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Dunno if any of you guys have tested the 120 and the R77 side by side, its quite amazing the differences. Grab a mig and an F-15 with your buddy, and maddog at the same time from a line abreast position, then watch the missiles on the map. The R77 goes WAY further and WAY faster. When you do this you will see just how bad it is.

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My best ratio was when i flew the f15 most of the time. Why? Because it has a great radar, lots of missiles, fuel flares, chaff and speed. It Is the most dominant fighter in Lock On.

 

The AIM120 is a very effective missile but you need to be close to get a high kill ratio. 10miles is 20 km or thereabouts and is too far to expect to get lots of kills. 5-8 miles is much more effective.

 

 

Ice, you are right in every aspect about the F-15c in the hands of a good pilot. But 10nm or 20nkm is or should be 1/3 of the 120s lethal range. The whole purpose of the development of the 120s was to replace the AIM-7 and alow the Pilot to launch the 120, wait for it to go active then engage other targets or perform Basic Fighter Manuvers to avoid, evade, and attack other Bandits. The AIM-9 falls way short of its known range and the AIM-7 is easy to break its lock. The 120 even when downgraded still affords a pilot of fire and forget.

 

Yes 5 to 8nm you could expect a good Kill Ratio but now you expose your self to lethal Kill Zones and then the fight becomes "I got you and you got me" tactics.

 

For instance some of my stats on the 169th server do not represent all of my engagements at all. If the 120 was "Normal" I would put money on doubling the ammount of Air to Air Kills. On average in the 169th server I recieve 1 Kill per 4 engagements reguardless of the "Bandits skill"

 

I have seen and done some testing with R-77s and AIM-120s BIG BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

Migs and Sus have every advantage in this game, EOS, data link, the ET, and thrust to weaight ratios.

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The AIM120 is a very effective missile but you need to be close to get a high kill ratio. 10miles is 20 km or thereabouts and is too far to expect to get lots of kills. 5-8 miles is much more effective.

 

And such short-ranges are realistic weapon ranges for the F-15 right? ;)

 

I just ran some tests in 1.02 and the 120 does Mach 3.48 and both the ER and R-77 do Mach 3.5.

 

The velocity of the AIM-120 was reduced in Flaming Cliffs, hence the difference.

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Migs and Sus have every advantage in this game, EOS, data link, the ET, and thrust to weaight ratios.

 

Not every advantage. The F-15 radar is superior. The F-15 can carry the most fuel. The F-15 can identify its threats. (NCTR) The F-15 gives a much clearer picture on its TEWS display to build SA. The TEWS won't get flooded by a closeby friendly radar emitter. The F-15 can carry more Active missiles than the MiG and of course the Su can't at all. The F-15 is faster than the Su but left in the dust by the MiG.

 

But the main point is that radar missiles for ALL planes were broken by the chaff patch.

 

The velocity of the AIM-120 was reduced in Flaming Cliffs, hence the difference.

 

Plus the ER's velocity was increased. THAT (the combination of the two) is the difference.

 

And I would like to see the data that ED used to base those decisions on. Maybe EvilBivol can find out?

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Ice, you are right in every aspect about the F-15c in the hands of a good pilot. But 10nm or 20nkm is or should be 1/3 of the 120s lethal range.

 

This is not accurate by far. AMRAAM is best used between 10-15 miles, 20 mile shots leaves the target with some options to play outside the NEZ.

 

What we are observing here in LOMAC are seeker and missile speed deficit.

Even if the missiles are fixed dont expect your AMRAAM shots to have that great PK at 20 miles. 30 and 40 miles shots are likely to have PK well under 50%. That is of course if the pilot on the other side knows what hes doing.

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This is not accurate by far. AMRAAM is best used between 10-15 miles, 20 mile shots leaves the target with some options to play outside the NEZ.

 

This all depends on what the firing jet and the target jet are doing in regards to speed and altitude and aspect. You can be 5 miles back at 0 aspect and if a jet has 700 knts and you have 300 that target may get away.

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This is not accurate by far. AMRAAM is best used between 10-15 miles, 20 mile shots leaves the target with some options to play outside the NEZ.

 

What we are observing here in LOMAC are seeker and missile speed deficit.

Even if the missiles are fixed dont expect your AMRAAM shots to have that great PK at 20 miles. 30 and 40 miles shots are likely to have PK well under 50%. That is of course if the pilot on the other side knows what hes doing.

 

For head-on:

Some 20 nm shots should be VERY high Pk if we consider only energy.

