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On the subject of VR Improvements...


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On 1/16/2022 at 1:29 PM, chrisnlnz said:

I was looking to upgrade my 1080ti to a 3070ti (opportunity with a good price at the moment). Now I've just seen that DCS in VR is pretty horrible when it comes to VRAM consumption, see also more-or-less dead thread:

My 1080ti has 11 GB of VRAM whereas the 3070ti only has 8GB. In all other respects the 3070ti should be a big upgrade over the 1080ti, but will the 8GB be problematic with DCS apparently being a VRAM sink? I run a Reverb G2. 3080+ are not really an option due to huge price difference, in which case I'll wait with any upgrade.

 

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I think the VRAM requirements are a bit overblown, I run with a 3080ti (12gb) and performance is great with an 8kx. Yes you can overwhelm the vram if you crank everything to the max. So don’t do that? That said I would not under any circumstances but a 3070ti with only 8gb. For the same or less money get a used 2080ti with 11gb.

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On 5/5/2022 at 12:28 PM, ackattacker said:

I think the VRAM requirements are a bit overblown, I run with a 3080ti (12gb) and performance is great with an 8kx. Yes you can overwhelm the vram if you crank everything to the max. So don’t do that? That said I would not under any circumstances but a 3070ti with only 8gb. For the same or less money get a used 2080ti with 11gb.

Totally agree, had some frame stuttering because of VRAM overflow with a 3070. Now with a 3080 12GB DCS runs great with Quest 2 maxed out and 2x MSAA.

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The issues with VRAM on DCS are real but with 10-12gb the problems usually appear with the Hind and Apache, those two cockpits, while looking great, are poorly optimized on triangles and textures, for example the Apache cockpits has three times the polygon count of the Viper even looking much more simple.

The more strange thing is that the Tomcat cockpit has a greater polygon count and the textures are the measuring bar on DCS and, with all, it runs way better


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I haven't seen much of a VR improvement in DCS since I bought a Quest 2 roughly about a year ago now. I just went from a 1080 to a 3080 Ti and no offense but I'm getting roughly same performance, perhaps a little better with the same settings. Marianas map must be broken for VR because launching even with just my aircraft on that map is a .5 FPS slideshow. Syria and PG are definitely better however I see roughly the same performance with a 3080 Ti as I did with my 1080. That's not the case if I run out of VR where I literally cannot enable any regular settings to bog the fps down and I use a 3440x1440 UW monitor. Compared to other VR titles where I saw massive improvements DCS runs pretty terribly. PC is no slouch, Ryzen 7 5800X, 64gb DDR4 3200 ram, DCS on raid 0 SSD array.

I looked at the original post date from Nineline and at roughly almost 3 years ago, I haven't seen many improvements to be honest.

 

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39 minutes ago, Insanatrix said:

I haven't seen much of a VR improvement in DCS since I bought a Quest 2 roughly about a year ago now. I just went from a 1080 to a 3080 Ti and no offense but I'm getting roughly same performance, perhaps a little better with the same settings. Marianas map must be broken for VR because launching even with just my aircraft on that map is a .5 FPS slideshow. Syria and PG are definitely better however I see roughly the same performance with a 3080 Ti as I did with my 1080. That's not the case if I run out of VR where I literally cannot enable any regular settings to bog the fps down and I use a 3440x1440 UW monitor. Compared to other VR titles where I saw massive improvements DCS runs pretty terribly. PC is no slouch, Ryzen 7 5800X, 64gb DDR4 3200 ram, DCS on raid 0 SSD array.

I looked at the original post date from Nineline and at roughly almost 3 years ago, I haven't seen many improvements to be honest.

 

Have you done tests to find out where your bottle neck is occurring?

If flying VR is using more CPU and you are bound by your CPU, then obtaining a higher performance GPU won't do anything unfortunately. 

As for improvements, have you checked out OpenXR? I run a HP Reverb and the difference between running via SteamVR vs OpenXR is night and day. I'm not sure whether this is an option for the Quest or not but in my situation, while my frames did not improve with OpenXR, detail and more important smoothness did. My system looks smoother with 30FPS in OpenXR than 45FPS in SteamVR.

