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Air to Air Radar


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Spotlight Mode

 

I just wanted to step back to Preendog's remarks to help us all better understand how the radar works and how we as pilots need to understand how to optimize our sensors to get the information/lock status desired.

 

What Preendog and others (including myself) described is Spotlight mode. This mode is entered anytime you place the cursor over an empty space on the Attk Rdr display and TDC depress. That will direct the MC to focus all radar energy onto a small patch of sky as the radar sweeps a narrow azimuth in an attempt to pick up any return signal. If nothing is found, it defaults back to the last setting while placing the cursor top left. When you perform a spotlight search of a HAFU provided by AWACS or another donor and fail to get any altitude or velocity data and are not able to designate/acquire it, that simply means that the radar is not pointing in the correct location. Example:

 

Last night I flew with some of the guys in our training server, launching from a carrier and at 35,000' feet wet nearing the coast north of Sochie I followed a group of contacts displayed on the SA page. As I crossed the coast and these appeared on the Attk Rdr display I attempted a Mode 4 interrogation but failed to get any data. I switched to the SA page and placed the cursor over each of the contacts and got some BRA data but that didn't help. So I switched back to the Attk Rdr and attempted to conduct a UCTR on one of the contacts now only 25-30 nm to my 11 o'clock. Nothing. I then called up the AWACS to request Bogey Dope and got the clue I needed.

 

As I was flying inland with contacts clearly showing ahead, I had my radar elevation set at 57 - 23K'. When the Bogey Dope BRA data was supplied, I depressed my radar elevation down to something like 35-8K' and there they were flying along the mountain valleys at 11,000'. Now I was able to place the TDC cursor over the HAFU, complete Mode 4 and then designate and acquire them into STT.

 

So thanks to your posts and questions, we've learned a few new things about radar and sensor configuration this week. Thanks guys, hopefully this has been useful for you as well.

 

Cheers

 

Speed


Edited by No.401_Speed
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401 speed - Sorry, been out of town and missed out on discussion. Just to clarify a few things:

 

SCS direction to activate bump acquisition depends on what mode your bumping. You mentioned SCS forward, which is correct from BST. But if you entered STT via fast acq., or SCS right (if atk radar format on right DDI), SCS right will bump. Think of it as bumping whatever designation was used to enter STT. This includes ACM modes, so down for VAQC, WAQC/GAQC dependant on DDI attack format is on. Note that the RTS time varies on mode as well, 2 second bump in BST vs 10 second AACQ.

 

Similarly, the oscillating azimuth line we currently have isn't spotlight. Spotlight will display SPOT above the bottom center azimuth mark and the cursor will change to a X. More importantly it creates a slewable space stabilized fast update scan volume of about 20 degrees, centered on the X. You're correct that TDC depress on empty space will enter spotlight eventually, but its not in game yet.

 

I don't know whether the hafu's and bricks is as intended or not. I suspect so as it is accurate depending on why. If no surv or c3 donors for example, as other fighters donate limited information (e.g. one trackfile if they are in STT).

 

All of this is why we are encouraging ya'll to use L&S with fast and auto acquisition modes and build SA as you close (for now just ID bricks, narrow azimuth scan, adjust altitude and modulation). Trying to guess position on a MSI trackfile is bad news. AWACS dome takes about 10 seconds for 1 revolution, and datalink track updates can be several seconds old, and often missed. Targets maneuver, but even straight and level target will move laterally due to distortion from the azimuth/range projection. If you don't know what I'm talking about google B-Scan distortion or projection, something like that. I don't want to post a link and get in trouble but look for images showing the J L pattern an offset reciprocal heading track will move for explanation.

 

Oh and thanks, I was not aware WAQC was slewable yet. Look forward to checking that out.

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Really good conversation and info here. I'd just like to add some observations of my own.

