F-86 Throttle Quadrant project

[jocko417]

I acquired an ex-RCAF Sabre throttle quadrant a while back, about 90% complete. Have been working on getting it set up to work with DCS, and it’s now less than 90% complete - :) - wanted to use original wiring harnesses, cannon plug, etc., but became easier just to replace old wiring with new.

 

 

Throttle grip can be twisted about it’s vertical axis for manual ranging, although the ancient pots appeared in Windows for calibration they only registered max and min values with nothing in between, so they got ripped out too. The microswitch that switches between auto and manual ranging works.

 

So the only things left to do are build a frame for the quadrant that I can bolt onto my Obutto cockpit, and decide how to get the throttle axis itself working in the game.

 

The throttle uses a pulley and cable system attached to the fuel control unit behind the cockpit. I removed the cable so I can use the pulley to run the pot for the thrust axis in game.

 

I have two choices, use a servo arm and a push rod to move a linear pot (slider), or using K’nex toy gears I’ve come up with another solution using a portion of a large gear which I will epoxy into the pulley groove, which will run a smaller gear which will be attached to the shaft of a rotary pot. The nice thing is the pot shaft is the same size as the center hole in the gear (6mm or 1/4 inch).

 

Something like this (haven’t glued the larger gear arc in yet):

 

 

The portion of the larger gear will cover the slightly less than 90 degrees of throttle arc from full thrust back to cut-off, the smaller gear will rotate about 220 degrees, easily within the 270 degrees of pot rotation available.

 

So what do you guys think? A push rod and slider combination may not give a true linear response due to the push rod end travelling in an arc, so right now I’m leaning towards the geared solution, but I’d like some expert opinions because this is my first attempt at doing something like this.

 

BTW, all the switches (speed brakes, mic, cage, flaps up/down and cut-off) work well. Using a Leo Bodnar joystick board with RS Mapper and DCS button mapping where required.

Edited September 25, 2019 by jocko417

[Sokol1_br]

Alternative: Bi-Tech 6127 Hall sensor - in pot format has models with 60, 90... degrees of "effective electric angle", so don't need gears. Bonus, don't suffer from worm out resistive trail like pot's, neither of backslash of gears.

 

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tt-electronics-bi/6127V1A60L.5/987-1391-ND/2620660

Edited September 25, 2019 by Sokol1_br

[jocko417]

By the way, here’s a pic of the business end. Pretty cool!

 

[Marcq]

Nice!! I would use the gearing option

 

 

Marc..

[Hiromachi]

On 9/25/2019 at 9:22 PM, jocko417 said:

I acquired an ex-RCAF Sabre throttle quadrant a while back, about 90% complete.

I apologize in advance for resurrecting this topic, but I was wondering how far did your project advance ? 

 

The reason I'm asking is that I have acquired some time ago F-100 Super Sabre throttle. It's fairly similar to F-86, but has few differences due to installation of afterburner switches. It doesnt merely move front / back, but also left right. Anyway, I was wondering how did you solve some of the problems and figure all of the connections for it. 

 

Mine looks as follows:

 

 

 

 

My main issue is lack of drawings and documents showing how throttle was wired originally and how to disassemble it. I had to work with pictures backtracking every step.

Until now I managed to:

- disassemble grip. It is exactly the same as yours - there is Cage button, Mic button and three position Airbrake button. Grip itself rotates. Inside of it is a small rod going all the way from the grip to the bottom of the lever where what I think is, is a potentiometer. You can see it next to 6630 switch, connected with 3 wires.

- disassemble lever 

- disassemble afterburner detent and switches

 

What I cant figure out is how to set sensor for for throttle axis and sensor for the grip rotation. I did not test the potentiometer whether it works, but from what you've said its not really working well in Windows. And still, new sensor should just work better. 

Other then that I wonder if you managed to figure out all of the connections. There are 3 cables coming from the three position airbrake switch, four from the cage switch and again three from mic switch. Thats a bit more than needed for my control board and I'd just like to know what is what. 

 

I have Virpil control boar and two sensors but cant seem to figure out how to install them. I cant figure out how to remove the potentiometer (this circular box) almost covered by friction lever and main axis remains even greater problem. If center was moving and I could attach magnet there, entire thing would be so much easier.

[jocko417]

11 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

I apologize in advance for resurrecting this topic, but I was wondering how far did your project advance ? 

 

The reason I'm asking is that I have acquired some time ago F-100 Super Sabre throttle. It's fairly similar to F-86, but has few differences due to installation of afterburner switches. It doesnt merely move front / back, but also left right. Anyway, I was wondering how did you solve some of the problems and figure all of the connections for it. 

 

Mine looks as follows:

 

My main issue is lack of drawings and documents showing how throttle was wired originally and how to disassemble it. I had to work with pictures backtracking every step.

