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A-10c Windcorection (Urgent issue).


FuzzBallHall

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HI all A-10c pilots out there.

 

Need help to solve this issue.

Which spreadsheet is 100% accurate?

 

Bunyap Sims or Grim Reapers?

 

In Bunyap's spreadsheet, (Direction (to)

you put in a' 0 before 71 (071).

 

In Grim Reapers, that does not work, only

put in (71) OK.

 

So! it gives me 2 different values.

 

BestRegards: Peter (Fuzzball) Wassmuth.

 

Spreadsheets:

Bunyap Sims:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rTUQqJYqq3yHsXjxUMA6MVvxgfI8nudMf8Nw95V2Mqk/edit#gid=0

 

Grim Reapers:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zivmlOQNHQ2JRoTSMcxsqyqFOVvYsoEmtiqISWNhQJk/edit#gid=0

 

Bunyap Sims:

LASTE CDU Wind Correction:

http://imgur.com/xmto9ab

 

Grim Reapers:

A-10C Wind Corection:

http://imgur.com/ksHY14u

01_Bunyip.thumb.jpg.a0a147f853281926ae7a479fb1f6abe1.jpg

02_Grim.thumb.jpg.1af3dc6987a641212ff41941505fdcef.jpg


Edited by FuzzBallHall
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I ve never used those spreadsheets but you can just use the laste page to find the current wind direction and speed while flying. For example switch cdu to laste, show it on the mfcd, and take notes after you take off while climbing.

 

Lastly, you really dont need to enter wind data manually. IFFCC builds its own wind tables while you are flying, and its dead accurate. Manual entry wont improve it.


Edited by kylekatarn720
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You dont need to do anything mate, after you take off, as you fly, IFFCC system constantly watches for wind direction-speed and builds its own wind table automatically.

 

If you are asking about how to see the wind direction and speed as you fly, you need to enter the system page of the cdu then LASTE then wind. It should show the wind speed, direction and weather temperature on the upper section of the screen. You can read more about it on 205. page of the a10c flight manual which is located in your dcs directory, mods/aircraft/a10c/doc

 

Edit: Correction, its 204. to 207. page of the flight manual.


Edited by kylekatarn720
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kylekatarn720!

 

So this wind correction converting doesn't

do a' FAHRENHEIT useful thing to Dumb Bombs at all?

 

Do you think Matt Wagner or Ralfidude can confirm this?

(Don't use this Spreadsheets) !??


Edited by FuzzBallHall
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In Bunyap's spreadsheet, (Direction (to)

you put in a' 0 before 71 (071).

 

In Grim Reapers, that does not work, only

put in (71) OK.

 

I'm pretty sure that the wind direction needs to be entered as 3 digits, followed by two digits for wind speed, meaning that Bunyap has it right (not much surprise there ;)).

 

There's always been some discussion whether or not it's even necessary to input this into the CDU. Some people argue that in their tests, it made a real difference. Others say it doesn't make a difference in DCS, and in the real world it's apparently only used under very specific circumstances. Unless the issue is too urgent for you to test yourself, you could... test it yourself.

 

I think Wags never said anything about it, though he probably could. No idea why you think Ralfidude is any authority on this (any more than Bunyap or the Grim Reapers or random dudes putting videos on YouTube).

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  • 4 weeks later...

Tried not entering in wind tonight, with wind speed varying from 3kts at zero feet to 17kts at 5000 feet. GBU12 would miss or land near the target. Entered in winds, and GBU hit targets.

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That's weird, I use the wind correction tables (Bunyap) and I am way more accurate when I do this versus when I don't. Not saying you should use one or the other or any of them because I've heard that some people don't use them at all and they work great. Sounds like something weird is going on there.

 

I would recommend you try with and with out and see what works for you.

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As far as I understood it wind correction through LASTE is only relevant for dropping dumb bombs in CCIP. Guided weapons guide to a certain point anyway, correcting for wind themselves.

''Greed is a bottomless pit which exhausts the person in an endless effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction.''

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As far as I understood it wind correction through LASTE is only relevant for dropping dumb bombs in CCIP. Guided weapons guide to a certain point anyway, correcting for wind themselves.

 

Same here, i never used the laste unless i was using dumb bombs, certainly never had an issue with jdams or laser guided bombs hitting the target with no wind data.

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Same here, i never used the laste unless i was using dumb bombs, certainly never had an issue with jdams or laser guided bombs hitting the target with no wind data.