 

1. In response to GrEaSeLiTeNiN's comment about AWACS picking up only one target in a pair, I've seen it as well. It'll often only pick up only one of the two or I guess pick both of them as one contact. I often see what your screenshot shows, which is normal. The target coming from the C2 donor is the small red diamond, while the brick is the one you pick up yourself. AFAIK, MSI is supposed to display non-donated targets that are only picked up by ownship as bricks, switching to a top-only HAFU upon placing the TDC over the target (TUC).

 

2. I've had quite a bit of success with locking MSI trackfiles in STT, assuming my radar antenna elevation limits included the target's altitude. Even if your radar doesn't currently pick up the target (nothing changes when you slew the TDC over the HAFU), commanding STT narrows the beam to 8 degrees and rapidly scans across all elevation bars, so it picks up the target fairly quickly.

 

2b. Sometimes, I'll go for a simple LTWS L&S designation (single TDC Depress) and the radar will instead enter STT. I can't be sure, but I think this happens if at the moment of the TDC Depress, the TDC is not perfectly centered on the contact or the radar has momentarily lost the contact and what I describe in 2 occurs. The radar definitely has trouble in very tight contact formations and will often switch to STT instead of LTWS L&S, simply because the TDC is kinda over two contacts, so the radar will pick one of them and STT it.

 

3. I have a mission where several friendly flights go against several hostile flights, totaling 24 hostile aircraft. As soon as my radar picks up the targets, it starts ranking them and I get ranked HAFUs, but only up to rank 15. I still have some correlated onboard HAFUs (donated + picked up by my own radar) that show up as hostile diamonds, but without a rank, just a small dot in the middle of the HAFU. AFAIK, there's a limit on the number of ranked tracks displayed, so I think this is coming to play here.

 

4. In relevance to 3, I think the radar is supposed to display only the top 8 ranked contacts as full HAFUs, with MSI enabled. The rest of the contacts are shown as bricks, even if they're donated, to avoid cluttering. Naturally, if a contact ranked in top 8 drops below rank 8, another contact will have its full HAFU displayed. Designating L&S and DT2 targets overrides the ranking criteria and changes which HAFUs are displayed.


Edited by Harker

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Harker -

 

I am confused by a few things in your post... Sounds like you are running into some WIP/placeholder stuff. The behavior in 2 is wrong. TDC press should:

If over a brick or trackfile - designate L&S if L&S does not exist, else DT2

If over L&S, command STT

If over empty space, enter manual scan center if in TWS, spotlight if in RWS/VS.

 

I might be forgetting something above but in any case it should not go from raw hit to STT if LTWS is enabled. Regarding 3, you've surmised right. The MC radar can display up to 16 trackfiles but should only display 8 hafu ranked files, the remainder as low priority tracks (LPT) with just a + symbol. I don't recall recently having that many tracks on the radar so can't confirm whether this is in yet, or if its not yet implemented, so we are getting bricks in the interim. Designating another trackfile L&S will change priority of all others dynamically, as will adding a DT2.

 

I suspect cyclng trackfiles by undesignate will be in soon, which is very useful. Essentially allows you to cycle L&S designation through ranked trackfiles by TDC depress, or two swap L&S and DT2.

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Hey Skootch,

 

You're right, my 2nd point shouldn't work that way IRL, but it is a workaround for the current lack of Spotlight. Even if you only see the donated trackfile, this method allows you to lock it up in STT quickly. IRL, it would allow you to quickly scan that region and pick it up with your radar, with Spotlight.

 

As for 3 and 4, thanks for clarifying it. I didn't know that LPTs were instead shown as +, I thought they showed up as bricks. Anyway, this isn't in the sim yet. Right now, you see a HAFU for every single contact, detected and/or donated, with ranks inside the HAFUs going up to 16 and after that a dot in the HAFU.

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Sometimes, I'm finding it better to switch off MSI on RDR ATTK and rely on SA page and AWACS to get awareness on donor targets. Otherwise, I may spend time trying to lock up MSI tracks that are not lockable yet. Just bricks are so much easier to deal with. I'm also thinking AWACS tracks may disappear as the aircraft orbits depending on distance?

