SA-5 : Any updates?

[MYSE1234]

ED seems to think otherwise.. 
 

Edited August 6, 2021 by MYSE1234

[Northstar98]

On 8/6/2021 at 10:40 AM, Arikaj said:

It is wrongly named. It will be used with SA10. It is already reported, saw it somewhere. Also I am pretty sure I saw pics with Tall King being developed.

 

EDIT: found it: https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/278213-tin-shield-radar-incorrectly-named-as-sa-5-search-radar/

I've amended this in the wishlist section (though didn't get much traction).

But the main point is that the Tin Shield absolutely isn't associated with the SA-5 and I can find exactly nothing to suggest that it is, especially when the radar's instrumented range is 60% of the maximum engagement range of the 5V28 missile.

The Tin Shield, from what I can find, is exclusively associated with the S-300/SA-10, and given we have an S-300PS [SA-10b Grumble], the Tin Shield variant that is most appropriate would be the 5N59S [Tin Shield B] AFAIK.

Here's the thread in question, where I go into more detail:

The TL:DR of which is as follows:

The appropriate search/acquisition radar for the SA-5 is the 5N84A 'Oborona-14' [Tall King C] paired up with a PRV-17 [Odd Group] or PRV-13 [Odd Pair] and an NRZ-14/73E6/1L22-1 for IFF.

That or possibly the P-35/P-35M/P-37 "Saturn" [NATO: "Bar Lock"/"Bar Lock B"] paired up with a PRV-11 [Side Net] or a PRV-16 [Thin Skin B], though the former (5N84A + PRV-17/13) seems much more common, with the latter being more of an EWR station/IADS deal.

Funny thing is, we have both the P-37 and the PRV-11, but apart from being animated, they're completely non-functional eye candy that automatically spawn at numerous airfields in the Caucasus map, that mission editors have no control over, in any respect. They are however, pretty high-quality models; there not on par with the new SA-6 (which, apart from graphical damage model is perfection IMO), but much better than a fair few other RADARs.

Both sets would make for fantastic GCI/EW radars and alongside a 5Ya61/62/63 "Cycloid" microwave relay would be brilliant for the IADS improvements/module supposedly in development. As of right now we only have the 1L13 and 55G6 - both seriously and incredibly outdated graphically, and being more modern RADARs that are less appropriate for the predominantly legacy REDFOR SAMs (though they are more appropriate for the S-300PS/SA-10b that we have).

Personally, I see this as ED just implementing the bare minimum of battery components for SAM systems, much like the S-75M/SA-2d, where we only got a launcher, missile and FCR; no search/acquisition RADAR (which would be the P-12 'Yenisei' [Spoon Rest A] (or possibly the P-18 later on) + PRV-11 [Side Net]), no operator or electrical cabins (typically derived from the ubiquitous OdAZ-828 semi-trailer - the SA-2 uses it for the UNK cabin of the FCR, and the SA-5 uses it as a FCC, LCC and BCC), no generators (the 5E93 would be suitable for the SA-2, SA-3 and SA-5), no IFF systems (the 1L22 "Parol" is also pretty ubiquitous) etc. We did get a PR-11 transloader teased (picture 1, picture 2) in this newsletter but nothing has been released in 3 years, there is also an RD-75 "Amazonka" rangefinding RADAR present in the files but also hasn't been released).

On 8/6/2021 at 11:47 AM, MYSE1234 said:

ED seems to think otherwise..

[snip]

And they are absolutely wrong on this one.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting

[BIGNEWY]

Hi,

the Tin Shield is just a stand in until we can create the correct SA-5 associated search radars, it will take time. 

 

thanks

[Eihort]

Better than nothing I suppose, but since the high detail Kuz model, getting just a *little* tired of taking literal *years* between teases and release.

[Northstar98]

On 8/7/2021 at 2:00 AM, Eihort said:

Better than nothing I suppose, but since the high detail Kuz model, getting just a *little* tired of taking literal *years* between teases and release.