Until now I managed to:

- disassemble grip. It is exactly the same as yours - there is Cage button, Mic button and three position Airbrake button. Grip itself rotates. Inside of it is a small rod going all the way from the grip to the bottom of the lever where what I think is, is a potentiometer. You can see it next to 6630 switch, connected with 3 wires.

- disassemble lever 

- disassemble afterburner detent and switches

 

What I cant figure out is how to set sensor for for throttle axis and sensor for the grip rotation. I did not test the potentiometer whether it works, but from what you've said its not really working well in Windows. And still, new sensor should just work better. 

Other then that I wonder if you managed to figure out all of the connections. There are 3 cables coming from the three position airbrake switch, four from the cage switch and again three from mic switch. Thats a bit more than needed for my control board and I'd just like to know what is what. 

 

I have Virpil control boar and two sensors but cant seem to figure out how to install them. I cant figure out how to remove the potentiometer (this circular box) almost covered by friction lever and main axis remains even greater problem. If center was moving and I could attach magnet there, entire thing would be so much easier.

 

Hi Hiromachi!

 

I also have an F-100 throttle quadrant, similar to yours, but with a smaller AB range. To be honest, my F-86 throttle project stalled out because I've been re-imagining my home cockpit setup. Once I get things finalized with the cockpit structure I'll get back to building a box to mount the throttle in that I can then attach to the cockpit frame. The F-100 quadrant has a couple of bolt holes on both the front and back of the frame, making it MUCH easier to mount in a cockpit than the F-86 quadrant. This is the other reason I haven't finished the F-86 quadrant, I may just decide to go with the F-100 instead, because it would work well for both the F-86, as well as the early afterburning jets like the F-100/104/105, etc. You would just have to add a three position switch somewhere for the flap control. The F-100 had it mounted just outboard of the quadrant, kind of like the A-10 flap switch.

 

I too have been unable to find any wiring diagrams of the F-100 throttle (unless you want to drop 400 bucks on eBay for the aircraft electrical system manual!!!).

 

As you pointed out, the F-100 quadrant is a simplified and improved version of the F-86 quadrant, with fewer parts, and the obvious difference of the afterburner range being added, and as I stated above, no built in flap lever. I plan to map the throttle axis the same way as the F-86 quadrant, using an arc of toothed gear cemented into the throttle cable channel of the wheel located at the throttle arm pivot point, turning another gear attached to the throttle axis pot. See my pics above.

 

You should probably plan on using 3rd party key assignment software like RS Mapper or something else to ensure the various switches work as designed. Having the ability to map one command for when the switch is "pressed" (ON) and another command when the switch is "released" (OFF) makes up for the fact these switches are not powered while in the OFF position.

 

Examples:

 

The push buttons in the grip can be easily wired up like any ON/OFF switch and assigned in the game like a typical DirectX push button, or to send keyboard commands by using 3rd party software. The speed brake switch is like an ON/OFF/ON switch. The center position of the speed brake switch may have to be mapped to command "HOLD" or "OFF" when released from either IN or OUT, or you may be stuck with FULLY open or FULLY closed.

 

The CUT-OFF/IGNITION micro switch behind the idle stop could be mapped with software so that when it is pressed the engine stops, and when released the engine starts. So, when you pull the throttle back around the idle gate it hits the switch and shuts the engine down, and when you advance it forward around the idle gate it starts the engine, just like using the start and stop key bindings in DCS.

 

The afterburner function introduces a new challenge. It's easy enough to assign an "afterburner ON/afterburner OFF" command when hitting the micro switch by moving the throttle outboard and inboard, but being able to adjust level of AB while in the AB range is something I haven't figured out yet. 3rd party mapping software may be able to do that.

 

The manual ranging pot/twist grip is a pain in the butt. You may get lucky and have a good pot, but if it doesn't work/spikes badly, you would have to replace it and come up with a way of attaching the twist shaft to the pot shaft, as well as dealing with what happens if the new pot is not the same size as the pot mount... it may be easiest for now to just forget about manual ranging and leave the pot installed but disconnected. Removing the pot may introduce some play in the throttle grip because of the spring force acting on the twist shaft end.

 

Hope this helps, feel free to ask more questions, you've reminded me me I need to finish this project!

 

Maybe Sokol1_br or others who know more than I do about this stuff could chime in

[Hiromachi]

3 hours ago, jocko417 said:

I too have been unable to find any wiring diagrams of the F-100 throttle (unless you want to drop 400 bucks on eBay for the aircraft electrical system manual!!!).

I have electrical systems manual. It does not have wiring diagram for throttle unfortunately.

I assume throttle wiring is covered either in:

Engine and Accessories T.O. 1F-100D(I)-2-3
or 
Instruments and Automatic Flight Control System T.O. 1F-100D(I)-2-7
or 
Wiring Data T.O. 1F-100D(I)-2-10

Construction is likely covered in Illustrated Parts Breakdown.

