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Has module been abandoned by Devs?


VampireNZ

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When did this feeling of self-justice become the new 'norm' towards developers? Stuff happens. Developers have lives too, and they can be working behind the scenes towards bigger updates. They're nearing release on their Kiowa and it would make sense for them to be focusing more. Project management is very tricky in this community and I respect those that try to adhere to the public as well as managing everything on the team, from peoples' roles and the modules themselves.

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When did this feeling of self-justice become the new 'norm' towards developers? Stuff happens. Developers have lives too, and they can be working behind the scenes towards bigger updates. They're nearing release on their Kiowa and it would make sense for them to be focusing more. Project management is very tricky in this community and I respect those that try to adhere to the public as well as managing everything on the team, from peoples' roles and the modules themselves.
I'm investing my hard earned money so I have reasonable expectations. I have no animosity towards these devs at all. I'm going to wait next time before I invest. That's all I'm saying.

 

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Well I'm not investing in the Kiowa until I see some reviews of it AND the Gazelle is indeed given the much needed fixing it requires. Time will tell but I will remain cautiously optimistic in the meantime.

 

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I will do the same. Kiowa or not, first I want to see that the Gazelle gets the long-needed attention it needs.

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Yes I have to agree. From a developer's perspective, perhaps doing the Kiowa first and then coming back to the Gazelle makes sense.

 

From the consumer's perspective it makes no sense at all. I'm waiting on the Gazelle before buying the Kiowa.

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When did this feeling of self-justice become the new 'norm' towards developers? Stuff happens. Developers have lives too, and they can be working behind the scenes towards bigger updates. They're nearing release on their Kiowa and it would make sense for them to be focusing more. Project management is very tricky in this community and I respect those that try to adhere to the public as well as managing everything on the team, from peoples' roles and the modules themselves.

I certainly wish the developers success in their endeavours. I hope the Kiowa is fantastic and the Gazelle is made into the module everyone wants it to be. I have no axe to grind. I came to the Polychop forums a few days ago, interested in the Gazelle, but knowing nothing about any of the modules.


Edited by keith55
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There is also this document.

 

That is a very interesting read, but for the most part the section about the flight model is mostly describing extreme situations and I doubt that normal reallife pilots can give much feedback about that, because they usually do not fly dangerous maneuvers. I mean we would probably have to ask testpilots or engineers about the flight model in extreme situations. So I would not 100% agree with the following conclusion from the document:

 

PolyChop have repeatedly claimed that their flight model is verified by pilots with thousands of hours of experience and is totally realistic. We find this very difficult to believe, and we’re going to provide evidence.
However, I have to agree with the part in the document, that mentions the weird behavior, when you change the position of your collective and the Gazelle banks in an unnatural way. The transition from one bank angle to another feels very clipped and very sudden in that situation, unless there is some fly-by-wire-mechanics going on that I am not aware of. Still I believe the roll behavior needs some fixes in general. And the fall behavior might also needs some fixes like the document mentions.

Other than that the flight model feels very solid for an Advanced Flight Model (AFM) imo. It is behaving pretty much the way I would expect from a light helicopter. Btw. its relatively small mass might be the reason, why there is almost no VRS for the Gazelle. I am not quite sure about that.


Edited by Tiramisu
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Well they recently fixed many of the various bugs in that document and spent a month or so doing it, so I'd say not abandoned. They also said they will redo the FM based on what they learned with the kiowa.

 

But the Kiowa is understandably their current priority. And that is what it is.

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For me, these posts from a helicopter flight instructor persuaded me that the FM model of the Gazelle is not up to the standard of typical DCS modules. There is also this document.

 

"these posts" deleted ? That link not working for me.

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That is a very interesting read, but for the most part the section about the flight model is mostly describing extreme situations and I doubt that normal reallife pilots can give much feedback about that, because they usually do not fly dangerous maneuvers.

 

Although the Gazelle FM improved greatly in Q1 2018 it still has errors in some basic control linkages i.e. between collective input and pitch, roll, yaw, etc.

 

You don't need to fly to the limits of the flight envelope to find issues.

 

I have 154hours of real flight in the Gazelle and 3000h + in other helicopters.

I am helicopter instructor since 15 years on French helicopters.

 

The DCS Gazelle has big problems considering FM.