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I rarely disable MSI, as I find the increased SA indispensable. But since the AA radar is so bare-bones at the moment, disabling MSI is the only way of decluttering an area with lots of targets.

 

I often find that AWACS is not all-seeing, as sometimes I pick up targets it doesn't, for example due to the terrain or due to the fact that it might be far away and pick up a 2-ship flight as a single contact.

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Bumb Acquisition & Spotlight Mode

 

Thanks for the clarification guys. I've learned a bit more and look forward to continuing that process. That explanation of bump acquisition makes perfect sense, because I was sure that I had read somewhere that to activate bump acquisition when in STT, the SCS was pushed forward. So when I originally posted that and then read information pertaining to BVR/Upper function, I thought that I made a mistake when I then found the process described whereby the SCS is pushed toward the Attk Rdr display when in STT. So now it makes sense.

 

Sorry for my bad guess on spotlight, seemed logical at the time but I shouldn't have assumed that to be correct. Last thing I wanted to do was add incorrect information to the discussion. My bad.

 

Your posts are pure gold gents, keep em' coming. Without the benefit of a technical manual, this is our best option to learn. Wags produces some excellent videos on the basics, while Grim Reaper, Spudknocker and others get into more nuts and bolts, but the discussions here are best at teasing out the nuances of the Hornet and it's systems.

 

Cheers

 

Speed

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Air to Air Radar

 

401 SCS direction to activate bump acquisition depends on what mode your bumping. You mentioned SCS forward, which is correct from BST. But if you entered STT via fast acq., or SCS right (if atk radar format on right DDI), SCS right will bump. Think of it as bumping whatever designation was used to enter STT. This includes ACM modes, so down for VAQC, WAQC/GAQC dependant on DDI attack format is on. Note that the RTS time varies on mode as well, 2 second bump in BST vs 10 second AACQ..

 

 

I never knew there was bump acquisition (cycling of targets I take it), thanks! (Edit: Not modeled at this time.)


Edited by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

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I never knew there was bump acquisition (cycling or targets I take it), thanks!

 

Apologies if I wasn't clear on that, as Santi871 said, bump acq is not in game yet. Neither, for that matter, is most of the functionality associated with the undesignate button. I think its close given the addition of ranked trackfiles, but its not here yet.

 

Those functions are why I am stressing the formal process I am. The undesignate button controls L&S targeting functions, or at least it will, reducing the frequency of slew + TDC depress. Once implemented, if no L&S exist, undesignate button will make the highest ranked MSI Trackfile the L&S target; if L&S exists but no DT2 exists, undesignate will step L&S through ranked trackfiles; and if both L&S and DT2 exist, undesignate will swap the two.

 

When you add in the acquisition modes we've been discussing, you can start to see how effective the systems are in terms of quickly acquiring and engaging targets without ever touching slew (which is quite slow). The other big thing that I imagine will be added soon are the hotas functions for changing DDI screens without dealing with the SUPT/TAC PB tree, scan centering, mode changes, etc.

 

When that is all added (including TWS), she will be a very different beast.

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Thanks. Sure sounds great what undesignate button can do together with bump acquisition.

 

Questions though: a) if undesignate does all those things, how do I undesignate completely (when I don’t want any designation)? b) MSI tracks not yet picked up by own radar will be skipped in the process?

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Thanks. Sure sounds great what undesignate button can do together with bump acquisition.

 

Questions though: a) if undesignate does all those things, how do I undesignate completely (when I don’t want any designation)? b) MSI tracks not yet picked up by own radar will be skipped in the process?

 

RESET pushbutton erases the L&S and DT2, among other things that aren't in yet.

 

Right now you can't make an offboard-only track L&S, so those would be skipped.

