weeks, and still the same problem...

Drop gear and flaps at 250 knots, during the break. If you notice that you're flying up, counter it with the stick. Once you more or less stabilize at 800 ft AGL downwind, start trimming for 8.1 AOA while dropping to 600ft AGL for the downwind leg.

If you don't have enough time for all this, initiate your break further away from the carrier. I started at 1.5nm and now do it around 0.7-0.8nm.

If you balloon up a whole lot, you're not slowing down enough during the break, remember, G=1% of airspeed.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Harker

[Harker]

;3973920']Sounds like you're dropping full flaps at too high an airspeed.

You're supposed to drop flaps at 250, that's the max speed they'll deploy anyway. If you balloon up, you use the stick to counter it. It's more likely that he doesn't slow down enough during the break.

[Moafuleum]

If you balloon up a whole lot, you're not slowing down enough during the break, remember, G=1% of airspeed.

 

You can use the speedbrake as well

[Harker]

You can use the speedbrake as well

You should use the speedbrake. Goes without saying (but I should have said it anyway). I don't think you can slow down in time otherwise.

[Chuck_Henry]

You should use the speedbrake. Goes without saying (but I should have said it anyway). I don't think you can slow down in time otherwise.

 

I distinctly remember Jello on the Fighter Pilot Podcast said no self-respecting fighter pilot uses the speed brake in the break. For a long time, I managed to fly mine without using it, although I'd hit 250 with only 30-40 degrees of the break turn to go instead of the 90 that you're supposed to have.

 

That said, a couple of our resident Hornet pilots have said to use it, and it's much easier to slow down from anything above 350 and still get the gear down by wings-level on downwind. I now use the speed brake by default.

[G B]

I distinctly remember Jello on the Fighter Pilot Podcast said no self-respecting fighter pilot uses the speed brake in the break. For a long time, I managed to fly mine without using it, although I'd hit 250 with only 30-40 degrees of the break turn to go instead of the 90 that you're supposed to have.

 

That said, a couple of our resident Hornet pilots have said to use it, and it's much easier to slow down from anything above 350 and still get the gear down by wings-level on downwind. I now use the speed brake by default.

 

It wasn’t Jello. It was in Mover’s DCS video. And yes, you’re right, use the speedbrake. That’s normal. Plenty of self-respecting guys use it.

[Chuck_Henry]

It wasn’t Jello. It was in Mover’s DCS video.

 

Ah, that would explain it. The Air Force overhead break is pretty different from the carrier break.

[JUICE-AWG]

Also, are you paying attention to your IAS? Break at 1.0 to 1.5 off BRC overhead, throttle back, pull G at 1% of airspeed and match G through the turn as much as possible, at 250kts drop gear, at 200, drop half flaps, and 175 drop to full flaps while descending to 600 for abeam...use throttle to keep you at 135-140 and depending on weight transition to on-speed AoA at the 45 turn to the groove. If your winds and carrier speed are in the correct parameters, I recommend turning to the groove no later than 3 seconds after abeam. Oh, and what they said about weight...don't try to go directly into the overhead to trap right after taking off full fuel...defuel to 45% with single bag or 30% with dual bags and enter the break at 33,000 gw or less. Cheers!

 

 

I see you have the warthog, as do I and others with the same HOTAS I have have had problems with the throttle idle position (won't slow down)...here's the settings I use and it works great in the break and downwind without speedbrake.

 

 

Warthog Throttle Curves

 

 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1799848350

Edited July 11, 2019 by =JUICE=
Additional Info

[9echo]

I violated Forum Rule 1.16, so my previous post got deleted. Apologies for that, mods! Won't happen again. I'll try to repeat what I wrote, in case it may help others in training like myself.

 

Re those who experience a nose pitch up in the pattern:

I've been able to refine my lap around the boat quite smooth (now just gotta get better at vertical velocity control when turning base leg). I turn crosswind at 350 knots 800' and deploy speedbrake immediately after initiating the turn. I sustain roughly 1% G through the turn, and deploy full flaps and gears down at the same time - the negative vertical velocity due to the bank helps to offset the pitch you experience as an issue when deploying flaps and gears at 25 knots. It also improves the pattern management; you're almost fully configured when going wings level on downwind, and can focus on the trim to establish yourself on on-speed AoA and control your descent down to 600' whilst at the same time taking a peek at the lady to your left. It just improves the time management in the pattern immensely to configure all but the trim on the first turn so that you can focus on energy management and the angles once you find yourself abeam the ship. It's probably not the 'right' way of doing it, but I'm sure it's not far off.

Edited July 10, 2019 by 9echo