[DCS BUG] AIM-54

[M0ltar]

Guys, this has become an emotion driven thread, I hope everyone realizes that.

 

We've acknowledged these bugs ages ago and we are working on them from our side as much as we have access to them.

 

Unfortunately I have some bad news, too: the aim54 changes will not be in the next patch. We've implemented changes for the new API, but it seems that the changes take effect only partially. We're currently talking to ED about that and have since decided to not release it as is.

 

The question, gentlemen, whether or not it makes or breaks Multiplayer for you, has onyl indirectly to do with the missile though, and mostly with ourselves. Missiles in DCS are as they are, have been like that for years, and you can either deal with it or not, or limit it to two, or restricted them altogether - but the constant lamenting - on either side - will not bring us anywhere. Sorry, but that, too, needs to be said. Everytime I see this thread has a new reply, I need to take a deep breath, honestly, before I click on it. And some of you fail to see the bigger picture sometimes, where the missile is one bug out of many that affects a rather small portion of players, out of which an even smaller portion is vocal about it, out of which yet again an even smaller portion complains about it. That does not mean that we take it less serious, you all know how much we care about Multiplayer. But it means that there are other pressing issues as well and not everything evolves around Multiplayer or around missiles in multiplayer for that matter. We try to give these things the highest priority we can, but just because it matters highly to all of us PvP folks, it does not mean that it is the only thing that matters in DCS. Please be so kind and don't forget that.

 

The one thing that does matter to us most, is data and facts that help us fix what we can on our side. And in my opinion we have everything we need in this regard, so now we are going through the process of implementing it. Since our access to missile guidance is extremely limited (and will continue to be even after the new API works), this takes time, as we have to do it together with ED.

 

Thank you for your kind patience in the meantime, and our apologies that the changes will not come with the next patch as previously expected.

 

PS: As for SATAL, Moltar, it is not up to me to comment on your rules, but the data that is coming from an environment that has been restricted to the weakest version of the missile and only two of them, is not representative either. In a sense that experiment has already been tweaked for results. How it would really affect such an environment (6vs6 Pvp) in its entirety and through all versions, we would only know if it would have been used entirely unrestricted. And yes, obviously the INS bug would remain and the assumptions are probably fairly close, but they still remain assumptions beyond what we see happens to the 2 remaining missiles per plane.

 

 

I agree that having 2 Phoenix is SATAL is too few, but I cant in good faith allow a missile in more numbers that has too many issues in its current deployment. Thats not because of the missile itself being OP, but because there are issues in the sim surrounding it that cause it to be represented in a misleading fashion. I never said the missile itself was OP in my OP. All Ive been saying is that there are issues in the sim that impact the phoenix that cause it to behave in ways that it should not.

Edited November 20, 2019 by M0ltar

[IronMike]

I agree that having 2 Phoenix is SATAL is too few, but I cant in good faith allow a missile in more numbers that has too many issues in its current deployment. Thats not because of the missile itself being OP, but because there are issues in the sim surrounding it that cause it to be represented in a misleading fashion. I never said the missile itself was OP in my OP. All Ive been saying is that there are issues in the sim that impact the phoenix that cause it to behave in ways that it should not.

 

 

That's totally ok, I mean in general it's not a representative testing ground atm, except for the -Amk47 - that of course counts for claims on either side.

 

But that, too, is ok, we really have all the data we need to see what is wrong with it.

[NaCH]

;4105625']I'm gob smacked at all the drama!

 

If you cannot evade a Phoenix YOU are the problem, not the missile guidance.

 

Its so easy to evade the missile its comical, if it was this super weapon that some of you claim then everytime we flew we'd get smacked down by a Tomcat which is far from the case!

 

The cold hard truth that some of you will struggle to accept is that you are doing it wrong.

If you are one of the people on this thread consistently spouting that the Phoenix is OP and 'something needs to be done' you have to realise that YOU are the problem here, what ever you are trying to do you are NOT doing it properly.

 

There are lots of very good reasons why NONE of the top teams in PvP get kills with the Phoenix while flying in SATAL any more, because it really is easy to evade.

If you keep getting killed with it over and over again in MP, the problem is at your end, I dodge upwards of 7/10 Phoenix's fired at me, get with the programme!