 

First of all:

A steady cyclic displacement on the right or the left side doesn't correspond to a roll angle of X degrees like it is IRL. In DCS the Gazelle never stop rolling until fly on the back... IRL if you displace the cyclic x cm on the right, you will have a x degrees roll angle (it's a little bit simplified but too hard to explain in English for me)

Just compare the MI8 and the Gazelle in DCS. Fly both at 120km/h (or the speed you want) and displace your stick 3cm on the right or left and maintain it. Just look at the behavior of your helicopter ������. The MI8 is realistic, the Gazelle is....

 

I agree with comments on the VRS in DCS. If it was like that in real life I wouldn't be able to write a comment on Ed's forum: I would be dead.

 

Sorry for my English.

There are some other weird things on the FM of the DCS Gazelle. I explained all of them to Polychop guys. They are working on it.... Or they are working on the next chopper and maybe... Maybe one day they will work again on the Gazelle.

 

I am angry because Polychop never made a statement on the problem of their FM. They know all the mistakes they've done thanks to real pilots feedbacks but they don't speak about it and still earn money based on a lie.

 

Some guys tell that ALAT pilots were happy with the FM when testing the Gazelle on DCS.

It's normal because when you test a Sim for the first time when you are also a real pilot, you miss the real sensation of flight that you are used to. And you pilot the Sim in response to the instant behavior of the module. I made the same mistake during the first 2 hours of flight with the Gazelle. I was like a child when I saw the cockpit for the first time, it was like 15 years ago when I learnt to fly in ALAT school at Dax. But passing the first 2 hours trying to apply curves on axes to have a realistic feeling, I never succeeded to reach a realistic FM. Then I searched for the mistakes and I have discovered some.

After that I performed a test flight with Polychop guys and now we are waiting for the new FM. Perhaps one day. Fingers crossed.

 

Debate on the current Gazelle FM is somewhat moot as Polychop have acknowledged the problem and plan to eventually re-code the FM from afresh.

 

 

It is behaving pretty much the way I would expect from a light helicopter. Btw. its relatively small mass might be the reason, why there is almost no VRS for the Gazelle. I am not quite sure about that.

 

There seems to be a general agreement among RL helicopter pilots that entering VRS in DCS is too easy in other modules.

 

The Gazelle does enter VRS (an accelerated descent rate) but it's always possible to "power out" of the vortex with increased collective i.e. there's no need to translate to breakout of the vortex.

 

AFAIK the ease/risk of entering a VRS is related to aircraft weight and rotor diameter.

 

The Gazelle does't appear to standout from other helicopters and looks similar to the Huey.

 

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Edited by Ramsay

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It would be shameful to abandon such an European machine!

 

 

it will not be abandoned.

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  • 1 month later...

As long as Polychop are serious about returning to the Gazelle after the Kiowa, and developing a new flight model that is in line with the quality of the other DCS helicopter offerings, they'll have my business.

 

I don't expect perfect, but I do expect accurate. While the current Gazelle flies nicely and is otherwise a great aircraft, the flight model doesn't stand any scrutiny.

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We need solid and reasonable time frames for the Gaz update and the Kiowa release. These endless years of being strung along are F-ing ridiculous.

 

Even though I understand your sentiment we simply can and will not set a release date on anything. The past has shown that with a base platform this fluid, being updated almost weekly without knowing ahead of time what will be changed, predicting an accurate timeframe is simply impossible. Both 3rd party developers and ED have shown it is incredibly hard to set a release date for anything on this platform as we have to adapt to the ever changing nature of the base engine. As far as the Kiowa Warrior module goes, it will be released in 2020 as a feature complete module, no early access. The live streams are a good indication on how far along the development process is and also shows what still needs to be worked on.

 

Gazelle bugfixes are not tied to the Kiowa Warrior module development process, they are continiously being worked on by a separate team, dedicated to the Gazelle module and released when tested and done. Any flight model related issues sadly are still tied to the development process of the Kiowa Warrior module however as the newly developed flight model code will be used for the Gazelle as well. As the flight model code is still actively being developed for the Kiowa Warrior, as in, it is not finished yet, this is somethig that will take some more time.

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  • 1 month later...

Based on the Gazelle, I won't be rushing to buy the Kiowa. It's possible the flight model will be in a different league to the Gazelle and if it is then due consideration will be given but honestly... the Gazelle does not feel in any way like a real helicopter. The "we had real pilots test our flight model" line was trotted out by Veao about the Hawk.... Sorry guys but you can't expect punters to shelve out good money for new modules if the old ones are so bad and you are in denial. Some modules in DCS "feel" realistic, the Gazelle does not.