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19 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

Have you done tests to find out where your bottle neck is occurring?

If flying VR is using more CPU and you are bound by your CPU, then obtaining a higher performance GPU won't do anything unfortunately. 

As for improvements, have you checked out OpenXR? I run a HP Reverb and the difference between running via SteamVR vs OpenXR is night and day. I'm not sure whether this is an option for the Quest or not but in my situation, while my frames did not improve with OpenXR, detail and more important smoothness did. My system looks smoother with 30FPS in OpenXR than 45FPS in SteamVR.

 

Should be using OpenXR via the oculus app. It's not using SteamVR. 5800X would hardly be a bottleneck it's "one" of the faster CPU's out there. My point was that nothing about my system "should" be considered a bottleneck to the degree that I have experienced. It's rather the software, not the hardware. I think it's self admittedly adhoc implementation in order to provide the ability to use VR but you hear about impending improvements and better API's being implemented and never seeing them come to light. as I said it's been 3 years since the original post and I've not seen that marked of an improvement in the year that I've had a VR headset. 

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I believe that you'll be using the oculus runtimes but not open composite (openxr), it can be implemented for the quest but how much performance gain they is I'm not sure. As mentioned above, it's much smoother than steamvr, particularly at lower framerates.

That aside, there is something wrong with your setup, I can get 45-50+fps on Marianas free flight and up to 85fps on Caucasus (depending on settings). You shouldn't have any issues with your hardware to run DCS in VR 🙂

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5 hours ago, Insanatrix said:

 

5800X would hardly be a bottleneck it's "one" of the faster CPU's out there. My point was that nothing about my system "should" be considered a bottleneck to the degree that I have experienced. It's rather the software, not the hardware.

I'm not stating that it's not the software at all. DCS is primarily single thread so doesn't use the advantage of the newer multi-thread chipsets. As such - DCS will bottleneck either at a CPU level or a GPU level depending on the settings, on the missions / scripts running, etc regardless of how good your hardware is. 

I find that I am bound by CPU bottlenecking instead of GPU and I'm only running a 2080S.  However I can change this and be GPU bottlenecked if I up my graphic settings.  With this information I have been able to make modifications to get acceptable performance on my HP reverb.

The fact that you upgraded a graphics card and saw no performance improvements at all is an indication that it is quite plausible you could be CPU bound by something (with the current settings and/or scripts that are running, etc). I would suggest monitoring both the GPU and CPU to see whether there is a single thread that is running at capacity (100%) that is causing the lack of performance improvements you are expecting. 

Unfortunately due to the current way DCS is implemented (single thread bound excluding audio) - you can get the highest performing PC and still have a poor experience if you do not optimize your system and DCS correctly. The first point of detecting where the problem lies comes down to determining what is getting maxed out on your system. CPU or GPU. If it's CPU you can play with GPU settings all you want and you won't see improvements to performance. Once you have positively confirmed where the restriction is causing performance then you can narrow down where to search for the issue.

There are plenty of threads in here on the issues and what you can search for depending on where the bottleneck is occurring. 

As for the 3 years with no improvements - I do believe I saw somewhere (or maybe on hoggit) 9line let something slip that we can expect multithreading sometime this year all going well. If so - this could be a game changer (excuse the pun) if the issue is CPU related.

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10 hours ago, Insanatrix said:

 

Should be using OpenXR via the oculus app. It's not using SteamVR. 5800X would hardly be a bottleneck it's "one" of the faster CPU's out there. My point was that nothing about my system "should" be considered a bottleneck to the degree that I have experienced. It's rather the software, not the hardware. I think it's self admittedly adhoc implementation in order to provide the ability to use VR but you hear about impending improvements and better API's being implemented and never seeing them come to light. as I said it's been 3 years since the original post and I've not seen that marked of an improvement in the year that I've had a VR headset. 