 

 

The problem is there are to many people with low SA flying around pointing their noses straight at Tomcats thinking they will be safe. If a Tomcat is painting you, you better be doing something about that or you will get a Phoenix in the face.

I've seen it 100 times, some low SA bro flying straight towards the inbound Phoenix then calls total BS when he doesn't evade after it goes active.

 

 

Here's a pro tip champ.... how about not fly straight towards that F14 that is painting you???

 

I do agree with most of what you said, but there is also other factor why is not used in SATAL and is very well documented in tacviews and videos. The missile in DCS somehow the farther the distance the biggest the desync. (Ghost Phoenix)

 

It happen to us meany times that we see Phoenix going thru planes and and not exploding.

[comie1]

Hi guys are there any updates on whats happening with the Aim 54 fix?

I've unfortuantly put off flying the module until they are resolved and sadly (apart from one flight yesterday) haven't flown the F14 since the first week of release.

Are the RWR issues, tracking through notches, tracing through mountains, flying through mountains and Dysnc issues all related and for ED to fix?

[Oceandar]

......

Are the RWR issues, tracking through notches, tracing through mountains, flying through mountains and Dysnc issues all related and for ED to fix?

 

Hard defending against it recently on 104th, Comie ? Lol just kidding.

 

IIRC HB said they acquired (API missile ? ) from ED so I believe they're working on it. There's post about this from IronMike (sorry too lazy to search).

Lets hope it would come soon enough next Jan or Feb? as well as missiles overhaul from ED

Edited December 29, 2019 by Oceandar

[comie1]

Oceandar my reasoning for posting is mentioned in my comment.

Thanks for your input but I’m looking for information beyond what any of us can read in the posts above.

The last post on here was around three weeks ago when the patch was pushed back.

I don’t think I’m being unreasonable asking for an update.

[Sam]

So the F14 can't compete in SATAL because of the actual Phoenix ? Hopefully it will after the fix !

Edited January 1, 2020 by Panther 976

[captain_dalan]

So the F14 can't compete in SATAL because of the actual Phoenix ? Hopefully it will after the fix !

 

Meh, even if they don't, who cares?

 

The missile should get fixed so it can perform as close as possible to the real thing, not so it can participate in an e-sports event.

 

Don't get me wrong, i find the events entertaining, but warfare isn't and should never be considered a sport.....for multiple reasons (not the least of which is ethical, but also practical)

[Brigg]

Yeah that's not great if the Phoenix is still flying through mountains

[Sam]

Meh, even if they don't, who cares?

 

The missile should get fixed so it can perform as close as possible to the real thing, not so it can participate in an e-sports event.

 

Don't get me wrong, i find the events entertaining, but warfare isn't and should never be considered a sport.....for multiple reasons (not the least of which is ethical, but also practical)

 

Of course realism has always been the main priority, I didn't mean the missile should be fixed to be competitive. I meant that if it's competitve we will see it being used in SATAL by people far more skilled than I am, and I like to take every opportunities to learn a thing or two :)

Edited January 1, 2020 by Panther 976

[captain_dalan]

Of course realism has always been the main priority, I didn't mean the missile should be fixed to be competitive. I meant that if it's competitve we will see it being used in SATAL by people far more skilled than I am, and I like to take every opportunities to learn a thing or two :)

 

Yeah, i think i see what you mean and i kinda agree with you. SATAL after all hosts some of the best DCS aviators there are, certainly much better then i can ever hope to be.

 

Yet, as a sports events, it is highly structured and based on concepts that don't really apply to a real fight. Concepts like fair play and balance. All this in some cases leads to tactics and application that wouldn't work in a real world environment. Just like DCS being a simulation sometimes leads to the same ends.

 

Let's speculate and presume a realistic Phoenix turns out to be even more capable then it is now. Then what? Do we ban them from use on account them offering an unfair advantage to their users? How does SATAL reflect real world capability then? Or do we "nerf" the missile so others stand better chances?

 

This is why i say "who cares" if our favorite birds participates in SATAL or not. The best way to learn proper usage and tactics, is to probably use it in a squadron that know what its doing. Preferably one that has actual military-combat experience in it.

[GGTharos]

SATAL has nothing in common with reality, so it's irrelevant what happens there wrt modules.