15-25 nm should be Rtr ranges at high alts and NEZ should be very close to this depending on a number of factors.

 

I would say 15 nm is as close as you would EVER want to get if you are engaging high. 20 nm is probably a good mark to expect running inside the Rtr marker on your enemy's DLZ, and very close (or identical) to this is the real NEZ, where you would be screwed.....energy wise ;)

 

If you fly high, lets say 40 and the enemy ang 30, you give your missile good loft and it manages to aquire good lock on pitbull, that enemy, assuming he started 20nm away nose hot will be in DEEP shit. Lockon has this way wrong.

 

Imo the Rtr should be somewhere around 20 nm at really high altitudes for the amraams, and a bit further for ERs. But good luck scoring a kill with a SARH missile while the illuminating radar is 30nm+ away ;)

S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse'

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For instance some of my stats on the 169th server do not represent all of my engagements at all. If the 120 was "Normal" I would put money on doubling the ammount of Air to Air Kills. On average in the 169th server I recieve 1 Kill per 4 engagements reguardless of the "Bandits skill"

I put my money on a some of your kills being through the AMRAAM reaquiring targets itself and if this being the case of a 'real life model of an Aim120' your shots wouldn't be aquiring targets as easy as they do at the moment, so its give and take.;)

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Its well documented that the AMRAAM has killed a lot of bandits but out of interest is the engagement aspect ever mentioned, I should imagine there is a lower Pk engaging low flying bandits compared to High and Medium altitude bandits. If there is no difference because of the adv seeker tech then [how could this be/has this been] implemented into the game.

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AFAIK, the AMRAAM's seeker in lockon aquires to easily, the real 120 has a 54deg scan zone which scans 11deg a sec during a 9nm flight, within active range of a bandit that would look 'something' like

 

+/-2500 metre scan area at 9nm only covering +/-550 metres though, then 8nm +/-2200 metres covering +/-450 metres, 7nm +/-1900 metres covering +/-400 metres, 6nm +/-1600 metres covering +/-300 metres etc. The 120 in lockon has a huge scope compared to this.

 

When fired maddog without mid flight updates the real 120's Pk is reduced dramatically. Only when at pitbull should the AMRAAM have a 90% Pk.

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Thats right frostie, but beleive me if the background noise seeker resistence is fixed, its PK will be alot better than some blind long range maddogs. SO if it aquires too easely right now, doesnt realy matter. Its easy to spoof off.

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So you're not saying it acquires to easily but it acquires things it shouldn't at all. It used to be that both ARMs had a very, very wide feld of vision but when it was reduced, I did some testing and it didn't seem so unbelievable. Maybe more testing is needed. Have you done any?

 

 

When fired maddog without mid flight updates the real 120's Pk is reduced dramatically. Only when at pitbull should the AMRAAM have a 90% Pk.

 

That statement is entirely dependent upon launch range. A maddog at 7nm or closer shouldn't be much different from a guided shot as long as the launcher gives the missile a decent initial lead angle. And also a maddog from farther can be just as lethal as a guided shot depending on the maneuvering of the target.

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Similarly armed targets:

 

The other main engagement scenario is against other aircraft with fire-and-forget missiles like the Vympel R-77 (NATO AA-12 "Adder") ? perhaps MiG-29s, Su-27s or similar. In this case engagement is very much down to teamwork and could be described as "a game of chicken." Both flights of aircraft can fire their missiles at each other beyond visual range (BVR), but then face the problem that if they continue to track the target aircraft in order to provide mid-course updates for the missile's flight, they are also flying into their opponents' missiles. This is why teamwork is so important and advanced missiles with guidance systems with hand-off capability can help overcome this problem. This is also part of the reason why most tactics dictate holding on to missiles "until you see the whites of their eyes," or holding on to them for as long as possible. If the enemy fires missiles at maximum range, you will be able to defeat them easily without having surrendered valuable ordnance yourself. The other main tactic would be to sneak up behind the enemy aircraft and launch missiles without them noticing, giving the launching aircraft sufficient time to leave the danger zone of the enemy after launching. Even if the enemy detects the launch and turns around, the speed and possibly altitude it loses during the turn puts its missiles at an energy disadvantage which may be sufficient for the other aircraft to defeat it. This typically requires excellent ground-control intercept (GCI) or airborne radar (AWACS ? Airborne Warning and Control System) facilities in order to be successful.

 

R-77 COMPARSION with AIM-120

 

The missile, when compared to the AIM-120A and AIM-120B is considered superior in range by most experts in the field, and considered by some to be more maneuverable although this is still debated. The R-77 is considered inferior in electronic-related aspects such as ECCM, due to the general lag in Russia's electronics industry. The new R-77M will feature superior eletronics when compared older models however.