Every system has a "bottleneck" at some point. I.e it all goes as fast aas the slowest component/process. If this wasn't the cse then we would all have unlimited fps.  The trick is to balance your settings to make the best available of your resources as discussed by @Dangerzone

Also really, really important in DCS VR to make sure that you reduce background load on the CPU. All those updaters and background apps really can affect DCS. If you haven't killed these off then do so, you have gains to make as your description clearly shows you were/are CPU bound.

I have seen VR improvements over the last 2-3 years. The game has also been updated considerably in this time too, which has also requires more resources so its a balancing act but ultimately, with all performance PC stuff the hardware doesn't actually get much older in 2-3 years. The software just gets newer.

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16 hours ago, edmuss said:

I believe that you'll be using the oculus runtimes but not open composite (openxr), it can be implemented for the quest but how much performance gain they is I'm not sure. As mentioned above, it's much smoother than steamvr, particularly at lower framerates.

That aside, there is something wrong with your setup, I can get 45-50+fps on Marianas free flight and up to 85fps on Caucasus (depending on settings). You shouldn't have any issues with your hardware to run DCS in VR 🙂

 

I'm not sure there's a non hacky way to use purely openxr outside of the oculus app and what I read say's it's worse than just using the native app. I would be willing to say something was wrong with my setup if it wasn't just DCS, in VR, that was the issue. DCS outside of VR runs fine or relatively fine. Everything else in VR, fine. DCS in VR and it chugs. 

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Tweeking your system settings to fully use your hardware to its maximum potential is very time consuming and complex.  Consider this diagram:

image.png

Analyzing your frame times for both CPU and GPU for a specific level of details/quality will help you see if the CPU is the bottleneck.  When setting graphics quality level, we all try to stay within an acceptable framerate for most of the time.  In order to achieve this, we set things up in order to have the CPU frametime average at a certain level that will be equal or bellow what it takes to generate the target FPS.

The GPU generate frames from data provided by your CPU.  Ideally, you need the CPU frametime to be the same or lower than the GPU frametime in order to fully use the potential of your GPU.  In this situation, you are GPU limited and it is what most of us experience in VR as it is very demanding to pump out all those pixels in such large amount.  We tweak settings for countless hours in order to be in this situation where our GPU is being used to the maximum.  At one point, you may increase the performance of your CPU by overclocking or upgrading but eventually, it is the GPU that will not keep up.  At that point, not matter how low your CPU frame time is, the average FPS will not change much.  If you experience very high peaks in your CPU frametime, then it might be helpful to consider an upgrade but It will not increase your GPU`s performance.  It might give you a more stable framerate though.

You have to analyze what is your particular situation by monitoring your CPU and GPU frametime.  fpsVR is a great tool for this.  Understanding where your bottleneck is, will guide you as to where to tweek or adjust settings.  Detailed framerate datad displayed by DCS can also help understand which setting or aspect of a particular mission is consuming too much CPU resources.

 


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  • 2 weeks later...
  • ED Team
5 minutes ago, Spectrum48k said:

3 years later and heavy dark clouds still flicker and ED are still afraid to mention it.

A little over dramatic but ok,

are you using ultra clouds? 

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Hi @BIGNEWY Ultra clouds offer a nearly 4ms impact on GPU frame time, almost double that of high and standard, and even then there is still aliasing.  Using them in their current form VR is not a realistic solution to the problem to compensate you would have to significantly compromise the pixel count (introducing other effects which are as bad or worse, depending on the eye of the beholder).

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Just now, speed-of-heat said:

Hi @BIGNEWY Ultra clouds offer a nearly 4ms impact on GPU frame time, almost double that of high and standard, and even then there is still aliasing.  Using them in their current form VR is not a realistic solution to the problem to compensate you would have to significantly compromise the pixel count (introducing other effects which are as bad or worse, depending on the eye of the beholder).

yes higher quality will always result in less performance, the trick is finding a good balance. 

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@BIGNEWYthe problem is there isn't a good balance between visual quality and performance, High comes in at half the performance cost of ultra but exponentially worse aliasing ... and anything that costs 4ms of GPU time is not realistic in VR that's a just under 1/6th of your total frame time budget for 45FPS ...

