1.2x Wish: F-15A/B/C/D air-to-ground capability

[HungaroJET]

Source:

http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?id=11&bg=13

 

Although primarily an air superiority fighter, the F-15 Eagle has a secondary air-to-ground capability. Up to 16,000 pounds of bombs, fuel tanks, and missiles can be carried, although the F-15A/B/C/D very rarely functions in a ground-attack role.

The underwing pylons can each accommodate a multiple ejector rack which can carry six 500-pound bombs. The bomb racks can be installed on the underwing pylons without disrupting the normal carriage of Sidewinder missiles.

 

Air-to-ground stores can also be carried on the underfuselage centerline.

 

A typical load consists of 18 500-pound bombs, carried 6 each on underwing and centerline ejector racks.

 

The F-15A/B/C/D can carry and deliver laser-guided bombs such as the GBU-10E/B Paveway II or the GBU-12D/B Paveway II. However, it does not have the capability of guiding these weapons by itself, and must rely on laser designators carried by other aircraft or by personnel on the ground.

 

 

 

How it looks in LOMAC:

 

 

[EricJ]

Okay, the F-15A/B/C/D will never have the capability. The USAF made the Strike Eagle for that purpose, and no F-15Cs have been known to have previously in any theatre seen carrying any matter of air-to-ground ordnance. As a JFO, it's my job to call in CAS, so I know for a fact I'll never get a Charlie model F-15 in my request whether it's in Iraq or Afghanistan. Also dropping a Paveway is more complicated (well it's not too difficult really) than you think, so first off, the F-15A/B/C/D models at the minimum need the required electronics to "see" the laser spot first, a la the A-10, so no it cannot even use those, as it's main function (and only) is to kill planes, and not provide any sort of ground attack capability.

[dodger42]

Solution: Add the strike eagle :)

[Aeroscout]

I took a picture of this at an air show. It was on an F-15A

 

EDIT: I talked with the pilot too. I asked him about it and he didn't even know it said bomb rack on the pylon.

[britgliderpilot]

Okay, the F-15A/B/C/D will never have the capability. The USAF made the Strike Eagle for that purpose, and no F-15Cs have been known to have previously in any theatre seen carrying any matter of air-to-ground ordnance. As a JFO, it's my job to call in CAS, so I know for a fact I'll never get a Charlie model F-15 in my request whether it's in Iraq or Afghanistan. Also dropping a Paveway is more complicated (well it's not too difficult really) than you think, so first off, the F-15A/B/C/D models at the minimum need the required electronics to "see" the laser spot first, a la the A-10, so no it cannot even use those, as it's main function (and only) is to kill planes, and not provide any sort of ground attack capability.

 

Mmmn.

 

The capability did exist, but the USAF never trained for it and never used it. I don't recall whether software updates eventually removed the capability.

The Saudis, with the same aircraft, do train for it and used it in GW1.

 

You can argue that it's a possibility for the F-15C . . . . but then there's a whole heap of other A2A modes that aren't modelled for the F-15C either, and IMO dropping bombs comes a very long second to them.

 

 

On LGBs - I'll have to recheck the books, but IIRC Sea Harriers with minimal equipment used Paveways in the Falklands after several attempts. But they did have a laser rangefinger to buddy-lase the position.

[dodger42]

I talked with the pilot too. I asked him about it and he didn't even know it said bomb rack on the pylon.

 

That's pretty amazing. No doubt the pilot would have done plenty of pre-flight inspections. You'd hope for his sake he paid attention to details like this.

 

I did a pre-flight on an aircraft once and found a spanner attached to a bolt underneath the fuselage. :)

[EricJ]

On LGBs - I'll have to recheck the books, but IIRC Sea Harriers with minimal equipment used Paveways in the Falklands after several attempts. But they did have a laser rangefinger to buddy-lase the position.

 

Back then maybe, but it's far different now, as you can't use a simple rangefinder as my Mark VII can't designate for a Paveway II or III, it's a coded beam that it homes on, not a simple laser pulse.

[FWT]

Thats pretty cool, how did you manage to do A2G on pylons?

