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[NO BUG] HARM hitting unit but doing no damage


DeathAngel1

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Well, the HARM does have a very small warhead so we should look at whether this is a bug or intended. I agree they do very little damage as of now.
Considering that radar installations etc aren't armored and usually quite delicate, it shouldn't take more than small explosion to knock them out.

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I did some testing of this on various radar units.

Tested various altitudes and speeds so the HARMs had both high and low energies, and came in at both high and low angles.

Out of 20 tests it was effective every time.

 

It is much less powerful than before, but seems to still be effective (just less exciting).

I found that around half the time it destroys the unit, sometimes not instantly but the unit explodes after a while.

The rest of the time it damages the units enough that they stop functioning, even though they are still alive, a "mission kill".

 

This was on clear flat ground.

I think it fails sometimes in practice when there are hills and the HARM comes in at a low angle, hitting the ground or trees before it gets to the target.

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The rest of the time it damages the units enough that they stop functioning, even though they are still alive, a "mission kill".

 

Does DCS actually simulate mission kill for ground units (i.e. the vehicle is not destroyed and maybe still maneuvers, but can't track/launch)? For well armored vehicles, this seems like the most likely result given the HARMs warhead/purpose, but I wasn't sure this was actually modeled.

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Does DCS actually simulate mission kill for ground units (i.e. the vehicle is not destroyed and maybe still maneuvers, but can't track/launch)? For well armored vehicles, this seems like the most likely result given the HARMs warhead/purpose, but I wasn't sure this was actually modeled.

Not in my experience. I've only seen ground vehicles be either fully operational, even with 5% health, or completely destroyed once their health hits 0%. Only aircraft and some ships have more detailed damage models.

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I guess it would make a lot more sense if there was subsystem damage implemented on ground vehicles, which AFAIK there isn't yet.

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It might only be modelled for units with a radar?

When they get damaged (maybe below 50%?) the radar antenna stops spinning and they just sit there doing nothing.

They also disappear off the RWR.

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Well, the HARM does have a very small warhead so we should look at whether this is a bug or intended. I agree they do very little damage as of now.

 

 

It's six times (66kg) the AGM-122's (11kg) still which is even 9kg more than a 'rick (57kg) has. Should do some significant kaboom.

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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It might only be modelled for units with a radar?

When they get damaged (maybe below 50%?) the radar antenna stops spinning and they just sit there doing nothing.

They also disappear off the RWR.

Huh, you're right. I saw your comment and just tested it. If that's indeed on purpose, then I have no issues, it's still a mission kill. Would make mission scripting a tad more complex though.

I noticed that in the cases that the HARM fails to completely kill the target, it detonates slightly before touching it, like there's a proximity fuse at play.

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[NO BUG] HARM hitting unit but doing no damage

 

Version: 2.5.5.33552

 

This is an intermittent issue as you can see from the track - out of four HARMs, at least two (maybe three) have the bug. Quite simply, sometimes the HARMs are hitting the unit they were fired at (a Roland EWR in this case), but they are doing no damage to the unit at all. Track here: https://gofile.io/?c=ojJIyi

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Hi backspace340

 

as discussed on discord I think your track replay is corrupted.

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Hi backspace340

 

as discussed on discord I think your track replay is corrupted.

 

Yep, I think so, I've tried a repair and that hasn't helped. Don't run any mods and I've deleted everything in the tracks folder to see if that would help, but nothing's worked, every time I try to watch a track after a mission, or save one, it just plays/saves that F-14 mission. A bit stuck... Will try and give you what you need to see it without a track. I've attached a simple mission to test it, and I filmed the test.

 

I think one thing that affects this is the altitude that you launch the HARMs from, I tried first from 44kft, and all the HARMs destroyed the target. I then dropped down to a much lower altitude, and none of them destroyed the target (although at least two did detonate on the target). If you play the mission a few times and fire one HARM at each search radar, you should see the same thing where a HARM hits the target, detonates, but doesn't do any damage.

 

Some timestamps:

00:58 - four HARMs launched from high alt (44kft) all kill their targets

3:30 - four HARMs launched from low alt (8kft) start hitting their targets (first one's a slight miss)

3:38 - a HARM hits but does no damage

3:41 - another HARM hits but does no damage

HARMs.miz

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The track is of an F-14, please submit of a Hornet with the issue.

 

Thought I should add some findings too, track included. Couple spawns with a Hornet, infinite weapons turned on to make life easy.

 

HARMs seem to behave a bit like how the AGM-45 Shrike was described on Wikipedia:

"lack of punch in the warhead made it difficult for bomb damage assessment, as well as inflicting any damage to the Fan Song Radar vans beyond a shattered radar dish, an easy item to replace or repair."

 

I mean this in the sense that I do not have much problems with large radars like the EWRs, SA-11 search radar and the older style tracking radars - all are either large units or have the dish on top of the vehicle. These almost always KIA or at least a technical kill as the unit is damaged enough to stop the dish rotating.

 

I do have issues with reliable kills on more modern units like the SA-11 launchers (whose radar is at the front) or similarly like the SA-15 or SA-19. In my track you can see some kills on launcher and a couple fails. The HARM seems to be slightly too high at the end of the terminal phase, detonating above the target instead of hitting it and then detonating (like a maverick).

 

That sort of result is what we see alot in our MP sessions - those tracks too long to be worth uploading.

 

Edit: I would also like to add that when I use the HARMDISPLAY shortcut I get no targets, but if I go through stores and choose the HARM it all works.

That's also in my track.

HARMs.trk


Edited by Tiburtius
Additional note on HARMDISPLAY shortcut.

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I add my experience on the subject. After many tests, 85% of the time the damage does not destroy the target, it only deactivates its radar but 0% damage on the unit. I add track ...

 

* TRACK, two bateries of sa11, WP1, One SA-6 WP2, 4 HARM released, 3 direct hit, (two SA-11 and SA-6 radar), 1 fail, ok may be normal, but ... 3 hits all 0% damage, this is not normal, :noexpression:

 

Track: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CSzjiOZIPbYcpeQw4c4Cas6NhixLD6GL/view?usp=sharing


Edited by Werewolf_fs
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I add my experience on the subject. After many tests, 85% of the time the damage does not destroy the target, it only deactivates its radar but 0% damage on the unit. I add track ...

 

 

The HARM warhead consists of many fragmenting cubes are that designed to destroy antennas, not destroy the vehicle. Enough impacts would probably destroy the vehicle, but that is not what the warhead is designed to do. Basically, it's not an anti-vehicle weapon, it's an anti-antenna warhead.

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Yes, but still though these vehicles (SA6,SA11,S19 for example) are unarmored on the top where the missiles should/are detonating. For the SA6 and Sa19 the antennas are exposed and in the sa11 only has a thin covering over it.... not to mention the exposed missiles on the sa11. I'd imagine the HARM's warhead would effectively kill the vehicle rendering it unusable. Maybe not blow it up but render it "dead", a solution to consider is maybe instead of causing it to blow up just have it so smoke starts poring out of it?


Edited by nighthawk2174
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