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Well, i think that this official position from ED, get defensive and tell us that this is the way to go...

Theres no place for error, no "We know that right now its not working well, we have plans to try a different approach" or anything like that, just get defensive and trying to convince the community that this is how it should work and "hey, look at new rainbow!", thats what angers me about ED, zero transparency and zero self criticism, just this its how its done and look at the new thing i made

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  • ED Team
1 minute ago, 5ephir0th said:

Well, i think that this official position from ED, get defensive and tell us that this is the way to go...

Theres no place for error, no "We know that right now its not working well, we have plans to try a different approach" or anything like that, just get defensive and trying to convince the community that this is how it should work and "hey, look at new rainbow!", thats what angers me about ED, zero transparency and zero self criticism, just this its how its done and look at the new thing i made

We check as many issues as we can when they are reported to us, if we can not reproduce the problem we ask other team members to check to see if they can verify an issue. 

If being defensive is answering with our own observations then I am sorry you dont like it. 

As for transparency we post news when we have it to share, the days of old of sharing plans early are gone, to many people become upset and vocal if time lines are stretched or changed. 

I will pass on your feedback to the team, as I always do even with negative feedback.   

thank you

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8 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

We check as many issues as we can when they are reported to us, if we can not reproduce the problem we ask other team members to check to see if they can verify an issue. 

If being defensive is answering with our own observations then I am sorry you dont like it. 

As for transparency we post news when we have it to share, the days of old of sharing plans early are gone, to many people become upset and vocal if time lines are stretched or changed. 

I will pass on your feedback to the team, as I always do even with negative feedback.   

thank you

No, dont get me wrong, theres no place im saying that you guys are not working, i want to think it´s just the way you (not you, but ED) manage the PR.

There is a problem with the clouds LOD on VR, theres no need of track, it´s the way the clouds are rendered, it happen to us all, lesser on ultra settings but still there, horrible on high are below, we know it, ED knows it, its just the way its designed, the same as the shadows LOD, and all the response we get its "use this killer level of detail (and still happen)", you have to understand us, the users.

Yes, i know about sharing the plans early, but this it´s not a new items, its about fixing one already released that not has progressed in more than a year

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  • ED Team

Our weather plans are still in progress and we have more features to come, so we still have an element of work in progress here. Can they be improved? for sure and the team are always looking for ways to enhance our effects.

I know it requires a lot of patience on your part as we do have long development periods but that allows us to stay in business and profitable, we are not as large as some companies and our team are working as hard and fast as they can.

Regarding the clouds, ultra is always going to be the best option for best quality, below that the team have tweaked them so performance is the consideration. My personal opinion is that in ultra with the reverb G2 I dont have any issue, or dont notice the shimmer enough for it to worry my own preference, but I have passed on your feedback, hopefully with the new additions to the clouds in the future it wont be as noticeable for you either. We have some nice cloud structures to come, and I think you will be impressed once they are here. 

thanks

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This problem was really bad at first when the clouds were released, but honestly now I really don't notice any issues. They seem much better.

 

I do run at Ultra on a Pimax 8K X but tbh the performance is pretty good - unless I crank AA or PD up too high.

 

As BN said, it is all about balance with current hardware and where DCS is right now. I'm looking forward to when it is even better of course. All in good time.

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Yes I run clouds on Ultra as well with my Aero. I cut down in some other areas so I can run them at Ultra. They look so good. Once you have seen them the other levels just aren't that great.

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On 8/4/2022 at 9:16 AM, BIGNEWY said:

A little over dramatic but ok,

are you using ultra clouds? 

Tried all settings, This seems to be the response every time.  Dark heavy clouds are blocky and flicker, light clouds look fine, is there some kind of shadow effect in the clouds? seems to be worse the lower down on the horizon the sun appears. Thanks for the reply👍🙂

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  • 2 weeks later...
21 hours ago, nukeproof said:

BTW, any news on Vulkan?

Or multi-threading

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