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A donated track/HAFU shows up that your radar has not yet detected. You can't lock it up. You need your radar to pick it up.

 

By this I assume you mean the red diamond symbol of a donor track which appears both on SA and Radar.

 

Distance is known, I presume by estimating from the radar range?

 

What do you mean byt "estimating from the radar range"? By your wording it seems you are confused about how MSI works. Every time the radar detects something, the radar "knows" its position in 3D space. Given that the donor aircraft detected the donated contact with its own radar, it also knows where in 3D space that contact is. Once these positions are shared amongst the aircraft, its easy for the Hornet computers to overlay these contacts over your own radar scope - no "estimating" is required.

 

Azimuth should be easy. But what radar altitudes do I scan to pick it up?

 

STEP on SA page until desired donated track is highlighted, check altitude. Adjust radar antenna elevation to cover this altitude.

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What do you mean byt "estimating from the radar range"? By your wording it seems you are confused about how MSI works. Every time the radar detects something, the radar "knows" its position in 3D space. Given that the donor aircraft detected the donated contact with its own radar, it also knows where in 3D space that contact is. Once these positions are shared amongst the aircraft, its easy for the Hornet computers to overlay these contacts over your own radar scope - no "estimating" is required.

 

None of that happens in real time, MSI trackfiles are always estimates (actually, all are). Not because the Hornet’s MC can’t do trig, but rather the frequency of update can vary significantly based on circumstance.

 

MC builds a trackfile as data is provided, but unless you are STT, every contact is aged to some extent. In some cases this is a few seconds, if multiple donors are tracking. If just one donor, perhaps with a 6 bar 140 degree interleaved RWS sweep, it might be a while between updates. . In others cases even if datalink is working perfectly (some lag is modeled, but I think it’s just a fixed amount), awacs takes a full 10-seconds to spin that dome, that’s a lot of time with abc of 1000kts and potentially maneuvering. I don’t remember the exact context but did post some related info earlier in this thread about the topic here

 

 

[T]his is why we are encouraging ya'll to use L&S with fast and auto acquisition modes and build SA as you close (for now just ID bricks, narrow azimuth scan, adjust altitude and modulation). Trying to guess position on a MSI trackfile is bad news. AWACS dome takes about 10 seconds for 1 revolution, and datalink track updates can be several seconds old, and often missed. Targets maneuver, but even straight and level target will move laterally due to distortion from the azimuth/range projection. If you don't know what I'm talking about google B-Scan distortion or projection, something like that. I don't want to post a link and get in trouble but look for images showing the J L pattern an offset reciprocal heading track will move for explanation.

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By this I assume you mean the red diamond symbol of a donor track which appears both on SA and Radar.

Yes, but mostly referring to it being on the Rdr page as that's where you try to lock it up.

 

What do you mean by "estimating from the radar range"? By your wording it seems you are confused about how MSI works. Every time the radar detects something, the radar "knows" its position in 3D space. Given that the donor aircraft detected the donated contact with its own radar, it also knows where in 3D space that contact is. Once these positions are shared amongst the aircraft, its easy for the Hornet computers to overlay these contacts over your own radar scope - no "estimating" is required.

What I mean is if your Rdr page is set at 40nm and the contact is half-way on the screen, it's estimated at about 20nm. Or I could put the cursor on it and read bottom left corner for range (forgot about that!). But range doesn't really matter in that if you have it on the Rdr page, then it's there. It's the scan altitude that needs adjusting.

 

STEP on SA page until desired donated track is highlighted, check altitude. Adjust radar antenna elevation to cover this altitude.

Thanks I forgot about the STEP in button in the SA page though I prefer to stay on the Rdr page to save time. But I noticed the Rdr often has trouble picking up the MSI contact even with the correct Rdr altitude scan range. But once I set the PRF to HI it will detect it quite soon. I think that solved the problem.


Edited by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

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Don't want to open a topic for this, I hope is related.