[Geier]

The only F-15C with AN/APG 70 and F-15E Strike Eagle have such capability;)

 

AN/APG-70's A/G features are available for the aircrew when the radar is in A/G mode, which can be evoked by taking command of an A/G radar screen on one of the MPD's. In A/G mode, AN/APG-70 utilizes SAR technology to map the targeted area to produce a bird's eye view of it, where different ground features (as small as tanks, trucks, etc.) can be cleary distinguished. SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) technology requires to paint the target with radar energy from different ranges and azimuths. As a rule of thumb, the greater the size of the radar antenna, the better the resolution of the created map, which is often called as 'patch map' by fighter speak, or more oficially a HRM - High Resolution Map. The size of the F-15E radar antenna is much too small to produce a useable patch map, therefore creating a SAR image requires the jet to fly offset to the direction of the targeted area and make a couple of 'snapshots' from different azimuths and ranges. This way (aided by a powerful computer) a large sized radar antenna can be simulated by the jets movement and great resolutions can be achieved.

 

The AN/APG-70 also has a feature called PVU (Precision Velocity Update). By doing PVU the radar scans 8 sectors of terrain in front of the jet quickly in order to update/validate the velocity values used by the INS to keep position. This simple technique makes it possible for the aircrew to designate the target from the generated SAR radar image.

 

AN/APG-70 has the following A/G modes:

 

Real Beam Map (RBM) mode:

 

RBM mode displays radar returns from diferent terrain elements in front of the jet as an arc projected onto one of the MPD/MPCD's. On the image the F-15E is on the bottom of the display. The radar scans the terrain at a rate of 95 degrees per second. The range of the scan can be selected by the aircrew by choosing from the following values: 4.7 nm, 10 nm, 20 nm, 40 nm, 80 nm (this is a theoretical range of course, real ranges scanned depend on the LOS of the radar). Azimuth limits for the scan can also be set, available values are 50, 25 and 12.5 degrees to both sides of the F-15E (scanning 100, 50 and 25 degrees in azimuth, respectively).

 

Having an RBM displayed the WSO can select a point within the displayed arc to be the center point of a HRM to create. Then HRM can be created (see HRM mode, below) of the terrain section represented by the selected point.

 

The RBM image can be frozen by pressing the laser fire button on the throttle (either pilot or WSO). With the image frozen the results of successive radar scans will not be shown of course, giving reason for the aircrew to put the radar in 'SNIFF' mode during this time, that is prohibiting any radar emissions to leave the AN/APG-70. This not just reduces the chances of detection by enemy, but lets the WSO place his cursor more easily on the RBM image to produce a HRM (note, that many WSO's just don't freeze the RBM at all).

 

High Resolution Map (HRM) mode:

 

A HRM can be produced practically from any area that is scanned and is displayed on the RBM image. There are some limitations however. Because of the reasons mentioned above, while producing a HRM image the F-15E should NOT fly directly towards the target. The greater the azimuth to the target, the less time it will take for the computer to produce a HRM (which is generally around 4-10 seconds) and the better the quality of the HRM will be - so the quicker the better. Flight level is also a factor. If the jet flies too low, the range to create a good HRM might not be enough. If the jet flies too high, the HRM might loose important details. The following diagram illustrates this.

jsStartPictures(); jsPic(1,262,"an_apg-70_04_eng.jpg","Areas to create good patch maps (HRM's)"); jsStopPictures();

Areas to create good patch maps (HRM's)

The diagram depicts the AN/APG-70's 120 degree ground mapping coverage with arcs drawn representing quarters of the radar range set by the aircrew. The pinkish area right in front of the jet is called a blind zone: no HRM's can be created from within this zone, since azimuth offsets are not good enough here (theoretically saying, a SAR image is still possble to create from here, but it would require a huge amount of time, which is highly impractical in a tactical situation). The blind zone represents an area of 8-8 degrees azimuth to the left and right. The red areas are the best places to create a good quality HRM, these zones are between 30 and 50 degrees azimuth on both sides and between about 50% and 75% of the selected radar range (for example 20-30 nm if the range was set to 40 nm).