 

After reading this thread about not needing it, I thought I’d been wasting my time. But without LASTE My GBUs were missing by quite a distance.

 

I certainly wouldn’t enter it if I didn’t have to. I fly on a MP server with random weather.

 

From reading other threads it appears the consensus is that LASTE entry is only needed in bad weather when deploying from high altitude - which I normally do to avoid AAA.

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I ve never used those spreadsheets but you can just use the laste page to find the current wind direction and speed while flying. For example switch cdu to laste, show it on the mfcd, and take notes after you take off while climbing.

 

Lastly, you really dont need to enter wind data manually. IFFCC builds its own wind tables while you are flying, and its dead accurate. Manual entry wont improve it.

^ this..

 

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Tried not entering in wind tonight, with wind speed varying from 3kts at zero feet to 17kts at 5000 feet. GBU12 would miss or land near the target. Entered in winds, and GBU hit targets.

 

Here is a

of a mk82 drop from around 8k feet with no laste manual input, single hit kill on t90.

 

Like yurgon mentioned earlier, this issue has been discussed a lot. I used to almost always used manual wind data input just cos i enjoyed doing it but it doesnt improve anything as far as my experience goes. You can release your dumb or guided weapon from 15k feet if you want and it will hit where your ccip cue points to, as long as you are keeping your aircraft steady before release of course.

 

Laste effects gbu's the same way it effects dumb bombs but since gbu's can guide themselves towards the target it wont make much of difference as long as you are not dealing with wind extremities. If you are missing with gbu's and if there is no problems with the game itself, then its almost always about your delivery method, you are probably doing something wrong.

 

And to be honest this is one of the easiest things to test in dcs, first thing you need to make sure of is your delivery method, it needs to be good enough before trying out laste. If you can consistently one shot a T90 with mk82's from lets say above 6-7k feets of altitude, then you can try out the effects of wind and manual laste input.

 

When i tried this out, not inputting any kind of wind data manually let me hit targets consistently from 10k feet of altitude with mk82's.

 

But of course all of this is what i experienced, best thing to do it try it out yourself and see what happens.

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What was the wind doing in your mission?

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Here is a
of a mk82 drop from around 8k feet with no laste manual input, single hit kill on t90.

 

Like yurgon mentioned earlier, this issue has been discussed a lot. I used to almost always used manual wind data input just cos i enjoyed doing it but it doesnt improve anything as far as my experience goes. You can release your dumb or guided weapon from 15k feet if you want and it will hit where your ccip cue points to, as long as you are keeping your aircraft steady before release of course.

 

Laste effects gbu's the same way it effects dumb bombs but since gbu's can guide themselves towards the target it wont make much of difference as long as you are not dealing with wind extremities. If you are missing with gbu's and if there is no problems with the game itself, then its almost always about your delivery method, you are probably doing something wrong.

 

And to be honest this is one of the easiest things to test in dcs, first thing you need to make sure of is your delivery method, it needs to be good enough before trying out laste. If you can consistently one shot a T90 with mk82's from lets say above 6-7k feets of altitude, then you can try out the effects of wind and manual laste input.

 

When i tried this out, not inputting any kind of wind data manually let me hit targets consistently from 10k feet of altitude with mk82's.

 

But of course all of this is what i experienced, best thing to do it try it out yourself and see what happens.

 

Kind of sounds like the wind was disabled or something, i would imagine dropping mk82 from 10k be to very inaccurate surely, having said that i have never tried it myself..

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Kind of sounds like the wind was disabled or something, i would imagine dropping mk82 from 10k be to very inaccurate surely, having said that i have never tried it myself..

 

It is, at least in a level delivery. The point is that manually entering wind data does not give any notable increase in accuracy over the IFFCCs automatic wind correction. Far greater accuracy is attainable by simply using a more accurate delivery method. Ultimately manually entering wind data is trying to solve a problem that doesn’t really exist in the first place.

 

This is something I and others have explained in depth several times in other threads.

 

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LASTE data tables were done on a preflight with "PREDICTED" weather at the potential target location for estimated time of arrival.

 

This was done in case the A10C Pitot Boom probe on the starboard end of the wing became non-functional you would have approximate values to improve accuracy.

 

Having these values would improve CCRP drop accuracy as CCRP is designed for higher altitude release points.

