TM F/A-18C Hornet, Warthog and Cougar grips disassembly and OTTO switch upgrade

[DeadMeat]

Yeah nah nothing in the mail so far 

[YKYPEHHbIu_TunOK]

Gentlemen,

Sorry for the off-topic, but did anybody disassemble the real OTTO 4way hat or any other milspec one and saw how it actually works? 

I've searched all the internet, but no luck.

 

 

[DeadMeat]

On 9/4/2021 at 12:43 AM, YKYPEHHbIu_TunOK said:

Gentlemen,

Sorry for the off-topic, but did anybody disassemble the real OTTO 4way hat or any other milspec one and saw how it actually works? 

I've searched all the internet, but no luck.

 

 

These patents may be of interest. They have some interesting (principle) drawings:

• OTTO Multiposition electrical switch
• OTTO trim switch
• Guardian electrical multi-position switch
• "TM alike" hat switch concept

 

[YKYPEHHbIu_TunOK]

2 hours ago, DeadMeat said:

These patents may be of interest. They have some interesting (principle) drawings:

• OTTO Multiposition electrical switch
• OTTO trim switch
• Guardian electrical multi-position switch
• "TM alike" hat switch concept

 

Thank you very much!

[YKYPEHHbIu_TunOK]

BTW, this is how erly version slew control ministick from soviet airctafts looks like. An engineering marvel isn't it?

[rel4y]

17 hours ago, DeadMeat said:

These patents may be of interest. They have some interesting (principle) drawings:

• OTTO Multiposition electrical switch
• OTTO trim switch
• Guardian electrical multi-position switch
• "TM alike" hat switch concept

 

 

Great info, thanks!

 

14 hours ago, YKYPEHHbIu_TunOK said:

BTW, this is how erly version slew control ministick from soviet airctafts looks like. An engineering marvel isn't it?

 

[pics removed]

 

Also great info!

[Repvez]

Hi I found this topic  and  I would like to ask somebody who have a little experience about the otto switches.

I have a Plastic (first version) TM F16FLCS/TQS and I would like to upgrade the whole inside , but I need some information . Those switches are usable for this Joystick also?The  control panel would be an MMJOY2 with arduino pro micro.  or do you know better softver for this panel? 

The most needed thing would be  the TQS erase head ministick. can somebody offer which  switch would be the best to replace it? linear X,Y axis and push button.

There is any hall effect sensor version from otto or other cheapest solution? The PS3 minijoy and PSP  doesn't fit in it.

like this:https://www.otto-controls.com/products/electromechanical-switches/transducers J2S2 or J4 ?

And also there would be nice If I find a good hall effect solution for all potentionmeter  in the TQS.

And what about the Trigger there is any alternate to replace it ? I found this but it is also very expensive:

https://www.otto-controls.com/u2-016  or others 

And do you know what the differences  the T4 and T5 4 way switches except the push function?  because there is many of them on the site but they have different  part number but they look like to be all identical .

https://hu.mouser.com/c/electromechanical/switches/multi-directional-switches/

[DeadMeat]

12 hours ago, Repvez said:

Hi I found this topic  and  I would like to ask somebody who have a little experience about the otto switches.

I have a Plastic (first version) TM F16FLCS/TQS and I would like to upgrade the whole inside , but I need some information . Those switches are usable for this Joystick also?

I only have experience with the Cougar, Warthog and Hornet grips (hence the thread title ) 

From pictures it does look like the FLCS grip is similar internally to the Cougar however (except in plastic) and as such I would say it is unsuited for the OTTO button upgrade. See here why: https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/212272-tm-fa-18c-hornet-warthog-and-cougar-grips-disassembly-and-otto-switch-upgrade/#comment-3988007

 

12 hours ago, Repvez said:

The  control panel would be an MMJOY2 with arduino pro micro.  or do you know better softver for this panel? 

The most needed thing would be  the TQS erase head ministick. can somebody offer which  switch would be the best to replace it? linear X,Y axis and push button.

There is any hall effect sensor version from otto or other cheapest solution? The PS3 minijoy and PSP  doesn't fit in it.

like this:https://www.otto-controls.com/products/electromechanical-switches/transducers J2S2 or J4 ?

And also there would be nice If I find a good hall effect solution for all potentionmeter  in the TQS.