 

The HRM image covers a rectangular area with equal sides. The size of this area (called DW - Display Window) can be selected by the aircrew before letting the computer generate the HRM. Available DW sizes are 0.67 nm, 1.3 nm, 3.3 nm, 4.7 nm, 10 nm, 20 nm, 40 nm.

 

As it was mentioned before flight level is a factor for creating HRM's. The following table gives the maximum possible radar ranges at different altitudes flown (given in AGL) where HRM's can be created. The range values in the table are valid only over flat terrain - terrain obstacles such as hills or mountain ranges can of course limit the maximum radar ranges, since creating a HRM is a LOS dependent process.

 

Altitude (AGL)

Maximum Range 50 feet

8.1 nm 100 feet

11.4 nm 200 feet

16.2 nm 300 feet

19.8 nm 400 feet

22.9 nm 500 feet

25.6 nm 1000 feet

36.2 nm

DW size setting can also affect the range from which the HRM can be created. As a rule of thumb, the smaller the DW size (that is the greater the SAR image resolution), the shorter the range the HRM can be produced from. The following table gives the minimum and maximum radar ranges a HRM of a given DW size can be produced from. The resolution of the HRM is also given in feet, meaning that objects smaller than the given resolution will be displayed on the HRM as if they were the size of the resolution itself (if they are displayed at all - this depends on their radar cross section).

 

DW size

Min-Max Radar Range

Resolution 0.67 nm

2.7 - 20 nm

8.5 feet 1.3 nm

2.7 - 40 nm

17 feet 3.3 nm

2.7 - 50 nm

42 feet 4.7 nm

2.8 - 80 nm

59 feet 10 nm

6 - 160 nm

127 feet 20 nm

12 - 160 nm

253 feet 40 nm

24 - 160 nm

507 feet 80 nm

48 - 160 nm

1014 feet

Note that the best possible resolution (which can be achieved from 20 nm, which is still quite a distance) is 8.5 feet - good enough to display even individual cars in a parking lot for example! As an illustration of how a real HRM looks like, here are some examples for real HRM images of different resolutions (all images below were made of an airfield).

jsStartPictures(); jsPic(1,550,"an_apg-70_05.jpg","HRM images of an airfield with resolutions of 42 feet, 17 feet and 8.5 feet, respectively (www.fas.org)"); jsStopPictures();

HRM images of an airfield with resolutions of 42 feet, 17 feet and 8.5 feet, respectively (www.fas.org)

Ground Moving Target (GMT) mode: Although the vehicles usually targeted (SAM's, trucks, tanks, etc.) do show up on the finest resolution HRM's, but they are still very difficult to pick up on a static HRM, especially if they are moving. To pick up moving ground objects the AN/APG-70 features a specific radar mode called GMT. GMT utilizes doppler shifts of ground returns to detect ground movements. Note that it does NOT detect the moving objects themselves (nor does it identify them), it just pinpoint a geographical area where movement is detected from. Movement detection is not possible beyond 32 nm, regardless of the radar range settings. GMT provides the same 'radar sweep' display as in RBM mode, but non-moving ground objects and terrain is filtered out, only moving objects are shown as small, bright crosshairs. This way they are easy to designate thus pass their position on to other targeting systems such as the targeting pod or the video seeker of a Maverick missile for example.

 

Interleaved Ground Moving Target (IGMT) mode: IGMT is the same as GMT with respect to detecting moving ground objects. It however superimposes target crosses over the usual RBM image, thus giving the WSO the added advantage of seeing the targets in their surroundings. Detection limits and designation methods are the same as in GMT mode.

 

 

http://web.interware.hu/f15e/techinfo/an_apg-70_eng.htm

[Vekkinho]

Ooomph, Geier!

 

Nice info you've got there!

 

A2G option on F-15C ain't a realism in USAF, F-15E Strike was built for that purpose but I wouldn't count on getting F-15E in BS.

 

Lack of data & out of interest are most probable reasons!

[Pilotasso]

Adding AG capability would be interesting. Besides Unlike BGP said, I dont believe adding CCIP cues on F-15 HUD would be too hard since they already exist for A-10.

 

Since there are airforces capable of employing Iron bombs on the F-15 I dont see why we shouldnt. ED included R-77 on Mig and KH-41 on the SU-33 wich they never actualy did, why cant we have Iron bombs on the Eagle?