 

CCIP releases are not affected by wind as much due to their pre-release dive angles and lower altitude release point.

 

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It is, at least in a level delivery. The point is that manually entering wind data does not give any notable increase in accuracy over the IFFCCs automatic wind correction. Far greater accuracy is attainable by simply using a more accurate delivery method. Ultimately manually entering wind data is trying to solve a problem that doesn’t really exist in the first place.

 

 

 

This is something I and others have explained in depth several times in other threads.

Indeed.

 

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What was the wind doing in your mission?

 

It should be around 15 kt's Jimmy IIRC. At the beginning of the video mission editor shows

 

10 kts @ 33 feet

21 kts @ 1600 feet

16 kts @ 6600 feet

14 kts @ 2600 feet

 

I release the bomb somewhere around 8k feet of altitude and you can see that ccip pipper is pointing to top left corner of the T90 at the moment of release, the bomb hits ~5 meters to the right. This difference points to a problem, not about the IFFCC's solution but my control of the aircraft. Still it is a catastrophic kill but i could've done a better job.

 

@Mastersetter If i get the chance today i'll try to the do the same mission with even worse weather and keep the right mfcd on LASTE-wind page so you can also see the wind speed during the sortie.

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I made my own and my CBU-105's hit precisely every time.

 

One thing I see different is I use Fahrenheit and not Celsius.

 

As for GBU's, I've only ever used wind correction for the wind corrected CBU's. I didn't know GBU's needed wind correction as they constantly correct to hit either a GPS location or laser spot. I've never really missed with GBU's even on high wind missions where I didn't enter wind data into the CDU.

 

edit: I have missed somewhat on high turbulence maps. Might have something to do with it.

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Kind of sounds like the wind was disabled or something, i would imagine dropping mk82 from 10k be to very inaccurate surely, having said that i have never tried it myself..

 

 

Like i said, this time the wind speed is 5 kt's higher on every layer, single mk82 direct-hit on T90 released at around 8k feets of altitude and the right mfcd shows the LASTE-wind page so you can see the current wind speed and direction during the flight.

 

Also the track file of the same sortie is attached.

mk82 test.trk


Edited by kylekatarn720
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This should (and I want to stress that word, and it'll keep coming back a lot) be a matter of dynamic vs. static weather.

 

LASTE should build up a database in the background as you pass through different altitude layes, and manual entry should only be needed if you know for a fact that what it has collected does not match the actual conditions at the target site. In DCS, this should basically boil down to a difference between static and dynamic weather.

 

In static weather, the layers you climb through on take-off will be the exact same as the layers the bomb has to fall through at the target site. In dynamic weather, unless you're blowing up your own airport, you can be pretty sure that the two have nothing in common — at best (and I have no idea if the automation does this), LASTE might figure that if winds were 330/15 where you started and 270/08 where you are right now, all db entries should be adjusted by -60° and half-speed.

 

As such, it should also make a difference (in dynamic weather) where you make your climb to release altitude. If you just do it at take-off, the data should be off. If you take the time to do it near the target, it should be mostly accurate again.

 

In addition, this means that translating from the briefing data should be largely pointless: that data is only accurate in static weather, but in static weather, the automation should already be collecting all the data you need… unless you do an air start, in which case all bets are off. Again. :D

 

 

…but that's a whole lot of “should”s, and while I'm sure someone has done the experimentation, I have never come across any results demonstrating what does what and if any of it makes any difference whatsoever. So that's a lot of work for someone to do (or to have done).

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Like i said, this time the wind speed is 5 kt's higher on every layer, single mk82 direct-hit on T90 released at around 8k feets of altitude and the right mfcd shows the LASTE-wind page so you can see the current wind speed and direction during the flight.

 

Also the track file of the same sortie is attached.

 

Thanks for going to all the trouble of testing that, and creating a video - and yes, I was too lazy to go and watch it :)

 

As Tippis has pointed out, there is most likely a difference between static and dynamic weather.

 

Other threads have also made mention that the automatic update of the LASTE in the A10 is probably not modeled.

 

I've never had a problem with bomb delivery until flying in Multiplayer with dynamic weather - with strong winds.

 

It was because of this thread that I thought I was wasting my time, and stopped entering in the data, and then started missing. Once I inputed the data again, I was hitting the targets.

 

So it looks like you don't need to enter the LASTE wind data when you have calm or static weather. There might even be a difference between single player and MP?

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