 

I noticed that Interleaved scan does not change the starting frequency on each new scan (all bars) so for example in 4B scan it does [HI MED HI MED] swap antenna up again, [HI MED HI MED] instead of changing to the inverse and do [MED HI MED HI]. Am I missing something or it should invert the scan order?

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Don't want to open a topic for this, I hope is related.

 

I noticed that Interleaved scan does not change the starting frequency on each new scan (all bars) so for example in 4B scan it does [HI MED HI MED] swap antenna up again, [HI MED HI MED] instead of changing to the inverse and do [MED HI MED HI]. Am I missing something or it should invert the scan order?

 

Good point. Afaik it should be like you say.

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Sometimes, I'm finding it better to switch off MSI on RDR ATTK and rely on SA page and AWACS to get awareness on donor targets. Otherwise, I may spend time trying to lock up MSI tracks that are not lockable yet. Just bricks are so much easier to deal with. I'm also thinking AWACS tracks may disappear as the aircraft orbits depending on distance?

 

The "radar contribution" circle is missing from the HAFU tracks. IDK if its just a WIP issue or a missing piece.

 

The circle in the HAFU indicates that your own radar is also detecting the target. Thus you wouldn't have that problem.

 

 

 

Here is a clear image of it, though in the more modern Super Hornet.

 

yu3RFZt.jpg?1

This image is from tail hook 2019..

 

I will try to find an image of it in the APG-65/73


Edited by Beamscanner
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The "radar contribution" circle is missing from the HAFU tracks. IDK if its just a WIP issue or a missing piece.

 

The circle in the HAFU indicates that your own radar is also detecting the target. Thus you wouldn't have that problem.

 

 

 

Here is a clear image of it, though in the more modern Super Hornet.

 

yu3RFZt.jpg?1

 

I will try to find an image of it in the APG-65/73

Oh, so this circles indicate onboard contribution? That is interesting. I wonder if this was something added with the Super and/or the newer radar, or do you know if it's also in the Legacy with our radar?

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Oh, so this circles indicate onboard contribution? That is interesting. I wonder if this was something added with the Super and/or the newer radar, or do you know if it's also in the Legacy with our radar?

 

yes. Its not new, its mentioned several times in APG-65/73 material available online.

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The "radar contribution" circle is missing from the HAFU tracks. IDK if its just a WIP issue or a missing piece.

 

The circle in the HAFU indicates that your own radar is also detecting the target. Thus you wouldn't have that problem.

 

 

 

Here is a clear image of it, though in the more modern Super Hornet.

 

yu3RFZt.jpg?1

This image is from tail hook 2019..

 

I will try to find an image of it in the APG-65/73

 

 

 

Interesting, thks. But I'm thinking, why is that necessary since the red 3/4 diamond MSI track becomes a yellow HAFU once your radar picks it up. If I set the radar scan altitude correctly and change PRF to Hi (works better with Hi), the radar will pick them up quite quickly.

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The "radar contribution" circle is missing from the HAFU tracks. IDK if its just a WIP issue or a missing piece.

 

The circle in the HAFU indicates that your own radar is also detecting the target. Thus you wouldn't have that problem.

 

 

 

Here is a clear image of it, though in the more modern Super Hornet.

 

yu3RFZt.jpg?1

This image is from tail hook 2019..

 

I will try to find an image of it in the APG-65/73

Good find. I'd welcome the extra symbology. But isn't the top part of the HAFU only visible if ownship is detecting as well? Otherwise it's either the smaller full HAFU from the AWACS or the bottom-only HAFU from F/F. Am I missing something?

Also, while we're talking about HAFUs, how does AWACS always know if the target is hostile vs just unknown (no Mode 4 IFF reply)? Is its radar capable of NCTR in such long ranges? Is its ROE matrix supposed to be different than that of fighters? Because right now it just knows as soon as it detects the contact and I don't know if that's realistic. Doesn't seem to be.

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