Yeah, but the Tin Shield instrumented range is only 60% of the maximum engagement range of the 5V28 missile, it's like using the AN/APG-159 of the F-5E-3 to provide target acquisition for an AIM-120C.

On 8/6/2021 at 4:23 PM, BIGNEWY said:

the Tin Shield is just a stand in until we can create the correct SA-5 associated search radars, it will take time.

Awesome!

Though the better stand-in would be to implement the existing P-37 and PRV-11 present in DCS (which for nearly a decade have just been non-functional eye-candy, that spawns automatically at numerous airfields on the Caucasus map, they both have pretty decent models and are animated).

Though can we assume that the 5N84A + PRV-13/PRV-17 will also come?

In any case, both would make for brilliant EW/GCI RADARs and alongside an appropriate radio link (5Ya61/62/63 "Cycloid") would be perfect for the IADS improvements supposedly in development.

The only other thing I'll mention is the same kinda goes for the SA-2, the more associated radar for that was the P-12NA "Yenisei" [Spoon Rest C] (or other P-12 variants, later the P-18, which was a development of the P-12). Though at least here the P-19 makes more sense as a stand-in, in that according to this it was an alternative search radar, and it certainly has appropriate specs, unlike the Tin Shield. There is also an RD-75 present in the files which acts as a secondary rangefinding radar for it.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Northstar98
grammar

[Northstar98]

Quote

In the next Open Beta update, look out for the new S-200 (SA-5) Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) system that was first fielded in the 1960s.

Finally!

Quote

We have modelled the Syrian Army SA-5 system, which uses the STU-68U search radar, giving it a maximum range of 150km. We plan to develop another long-range SA-5 search radar soon.

Okay, so presumably we're getting a Syrian S-200VE 'Vega-E' [SA-5b Gammon], which is the export version of the S-200V 'Vega'. Besides the designations for the system, missile and acquisition radar, I'm not sure what the practical differences are.

But seriously guys, the SA-5, including Syrian ones, do not use the Tin Shield, they pretty much all use the P-14 (more specifically the 5N84A/AE 'Oborona-14' [Tall King C], though I've also seen it referred to as the P-14F).

The Tin Shield is associated with the S-300 system, and the Big Bird was its direct successor. I've only ever seen the Tin Shield as a 3D acquisition RADAR for the S-300 or as a general purpose EWR.

Luckily, allegedly, there is another radar in development, which should be the radar above.

As mentioned above and in the wishlist thread I made, this is a 2D radar and as such needs to be paired with a height-finding radar such as the PRV-13 [Odd Pair] or PRV-17 [Odd Group]. The radar also doesn't have an IFF interrogator built-in, so, it's paired with either the NRZ-14 (dedicated IFF interrogator for the P-14 series, using the Silicon-2 IFF system) or the newer, more ubiquiotous 1L22/73E6 'Parol', using the eponymous Parol IFF system).

As for the Syrian SA-5s, I had a look on Google Earth and so far found 4 of the 5 supposedly active S-200 sites, and, all but 1 of them has a P-14 RADAR co-located (or at the very least located very close), specifically a 5N84AE [Tall King C]. At Syrian sites, the PRV-13 seems to be commonly utilised as the height-finder (both at S-200 sites, and at EWR sites), though poor resolution of satellite imagery can make it difficult to identify the PRV-13 from the PRV-17.

The only site that doesn't (though it might be that I just haven't found it yet) is co-located with a Russian S-400 site, with its radars present (such as the 96L6, which has a sufficient range). EDIT: this site historically had a 5N84AE and is clear as day in satellite imagery from 2010, looks to have been removed.