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Unpopular opinion: I don't care even if KW flies like the gazelle, still a day one purchase for me. Regardless of how people feel the gazelle should be vs what the module is, I've enjoyed flying it. It's a fun bird to mess around with.

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How would you know, do you have any real world experience?

 

I think it comes to lack of verisimilitude. Gazelle doesn't fly the way people feel it should, I've seen neither hard data nor experience to back it up

 

The bottom line for me is do I enjoy flying the gazelle? Yes I do

It's fun. Even if it's not 100% realistic, I don't have the frame of reference to tell. I know people fail to understand my former job in the army, so I won't presume to be an expert in the aircraft of some other nations military.

 

I have fun with it, that matters to me

 

I also know the SMEs consulted on the KW are passionate about seeing their equipment faithfully recreated. I understand that fully, I've spent a lot of time discussing my equipment with chizh and Nick grey, both of whom were graciously receptive. I have former colleagues who changed career paths and flew the KW. We all kinda grew apart, but thru them I sort of feel a fondness to the is that I don't for other army aviation. Call me crazy, when I watch the video of kiowas in Kandahar, even tho it doesn't reflect my experience in the army, I do find myself missing being deployed.

 

For that, I trust the kw is in good hands. I look forward to flying it

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Hi!

How would you know, do you have any real world experience?

I can tell.

 

And I can point to some discussions with RL helicopter pilot who flew on Gazelle. I do fly from time to time on Gazelle, not as pilot (probably someday I will be able to y it) but enought to say that the real thing is nothing like in game.

 

I still hope for (serious) enhencements. So far, DCS Gazelle is far from a real helicopter behavior. Even not like an electric model.

 

Regards.

 

 

EDIT: I do only speak about FM. Avionics and pit are nicely done!


Edited by Dee-Jay
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...

 

I also know the SMEs consulted on the KW are passionate about seeing their equipment faithfully recreated.....

 

For that, I trust the kw is in good hands. I look forward to flying it

 

Interestingly watching one of the latest KW vids the chap was explaining how no sim really 'feels' right, or similar to the actual aircraft, which is absolutely true and all professional flight sims have their own 'sim-isms' which vary from the actual aircraft.

 

I think this really means the devs give the SME's what they think they want in terms of handling etc. within their abilities to program flight dynamics, which the SME's test and just say well nothing 'feels' like the real aircraft anyway so hey this is pretty close - goes up and down, left and right, is 'fun' (which I see is all a lot of ppl in this thread really care about anyway, which is fine) etc...lets get these systems all showing the right indications cause that is a 1 or 0 type deal.

So you end up with something like the Gazelle...

 

If I was a fan of the Kiowa I would be stoked to get another zippy little RC helicopter in DCS too, but I am very happy to wait for the Mi-24. :thumbup:

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Well as a pilot DCS comes pretty damn close to the real thing. If DCS simulates turbulence properly and humidity we would see even better immersion. The issue with sins and IRL is there are no forces acting upon your body. So you are missing allot of input the aircraft would give you. Anyways it’s physics , it’s numbers, you absolutely can make a sim act exactly as it would IRL. It will never feel right because they can’t simulate forces acting on your body.

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How would you know, do you have any real world experience?

That's a point but let's just turn this around - can any real world pilots confirm the Gazelle performs up to spec? So far I haven't seen that.

 

Torque effects, ground effect, Vortex ring state - all seems to be needing improvements. There's lots of videos around showing this - maybe you could confirm with a real pilot if it seems reasonable?

 

 

 

That said they mentioned they will work on it after Kiowa so I'll just sit there and hold my breath.

 

Kiowa sure looks awesome so I will reserve my purchase until it's confirmed by real pilots that the FM is up to standard without major glitches. Should be doable though to find real pilots confirming the flight model is close to on spot, at least in the important categories. If so it will definitely be an amazing module from what I have seen.

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It's well known and acknowledged by Poly that the Gazelle has issues, most of these supposedly stem from core engine changes ED have implemented in recent years (entirely possible). The Kiowa is supposed to be a ground up build based on the modern engine standards. Many of these core codings will then be retroactively ported to the Gazelle. In other words they have to rewrite the flight dynamics anyway, so we have to wait, Kiowa gets it first so they can generate revenue then the Gazelle gets it.

 

So TLDR

 

No, the Gazelle is not right. This is an acknowledged fact.

Yes, the Kiowa should be much better fresh off the line.

No, the Gazelle has not been abandoned and will receive the new mechanics.

 

They have a sticky with all this, you know.

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