 

Range:

The R-77's main advantage over the AIM-120 AMRAAM, is in range and maneurability. The longer range is because the R-77 is a larger 200 mm vs 178 mm (8 vs 7 in), heavier 175 vs 150 kg (386 vs 335 lb) missile than the AMRAAM and contains more propellant. Like most AAM weapons, the claimed range is for a non-maneuvering target, at a high altitude, and probably on a head on aspect with a respectable closing rate. Lower altitudes, rear aspect, or maneuvering targets will all reduce this range, but the same applies to the AMRAAM.

 

The planned upgrade of the AIM-120, the AIM-120D, is to have a much greater (+50%) range and thus no-escape zone which will exceed that of the standard R-77 by a large margin. It is unknown how the AIM-120D will compare to the R-77M design in terms of range.

 

Maneuverability

The missile's maneuverability relies on the "potato masher" fins at the rear. Proponents claim the R-77's configuration provides superior maneuverability than the conventional deltas used on for example the AIM-120,. The weapon is purported to be able to handle a target maneuvering at up to 12g, a substantially higher rate than any manned fighter.

 

greets

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As far as g-force is concerned don't forget that the missile is also most of the time twice as fast as a fighter, so the the radius of a missile doing mach 2 with 12g is way bigger than a fighter doing a turn with 9g at mach 0.8. ;)

 

Most stories I read about AIM7 kills were in range between 10 to 3 nm, can't remember any number for AIM120 though.

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That looks like a copy and paste from some thing or things I've seen on the internet before MoGas. Got a source or two?

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yes, for example the 12G target chase limit is a joke. Never get caught quoting those sources in public. It reminds me shampoo comercials where they claim your hair will become xyz% more beautifull, how on earth they make those measurements?! :D

 

Furthermore R-77M may never come to fruition but a completely new and better missile. The 77M is old news from early 90's. I believe i have read somewhere plans for it have been shelved long ago.

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As far as g-force is concerned don't forget that the missile is also most of the time twice as fast as a fighter, so the the radius of a missile doing mach 2 with 12g is way bigger than a fighter doing a turn with 9g at mach 0.8. ;)

 

Most stories I read about AIM7 kills were in range between 10 to 3 nm, can't remember any number for AIM120 though.

 

Also missiles are usually defeated after they have burned up their motor. So any maneuvering in the vertical after motor burn out will drastically reduce the ability of that missile.

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That looks like a copy and paste from some thing or things I've seen on the internet before MoGas. Got a source or two?

 

You know Google?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM

 

Scroll down to "Similarly armed targets"

 

Second link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vympel_R-77

 

Scroll down to "Comparison with AIM-120 AMRAAM"

 

 

Hwg, that is sooooo lame.

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wikipedia is good to start from, but for those who want more than scratch the surface of this universe, it quicly starts to show its limitations.

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Hehe!

 

I put my money on a some of your kills being through the AMRAAM reaquiring targets itself and if this being the case of a 'real life model of an Aim120' your shots wouldn't be aquiring targets as easy as they do at the moment, so its give and take.;)

 

 

About 5% of my 120 shots are lucky "Reaquiring" Kills.

 

95% of my 120 Kills are from me flying in the Bandits "blind" spots.

 

Like I said b 4 the 120 will "GO ACTIVE" on a bud even in COMMAND GUIDANCE MODE even when he is well out of the supposed "Seakers" eye.

 

The "deceleration rate" is like the 120 has an air break.

 

20nm should be no problem for the 120 at all reguardless of what the opposition pilot does. The 120 should not be flapping arround in the air trying to get the best "Lead" point 2nm from the F-15. 17nm to bandit.

 

So another Question that never was answerd was "Why was the 120 downgraded" in the first place?

 

Thanks,

 

T:pilotfly:

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yes, for example the 12G target chase limit is a joke. Never get caught quoting those sources in public.
Page 59, R-77 (RVVAE) air to air missile, second paragraph. Source is "Soviet/Russian Aircraft Weapons since world war two" by Yefim Gordon.

 

We know for sure the RVV-AE target limit is 8 g. We don’t know (for sure) what the target limit is for R-77.

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I mean that limit measurement makes no sense at all since it requires a very specific range and aspect to be true, wich youll hardly ever match in combat. The missile will cut the turns, and the aparent targets motion from the missiles point of view will likely to be much slower.

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