Spiceman Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Thanks! Yes, to be honest I don't know whether my explanation explains it or not. I fly Cessnas, and I've certainly never seen that behavior, not that I could apply enough angle of bank that quickly to mimic that in a Cessna, although now I think next weekend I might just give it a test, lol. It'd be interesting to hear Victory 205's take, and tell me if I'm full of shit or not, lol. Former USN Avionics Tech VF-41 86-90, 93-95 VF-101 90-93 Heatblur Tomcat SME I9-9900K | Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra | 32GB DDR4 3200 | Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe | RTX 2070 Super | TM Throttle | VPC Warbird Base TM F-18 Stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callsign JoNay Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 (edited) At 3:11, a similar demonstration to my video. The ball moves accordingly with adverse yaw. I think this supports the findings in my video that the ball is behaving oppositely to how it should during roll in the DCS F-14. Edited June 7, 2021 by Callsign JoNay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartan111sqn Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 I guess a proppeller behaviour is different than in a jet. I though that in Tomcat the above indicator reflects the nose and the below one the tail of the plane... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draconus Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 (edited) http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/cockpit.html#air-combat-maneuver-panel Quote #14 - Turn-and-Slip indicator Indicator showing rate of turn around aircraft vertical axis. The upper part contains an electrically driven pointer, one needle deflection equalling a 360° turn in 4 minutes. The lower part contains an inclinometer with a ball suspended in a dampening fluid. Even NATOPS does not mention much more than that. Edited June 8, 2021 by draconus Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060 Rift S T16000M HOTAS FC3, F-14A/B, F-15E CA SC NTTR, PG, Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhntissbaby111 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 5 hours ago, Spartan111sqn said: I guess a proppeller behaviour is different than in a jet. I though that in Tomcat the above indicator reflects the nose and the below one the tail of the plane... I’m not 100% sure as I never flew the Tomcat in real life, but that is almost certainly wrong. The top part is turn rate, and the ball is the inclinometer (shows slips/skids). At least that’s how every other aircraft I know works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiceman Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 16 hours ago, Spartan111sqn said: I guess a proppeller behaviour is different than in a jet. I though that in Tomcat the above indicator reflects the nose and the below one the tail of the plane... Ooh, no, it’s the exact same instrument. Basic flight instruments haven’t changed in 80 years, and they’re the same whether you’re flying a Skyhawk, a Mustang, a Tomcat or a 747. Former USN Avionics Tech VF-41 86-90, 93-95 VF-101 90-93 Heatblur Tomcat SME I9-9900K | Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra | 32GB DDR4 3200 | Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe | RTX 2070 Super | TM Throttle | VPC Warbird Base TM F-18 Stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartan111sqn Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 I only have experience in sims flying viper and hornet..., so at the end I have to see the below needle and step on the ball, right?, so in navigation flying in Tomcat is needed to use rudder according to the instrument indication or rudder is only for high AoA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiceman Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 The Tomcat is more like a Warbird than it is a Hornet or a Viper as far as stick and rudder skills go. You need to use the rudder. You need to use the rudder as the primary means of lateral control (rudder first, augment with stick) above 20 units AOA. At the end of the day it’s a jet and not a prop, so you’re not going to need as much rudder as you would a Cessna or a Christen Eagle, but it becomes critical in certain flight regimes. 1 Former USN Avionics Tech VF-41 86-90, 93-95 VF-101 90-93 Heatblur Tomcat SME I9-9900K | Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra | 32GB DDR4 3200 | Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe | RTX 2070 Super | TM Throttle | VPC Warbird Base TM F-18 Stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golo Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 There is nothing wrong with how F-14 behaves in roll/yaw or with the turn and slip indicator. The F-14s roll control is provided by spoilers and diff. stabilator deflections (not ailerons) which causes F-14 to exhibit proverse yaw. Which means on for example left roll, the spoilers on left wing pop up reducing lift on this wing relative to right wing so the aircraft will roll left. But spoilers not only dump lift, they will also increase drag on the left wing so the the aircraft will yaw to the left, which means that the ball inside the slip indicator will move to the opposite side (right). OK that is initial roll into turn, now that we are established in bank we center the stick lowering the spoilers flush with left wing again cancelling the roll and by that also canceling the proverse yaw. Which means the aircraft want will swing its nose back due to yaw torque of the vert. stabs. Now it just behaves like any other aircraft and depending on speed and configuration it will need a little rudder into the turn to center the ball (more so when slow and configured for landing). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callsign JoNay Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 3 hours ago, Golo said: There is nothing wrong with how F-14 behaves in roll/yaw or with the turn and slip indicator. The F-14s roll control is provided by spoilers and diff. stabilator deflections (not ailerons) which causes F-14 to exhibit proverse yaw. Which means on for example left roll, the spoilers on left wing pop up reducing lift on this wing relative to right wing so the aircraft will roll left. But spoilers not only dump lift, they will also increase drag on the left wing so the the aircraft will yaw to the left, which means that the ball inside the slip indicator will move to the opposite side (right). OK that is initial roll into turn, now that we are established in bank we center the stick lowering the spoilers flush with left wing again cancelling the roll and by that also canceling the proverse yaw. Which means the aircraft want will swing its nose back due to yaw torque of the vert. stabs. Now it just behaves like any other aircraft and depending on speed and configuration it will need a little rudder into the turn to center the ball (more so when slow and configured for landing). It's not doing that in DCS World though. Watch my video again. I align the wing symbol with