[RPY Variable]

If you are flying low on the mountains, and I shoot from 10K or 20K feets above you, the missile will come through the roof, mountains will not be obstacles. I've got 3 complains about missiles though mountains on multiplayer, saying that the missile is bugged, and all those times iv'e seen them hiding through the mountains while the missile was above them. Be aware of this reports.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

That thing is more like a long range cruise missile.

Holy crap it GOES.

 

I just watched a tacview track and people are firing those thing on COLD targets from 20 miles away, and you still have to full afterburner mach 1 + , zigzag and almost go under the ground if you want to stay alive.

 

I mean i get that it's fun if you are flying an F14, but if you're denying it's literally 3x better than any other air to air missile , then you are lying a little bit.

 

It almost reaches mach 6 . SIX ! And has a burntime of 30 seconds. That's 3x longer than the aim 120.

And it barely loses speed in turns either. Mostly because the motor is just ALWAYS ON, but even when it's out of fuel it seems like you can't bleed it.

 

:megalol:

[Sam]

"Notch or die" :D

 

Speed is one thing, but evading missiles by killing their energy is not the only thing you can do, and is certainly not the best strategy in most cases against the phoenix.

 

However, I believe I read a post from IronMike where he said that the missile was very sensitive to chaffs so they might reduce chaff effectiveness against it.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Trying to notch the missile itself seems a little too risky and i doubt that's a sane strategy in real life ?

For now i just 'boycot' the F14's , i don't engage with them and stay @ 30nm from them at all times, ready to run (and lose half my fuel trying to do so...>_<).

Edited January 5, 2020 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Sam]

It works, and with practice it works quite well

[D4n]

the aim54 changes will not be in the next patch.

The changes that fix the ghost-missile (invisible Phoenix) to finally match the actual position of the visible 3D-model Phoenix you mean?

[draconus]

The changes that fix the ghost-missile (invisible Phoenix) to finally match the actual position of the visible 3D-model Phoenix you mean?

 

No, not that. It was about proper guidance, going active at right time and stuff. For MP desynch go to ED for complaints.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

It works, and with practice it works quite well

 

It really doesn't . I'm certainly a pretty mediocre (if that) pilot but even vs A.I it's impossible to notch it. All that works sometimes, is pumping insane amounts of chaff at EXACTLY the right moment. This is in a sterile 1v1 situation versus a single missile, but in a multiplayer scenario when an F14 has 6 of these insane missiles , you just need to turn cold and avoid all F14's .

 

There seems to be something off with distance as well. Sometimes (well quite often actually) i don't even get a warning, and when i do it's literally 1 second before impact.

The missile will explode 10 miles in front of me, but i'm still dead ?

 

Good lord this thing is such an exploit right now. I am literally just going 180 RTB now as soon as i see an F14 . You heard right, RTB because by the time i finally outran the aim54 i'm out of fuel .

I mean, this aim54 is probably a really bad ass missile in real life, i'm just trying to figure out how a missile with literally 3x the range of any other missile is supposed to fit in a multiplayer/competitive context ?

Edited January 19, 2020 by Csgo GE oh yeah
more info

[Buzzles]

I mean, this aim54 is probably a really bad ass missile in real life, i'm just trying to figure out how a missile with literally 3x the range of any other missile is supposed to fit in a multiplayer/competitive context ?

 

It's not, and it's not the missile's fault or the fault of HB.

 

The only solution is to limit it in MP. Ideally via airfield stores rather than limiting F-14 usage.

That's down to the mission designer and ED improving the stores management part of the mission editor.

[draconus]

I mean, this aim54 is probably a really bad ass missile in real life, i'm just trying to figure out how a missile with literally 3x the range of any other missile is supposed to fit in a multiplayer/competitive context ?

 

If you want level playfield go to place where everybody has the same toys.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

It's not, and it's not the missile's fault or the fault of HB.

 

The only solution is to limit it in MP. Ideally via airfield stores rather than limiting F-14 usage.

That's down to the mission designer and ED improving the stores management part of the mission editor.

 

Well maybe it would be better if HB created a module that was also suitable for multiplayer.

 

If you want level playfield go to place where everybody has the same toys.

 

I can see in your signature you are an F14 module owner. Easy for you to say i guess :)

[lxsapper]

Well maybe it would be better if HB created a module that was also suitable for multiplayer.

 

This has to be a joke. Certainly this has to be a joke.

[Airhunter]

The Phoenix really is super easily trashed by notching and dropping some chaff.