• SA-5 site near Homs, with a 5N84AE.
• SA-5 site 6.5 nautical miles north of Khalkhalah airbase (159th air defence regiment), with a 5N84AE.
• SA-5 site near Al-Dumayr, this one doesn't have an acquisition radar located on site, however, there is an EWR site 3.5 nautical miles to the east-north-east, which includes a 5N84AE (as well as 2 P-80s and several height-finders (look to be PRV-13s)).
• SA-5 site north of Masyaf (western, eastern), I can only find an associated height-finder (looks to be a PRV-17), but there is a Russian S-400 system present, with numerous RADARs also present (northern, southern). EDIT: The 5N84AE at this site at least was here (it's clearly visible in 2010 satellite imagery in Google Earth Pro), but since seems to have been removed?

Syria does operate at least one Tin Shield, but it's further away from the nearest SA-5 (Al-Dumayr, which has a P-14 much closer), it's located at Damascus international airport and it replaced a JY-27 radar that was destroyed in an IDF airstrike. I'm unsure if there are any others. In any case the JY-27 was being used as a general purpose EWR, and I'm pretty sure this Tin Shield is too (in all likelihood they're networked together into an IADS).

EDIT: Found a second Tin Shield, it's located at an EWR site (along with 2 P-80s and a height finder (PRV-13?)), here, it's miles away from the nearest SA-5 site (Al-Dumayr).

But the point remains - the S-200 is associated with the P-14, specifically the 5N84A/5N84AE (the latter being an export version), and not any version of the Tin Shield - that RADAR is associated with the SA-10 (though is also utilised as a generic EWR).

Edited November 20, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting, grammar

[nighthawk2174]

@BIGNEWY^ see above, as such shouldn't it be renamed in game to not list it as an SA5 specific search radar?

Edited September 10, 2021 by nighthawk2174

[Northstar98]

On 9/11/2021 at 12:28 AM, nighthawk2174 said:

@BIGNEWY^ see above, as such shouldn't it be renamed in game to not list it as an SA5 specific search radar?

Yes, and it would be more appropriate to listed it as an SA-10 specific search RADAR, exactly like the Big Bird (which is the Tin Shield's direct successor) as that's the system it's actually associated with.

So far I've only ever seen the Tin Shield be associated with the SA-10 or used as an EWR. It doesn't really make sense to use it as an acquisition RADAR for the SA-5, seeing as the SA-5 variant we're getting has a maximum engagement range of 240km, but the Tin Shield we have only has a maximum instrumented range of 150km.

As for our SA-10, we have the S-300PS [Sa-10b Grumble], and AFAIK the Tin Shield most applicable to that is the 5N59S [Tin Shield B].

Edited January 26, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting - mostly

[nighthawk2174]

Just now, Northstar98 said:

 

Yes, and it should be listed as an SA-10 specific search RADAR, as that's the system it's actually associated with (with the 5N64S ["Big Bird"] superseding it).

 

So far I've only ever seen the Tin Shield be associated with the SA-10 or used as an EWR. It doesn't really make sense to use it as an acquisition RADAR for the SA-5, seeing as the SA-5 variant we're getting has a maximum engagement range of 240km, but the Tin Shield has a maximum instrumented range of 150km.

 

As for our SA-10, we have the S-300PS [Sa-10b "Grumble"], and AFAIK the Tin Shield most applicable to that is the 5N59S ["Tin Shield B"].

Yes as far as i'm aware the tin shield is the most applicable SR for the current S300 version we have in game.  Surprised it took as long as it did to add it (S300 has been in DCS from the start).

[twistking]

@Northstar98 @BIGNEWY
Wouldn't it make sense to allow every search radar for every Sam Type? I would assume that targeting radars need to be tightly integrated with the system, but search radars should be relatively interchangeable, shouldn't they?

 

Maybe only allow certain specific search radars to be working within the sam group and then working at full potential, but maybe make a option/special function for a sam group without it's own search radar to receive EWR information from any other radar equipped unit. Maybe a slight nerf could be applied to the targeting radar locking to the provided target info to simulate a search radar not being properly integrated on a technical level, or to simulate communication error when the search radar is not on site.