[GGTharos]

You're incorrect Geier ... the -63 also has ground-mapping modes, but for the most part the software for them has been removed.

[Geier]

You're incorrect Geier ... the -63 also has ground-mapping modes, but for the most part the software for them has been removed.

 

My fault, sorry

 

The AN/APG 63 (v1) or (v2) have got CCIP :)

[SUBS17]

From what I've read Israeli F-15Cs can still carry bombs and USAF F-15Cs have been tested with JDAMs not so long ago so its not impossible for them to be carrying bombs although I think the E is better suited for the job.

[Geier]

The only A2G F15A mode are called automatic A2G mode and CDIP mode

[tflash]

Well, the Israeli F-15's (A/B/C/D) did use the air to ground capability.

 

See, e.g.: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/f15.htm

 

You do NOT need an air-to-ground mapping mode imho; you would need some kind of CCIP though if you want to know somehow where your bombs would go.

 

On the LGB's, I also heard that somewhere but I never found a source. Maybe the Israeli F-15's could? (Of course the F-15I can, but that is another story).

 

EDIT: didn't read Geiers' post, which explains everything!

[HungaroJET]

Yes...Israel...Iv read somewhere (i cant remember where: book or NET) Israeli F-15s (maybe the "A" versions) dropped dumb bombs in Arabian-Israeli war.

 

Im still searching the source...

 

Adding AG capability would be interesting.

 

Otherwise i'm working on a MOD inwhich Players will able to order wingmen to drop bombs on ground targets by F-15C.

[mcnab]

You know what's sad? It takes ages for Eagle Dynamics to release a chopper sim, yet, during all this time, they didn't have time or will to introduce some avionics changes to the existing flyables. We're not asking huge changes, but some that could really make a difference, like the above mentioned F15C AG capability that obviously does exist IRL.

[mcnab]

ED included R-77 on Mig and KH-41 on the SU-33 wich they never actualy did

 

Well, there is aparently one RuAF MiG-29S squadron capable of employing R-77s so you can't really say it was never there. A for KH-41, I agree. It should be removed. It just makes no sense.

[FWT]

How will this work?F-15 in game has no A2G system in order to drop A2G.

[britgliderpilot]

You know what's sad? It takes ages for Eagle Dynamics to release a chopper sim, yet, during all this time, they didn't have time or will to introduce some avionics changes to the existing flyables. We're not asking huge changes, but some that could really make a difference, like the above mentioned F15C AG capability that obviously does exist IRL.

 

You think they don't need every last minute of that time to get the Ka50 working properly? ;)

[Geier]

How will this work?F-15 in game has no A2G system in order to drop A2G.

 

Just choose the bomb, press "Alt+w" to unlock and press "fire":)

[Geier]

If you want to see the real AN/APG 70 A2A modes - read my thread

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=23751

[mcnab]

You think they don't need every last minute of that time to get the Ka50 working properly? ;)

 

And this coming from a beta tester, a person who is playing the game all the time and who is as such, not really 'craving' for the release. ;)

 

They've been working on it for quite a long time. I mean, it's fair to say during all this time they could have added some little improvements to the existing flyables. It's what most fans expect and, naturally, ask for it.:joystick:

[britgliderpilot]

And this coming from a beta tester, a person who is playing the game all the time and who is as such, not really 'craving' for the release. ;)

 

Oh sure. I don't care how long ED take with a fully functional release of Black Shark . . . I mean, I've got it right here!

Those little bugs like my aircraft randomly exploding or no missiles hitting after I've just done a ramp start and flown an hour's NOE ingress to a target are just fine, and no hindrance to the enjoyment of the sim at all . . . .

 

It's a good myth you have there ;)

 

 

They've been working on it for quite a long time. I mean, it's fair to say during all this time they could have added some little improvements to the existing flyables. It's what most fans expect and, naturally, ask for it.:joystick:

 

The fact that a lot of time has been spent working on Black Shark absolutely does not mean there's been spare capability for anything else.

 

It's like saying to the builders of, say, the Milau bridge that they could have thrown up a couple of tower blocks into the bargain . . .