the peak of a mountain, roll back and fourth and each time there is adverse yaw present, not proverse. It's right there to see in slow motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayhawk1971 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) Edited June 9, 2021 by Jayhawk1971 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golo Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said: roll back and fourth What exactly do you think you are achieving by doing that? You will figure out exactly nothing looking at the indicator, only thing you are doing is oversaturating it, so it shows BS. Roll smoothly once to either side up to 60° and observe the ball (it will move opposite of direction of the roll) then rollout wings level and try again. Edit: I can see from your video at 07s on your first left roll that the ball moves opposite as it should. Edited June 9, 2021 by Golo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callsign JoNay Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 23 minutes ago, Golo said: What exactly do you think you are achieving by doing that? You will figure out exactly nothing looking at the indicator, only thing you are doing is oversaturating it, so it shows BS. Roll smoothly once to either side up to 60° and observe the ball (it will move opposite of direction of the roll) then rollout wings level and try again. Edit: I can see from your video at 07s on your first left roll that the ball moves opposite as it should. Ignore the ball and look out the window. You said the F-14 should generate proverse yaw in roll onset because of the wing spoiler. It does not do that in DCS. It's adverse yaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callsign JoNay Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jayhawk1971 said: Yeah so you can see it in that video too. Roll to the right, the nose yaws to the left. (Slip/Adverse Yaw). But the ball also goes left. Etc. Edit: Oh I should've kept watching. I see now what's going on. I'm using the wing symbol as my reference but I should be using the datum instead. Edited June 9, 2021 by Callsign JoNay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golo Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Callsign JoNay said: Edit: Oh I should've kept watching. I see now what's going on. I'm using the wing symbol as my reference but I should be using the datum instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callsign JoNay Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 Good lord. I have to re-wire all my muscle memory now. Thanks for setting me straight guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremspropeller Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said: Ignore the ball and look out the window. This. So ein Feuerball, JUNGE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacarino111 Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said: It's not doing that in DCS World though. Watch my video again. I align the wing symbol with the peak of a mountain, roll back and fourth and each time there is adverse yaw present, not proverse. It's right there to see in slow motion. HI. What you see in your video moving adverse to the roll, the bars with a dot in the middle (in the HUD) is not where the longitudinal axis is pointing at: it is slightly under the axis, so as you roll left, the upper posrtion of the HUD moves CCW/to the left and the lower portion, also CCW but to the right, creating the effect that there is an adverse yaw, but you should look at a place between the wing mark and the gun cross, witch is the correct axis projection. I hope I made myself clear! Saca111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain_dalan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 On 6/9/2021 at 8:05 AM, Spartan111sqn said: I only have experience in sims flying viper and hornet..., so at the end I have to see the below needle and step on the ball, right?, so in navigation flying in Tomcat is needed to use rudder according to the instrument indication or rudder is only for high AoA? Ideally you always add rudder inputs to your rolls, and during high performance non-vertical turns, rudder inputs are must to avoid wing drop. Which though a year late (not that i could do it at the time) brings me to one of the most important reasons why coordinating is tactically important...... it's practically the only way to ride the stall, or max-perform you plane. Look at the AoA values bellow (true degrees), you can't do this without proper rudder inputs. Now, this doesn't mean you should always do these bat-turns, but there are times when they are needed. And yes, the main and aux flaps weren't dropped during these tests, only maneuver flaps on auto. Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westr Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 I have a set of VKB mk IV pedals, I have always felt something is not right with rudder setup in dcs. For example to centre the ball it feels like my input needs to be non-existent. If i step on rudder in the direction i'm turning its always to much despite being the most minute of inputs. I probably centre the ball better in a turn by not touching the pedals, Its almost like I have auto rudder applied in the sim but I don't. I've tried applying curve but that does not help. If i start applying dead zone I loose precision. RYZEN 7 3700X Running at 4.35 GHz NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080Ti 32gb DDR4 RAM @3200 MHz Oculus CV1 NvME 970 EVO TM Warthog Stick & Throttle plus 11" extension. VKB T-Rudder MKIV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 6 hours ago, westr said: I have a set of VKB mk IV pedals, I have always felt something is not right with rudder setup in dcs. For example to centre the ball it feels like my input needs to be non-existent. If i step on rudder in the direction i'm turning its always to much despite being the most minute of inputs. I probably centre the ball better in a turn by not touching the pedals, Its almost like I have auto rudder applied in the sim but I don't. I've tried applying curve but that does not help. If i start applying dead zone I loose precision. Use what is necessary. Most DCS aircraft don't need rudder for less than a standard rate coordinated turn, including the F14. DCS VoiceAttack Profiles | My Mods and Utilities on ED User Files | DiCE: DCS Integrated Countermeasure Editor DCS Update Witching Utility | DCS-ExportScripts for Stream Deck Community Github Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callsign JoNay Posted March 6, 2022 Share Posted March 6, 2022 10 hours ago, westr said: I probably centre the ball better in a turn by not touching the pedals. I too have mostly given up trying to coordinate turns during cruise speeds. Ever since they reworked the slip ball, its all over the place for me. I usually just agitate the ball even more if I try to coordinate with rudder. Most of my rudder use is reserved for slow speed or high alpha rolling now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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