 

My educated guess would be that in reality a Sam Site could receive EWR/Search Info from any friendly radar by telephone line or even simpler means of communication.

Edited September 11, 2021 by twistking

[Northstar98]

On 9/11/2021 at 4:00 PM, twistking said:

@Northstar98 @BIGNEWY
Wouldn't it make sense to allow every search radar for every Sam Type? I would assume that targeting radars need to be tightly integrated with the system, but search radars should be relatively interchangeable, shouldn't they?

I'm not sure why x SAM systems specifically use y search radar, that's just what they do.

It might be that certain systems were designed to utilise said radar and whatever engagement control station is wired up to receive and display data from a specific RADAR or RADARs.

I'm by no means an expert at all, I don't know how it all works. Though it shouldn't be too difficult to use a more crude method of slaving whatever FCR is being used.

Though personally, I'd like as many accurate battery components as possible, referencing real world SAM sites, and in the case of the SA-5 (including Syrian ones), the search radar present is the 5N84A (or rather the export 5N84AE) which is a transportable variant of the P-14. This radar is 2D only so it's paired up with a suitable height-finding radar, most commonly the PRV-17 or 13, and as it doesn't have integrated IFF (AFAIK) a seperate  IFF system too (like the 1L22 "Parol" - which is pretty ubiquitous).

On 9/11/2021 at 4:00 PM, twistking said:

Maybe only allow certain specific search radars to be working within the sam group and then working at full potential, but maybe make a option/special function for a sam group without it's own search radar to receive EWR information from any other radar equipped unit.

There are SAM systems that have multiple different acquisition radars (usually optimised to do certain things), but what your describing is an IADS or Integrated Air Defence System, where you have a network of EWRs and air defences linked together, though typically they will still have a search radar located on site for redundancy.

On 9/11/2021 at 4:00 PM, twistking said:

My educated guess would be that in reality a Sam Site could receive EWR/Search Info from any friendly radar by telephone line or even simpler means of communication.

And you're right, IADS do use data-links, if you look at this post and scroll to the bottom of it, there's a diagram of a former Czechoslovak SA-5 site at Dobříš (with the spoiler translating the annotations); just south of where the PRV-17 was located was a 5Ya63 "Cycloid" antenna post, which is a microwave link to other air defence sites, though I'm fairly sure there was a wired data-link too, allowing the site to operate as part of a networked system.

The 5Ya61/62/63 (only difference being the number of antennae on the post) would be a great unit to have if/when we get IADS functionality, allowing us to disable (at least the wirleless portion) of the data-link, severing the IADS network.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Northstar98
grammar

[Brockn]

On 8/4/2020 at 6:15 AM, Kiptanoi said:

Or dont have it at all

ED just want to release modul and make money.....

They are not ready with F/A-18, and most important not ready with F-16, and going to put energy to release a A-10C II.....

 

And how is the work on VR going for them.... They say they will put energy into that.....

But 4 years later nothing has happend....

That didn't age.

[Eihort]

The 4/26/19 newsletter about developing an IADS didn't age well either. They must have had little/nothing at all done in house on it by August 2020, and didn't plan on doing so for at least the next two years or more to consider handing it off to another company, so all that waiting was in vain.

 

The good news is that I've seen the above behavior exhibited by the SA-5 so far and it's one nasty [REDACTED]. I'm loving trying to fight it. Just still disappointed we don't have an appropriately ranged search radar to pair it with.

[Eihort]

It's all dependent on the command center and what types of radars they were meant to interface with and receive data (tracks) from and then distribute that information out from. If you play the SAM SIMULATOR game it's a bit more intuitive how it's supposed to work. A lot of these SAM systems have a switch to just forcefully "accept" the targeting info from the IADS network link that the HQ is sending them. Remember these all have telecommunication/network/data standards spanning decades and formats/speeds (wireless microwave, cable, telephone), so it's hardly "plug-n-play".