Regarding the TQS upgrade this is a good place to look https://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4324042/f16-flcs-tqs-original-usb-conversion

I don't think OTTO transducers will fit the throttle if a PS minijoy wont fit. You can see the J2 dimensions here and measure your TQS to check: https://www.otto-controls.com/-/media/products/electromechanical-switches/transducers/j2transducerswitch/J2-Transducers-Catalog-Page.ashx

 

12 hours ago, Repvez said:

And what about the Trigger there is any alternate to replace it ? I found this but it is also very expensive:

https://www.otto-controls.com/u2-016  or others 

Yes that trigger is a good candidate but It will not fit easily though - it is going to take major surgery on the grip.
I bought one off eBay a while ago and I'm currently gathering courage to try and install it in the Warthog grip.

 

12 hours ago, Repvez said:

And do you know what the differences  the T4 and T5 4 way switches except the push function?  because there is many of them on the site but they have different  part number but they look like to be all identical .

https://hu.mouser.com/c/electromechanical/switches/multi-directional-switches/

That is exactly the difference - the push functionality. I have already shared suitable part numbers in this thread for the various hats on the Warthog grip in this very thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/212272-tm-fa-18c-hornet-warthog-and-cougar-grips-disassembly-and-otto-switch-upgrade/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-4510989

The clue is simply to look at the manufacturer's datasheets to decipher the part number. You cannot use the picture on mouser as it is only there as a general reference - not specific for the particular part you're looking at. Here ya go:

OTTO T4 datasheet

OTTO T5 datasheet

OTTO mini trim button styles

 

 

[Repvez]

thank you your fast reply. I forgot to mentioned that I want to total modifying the whole joy. I want to change the gimbals and the throttle base also.

I will design  and 3d printed for a new case and I will  make a new PCB with pro micro.A only want to use the handle of the FLCS and TQS, but also modified to fit the switch in there. 

The purpose is that It will be a long life controller without any physical and electronic problem.

So if somebody has a good 3d model about the handles  than I would be happy to use it for this project. 

about the T4 and T5, yes I know that it is the different between them but I mean that  there are  lot of different part number for the T5 like :

T5-CK2212, T5-0079, T5-MB1212, T5-CJ1112 etc.. many of them  but they look like the same. and also the same for the T4 .

And I saw there is with Threaded body also  which I think would be easier to put in the place  than with electric tape or hot clue. Yes UI know there is need to design the Threaded hole also or a nut to hold .

[Burt]

Wow this is an awesome thread and wish Deadmeat was my neighbor. I have a question, I just got a new TM F-18 grip 2 days ago and noticed that the forward weapon position switch does not spring back to center. Will it through time spring back to center as it breaks in? Any advice ?

Thanks

[DeadMeat]

4 minutes ago, Burt said:

Wow this is an awesome thread and wish Deadmeat was my neighbor. I have a question, I just got a new TM F-18 grip 2 days ago and noticed that the forward weapon position switch does not spring back to center. Will it through time spring back to center as it breaks in? Any advice ?

Thanks

There seems to be some grips that have a manufacturing defect like that. Normal behaviour should be that it springs back no breaking in required. There's a few threads on it here. Returning it under warranty is probably your best choice

[Burt]

Yikes ! Okay I’ll get that process going but thats a shame. I bought it through Amazon so I don’t know if I should contact Thrustmaster or the Amazon Dealer.

Do you work on these for customers or just for yourself.

[DeadMeat]

2 hours ago, Burt said:

Do you work on these for customers or just for yourself.

This is just a personal project posted to inspire and inform.

[Spatz]

Very dangerous Thread - so much cool stuff need to leave and never comeback otherwise I will loose a lot of time and money to do all these customizations … too good

[Tankrat]

On 12/18/2020 at 6:37 PM, DeadMeat said:

Wiring is straight forward. Carefully unsolder the wires from the TM switches and solder them unto the OTTOs.

Only thing to note is that the wiring position is "opposite" on the OTTOs compared to stock.

 

Here is an example of how to match the OTTO switch contacts to the original TM TMS switch wiring: 

 

In the end it wont matter much (except for the ground wire), you can always remap inside DCS.

I'm Elite Dangerous player and found this thread while looking for a solution for CMS switch that went tits up.  I decided what the heck why not upgrade all the switches so I ordered all the switches and buttons for my Warthog joystick.  So far I have replaced The TMS, Trim, lever, pinky, index switches.  The DMS, CMS, and pickle button are on back order .

I have one question on the CMS push switch, which TM wire was connected to the Otto switch at pin 5?  

Thanks for posting the thread and enlightening me on my options instead of relying on TM support for out of warranty parts.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Tankrat

[DeadMeat]

On 8/25/2022 at 4:27 AM, Tankrat said:

I'm Elite Dangerous player and found this thread while looking for a solution for CMS switch that went tits up.  I decided what the heck why not upgrade all the switches so I ordered all the switches and buttons for my Warthog joystick.  So far I have replaced The TMS, Trim, lever, pinky, index switches.  The DMS, CMS, and pickle button are on back order .

I have one question on the CMS push switch, which TM wire was connected to the Otto switch at pin 5?  

Thanks for posting the thread and enlightening me on my options instead of relying on TM support for out of warranty parts.

 

CMS push has two wires, blue being the common wire and black being the push.
You can join the blue with the yellow common for the 4-way part of the switch.

[Tankrat]

On 8/28/2022 at 12:23 AM, DeadMeat said:

CMS push has two wires, blue being the common wire and black being the push.
You can join the blue with the yellow common for the 4-way part of the switch.

Thanks

[MAXsenna]

On 8/27/2022 at 10:23 PM, DeadMeat said:

CMS push has two wires, blue being the common wire and black being the push.
You can join the blue with the yellow common for the 4-way part of the switch.

Excellent thread! 

Is it possible to make the CMS push on the original Cougar grip? 

I'm in the process of swapping out the electronics from a Cougar grip to an old plastic TM F-22 grip. Why? Because I need it light to put on an MS FFB2 base. 

Cheers! 

[DeadMeat]

23 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Is it possible to make the CMS push on the original Cougar grip? 

Interesting project. It may be possible to do, but it will not be easy.

First you'd need to swap the CMS hat switch assembly to a 4-way + push using either a donor part from a Warthog grip, a very expensive commercial or mil spec OTTO hat switch + a custom hat, or 3d print yourself a switch assembly.

Then you'd need to electrically connect the push switch. You're short one input in the Cougar, so you could sacrifice another switch connection, like the first trigger switch detent.. 

[MAXsenna]

Interesting project. It may be possible to do, but it will not be easy.
First you'd need to swap the CMS hat switch assembly to a 4-way + push using either a donor part from a Warthog grip, a very expensive commercial or mil spec OTTO hat switch + a custom hat, or 3d print yourself a switch assembly.
Then you'd need to electrically connect the push switch. You're short one input in the Cougar, so you could sacrifice another switch connection, like the first trigger switch detent.. 

Worded myself a little vage. So the shift register in the Cougar grip doesn't support it, and I guess neither does the base.
Thanks for answering!

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[DeadMeat]

3 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

(..) So the shift register in the Cougar grip doesn't support it, and I guess neither does the base.

Well, I think there's still a few free inputs on the shift registers available, but then you'd have to solder the new CMS push switch straight onto appropriate the chip leg. The standard Cougar firmware is not expecting the extra switch however so that would have to be modded or the base PCB changed to something else supporting MMJoy or something home cooked and then anything's possible  That gets complex fast which is why I suggested simply repurposing an existing switch connection.

[MAXsenna]

@DeadMeat

That's what I thought. Later stage of the project! 

Thanks again! 

[Swiso]

@DeadMeat Great thread and infos !

One question regarding the TM F/A-18 Grip.

Do you think it could be possible to substitute the 8 (or 4) -way trim switch to a similar one that add the press function too, like in the F-15E ? 

Do you know the P/N  of the equivalent OTTO T4-0016 but with the PRESS option ?

I looked at OTTO website but struggling to find the right P/N for such a switch.

Thanks ! 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Swiso
added P/N picture.

[DeadMeat]

2 hours ago, Swiso said:

@DeadMeat Great thread and infos !

One question regarding the TM F/A-18 Grip.

Do you think it could be possible to substitute the 8 (or 4) -way trim switch to a similar one that add the press function too, like in the F-15E ? 

Do you know the P/N  of the equivalent OTTO T4-0016 but with the PRESS option ?

I looked at OTTO website but struggling to find the right P/N for such a switch.

Thanks ! 

 

Since the large T4 barely fit, the large T5 may not - if the switch body is any taller/wider. Same size = then it should fit..

I don't know what the part number of the real switch is. T5-0010 is in the F-15 (but which variant - and for which grip/switch?) according to parttarget.com so that is a candidate at least. According to OTTO, T5-0018 will give you the correct functionality and hat look, but it is missing the bezel with text.

The part number guide you're showing above is for the "mini" trim switches which are a bit smaller than the "large" trim switches you're looking for (think the large trim vs regular hat switches on the A10 grip). The minis are well documented and have meaningful part numbers but the large ones seem to be numbered sequentially or randomly. Documentation is very lackluster and they're generally not available for sale off the shelf.

[Swiso]

Never mind... I saw the size of the smaller T5 - 4-Way Plus Center Pushbutton Mini Trim, but its too small to fit in the FA18 grip trim site...

Thanks anyway.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Swiso
wrongly wrote FA16 instead of FA18