 

4 hours ago, jocko417 said:

You should probably plan on using 3rd party key assignment software like RS Mapper or something else to ensure the various switches work as designed. Having the ability to map one command for when the switch is "pressed" (ON) and another command when the switch is "released" (OFF) makes up for the fact these switches are not powered while in the OFF position.

Hmm, I will have to see once I connect them how Virpil software sees that. 

As I said, I have their circuit board and sensors:

 

4 hours ago, jocko417 said:

The push buttons in the grip can be easily wired up like any ON/OFF switch and assigned in the game like a typical DirectX push button, or to send keyboard commands by using 3rd party software. The speed brake switch is like an ON/OFF/ON switch. The center position of the speed brake switch may have to be mapped to command "HOLD" or "OFF" when released from either IN or OUT, or you may be stuck with FULLY open or FULLY closed.

 

The CUT-OFF/IGNITION micro switch behind the idle stop could be mapped with software so that when it is pressed the engine stops, and when released the engine starts. So, when you pull the throttle back around the idle gate it hits the switch and shuts the engine down, and when you advance it forward around the idle gate it starts the engine, just like using the start and stop key bindings in DCS.

 

The afterburner function introduces a new challenge. It's easy enough to assign an "afterburner ON/afterburner OFF" command when hitting the micro switch by moving the throttle outboard and inboard, but being able to adjust level of AB while in the AB range is something I haven't figured out yet. 3rd party mapping software may be able to do that.

I tested switches yesterday. Airbrake works as you say, its fairly simple switch. Microphone switch has three cables but for simple operation two are enough for connection. I was more puzzled about the Cage button until I read that it works for both gyro caging and LABS, hence four cables. 

 

Four other switches are of the same type - Micro Switch V3-1001 6630 manufactured in Freeport, Illlinois. They have 3 connections but you use only two at one time - it can either work as button and when depressed, current runs or it can run as "breaker" so current is running continuously and when depressed, it severs the connection and hence current flow. 

Two are used for afterburner, one at the bottom of the grip lever (near pot) and one in CUT-OFF/IGNITION position.

 

I'm still wondering whether I should completely replace cables or just wire them to the JST PH 5-pin connectors. They are old but seemed to work fine when tested yesterday.

 

4 hours ago, jocko417 said:

The manual ranging pot/twist grip is a pain in the butt. You may get lucky and have a good pot, but if it doesn't work/spikes badly, you would have to replace it and come up with a way of attaching the twist shaft to the pot shaft, as well as dealing with what happens if the new pot is not the same size as the pot mount... it may be easiest for now to just forget about manual ranging and leave the pot installed but disconnected. Removing the pot may introduce some play in the throttle grip because of the spring force acting on the twist shaft end.

I dont know how exactly it looks inside. I had an idea of emptying it and placing magnet at the bottom of the rotating rod. Than I would glue or attach otherwise sensor to the bottom of the pot shell.

I mean ... my pot works, not sure how precise it is but I dont feel like connecting half a century old pot to a brand new circuit board.

 

I just dont know how to open that damn thing

 

4 hours ago, jocko417 said:

I plan to map the throttle axis the same way as the F-86 quadrant, using an arc of toothed gear cemented into the throttle cable channel of the wheel located at the throttle arm pivot point, turning another gear attached to the throttle axis pot.

Will that produce 1:1 result ? This throttle has a fairly long movement so Id like to keep precision associated with it.

 

4 hours ago, jocko417 said:

Maybe Sokol1_br

You mean @Sokol1_br ?  

[jocko417]

8 hours ago, Hiromachi said:

I have electrical systems manual. It does not have wiring diagram for throttle unfortunately.

I assume throttle wiring is covered either in:

Engine and Accessories T.O. 1F-100D(I)-2-3
or 
Instruments and Automatic Flight Control System T.O. 1F-100D(I)-2-7
or 
Wiring Data T.O. 1F-100D(I)-2-10

Construction is likely covered in Illustrated Parts Breakdown.

 

Hmm, I will have to see once I connect them how Virpil software sees that. 

As I said, I have their circuit board and sensors:

 

I tested switches yesterday. Airbrake works as you say, its fairly simple switch. Microphone switch has three cables but for simple operation two are enough for connection. I was more puzzled about the Cage button until I read that it works for both gyro caging and LABS, hence four cables. 

 

Four other switches are of the same type - Micro Switch V3-1001 6630 manufactured in Freeport, Illlinois. They have 3 connections but you use only two at one time - it can either work as button and when depressed, current runs or it can run as "breaker" so current is running continuously and when depressed, it severs the connection and hence current flow. 

Two are used for afterburner, one at the bottom of the grip lever (near pot) and one in CUT-OFF/IGNITION position.

 

I'm still wondering whether I should completely replace cables or just wire them to the JST PH 5-pin connectors. They are old but seemed to work fine when tested yesterday.

 

I dont know how exactly it looks inside. I had an idea of emptying it and placing magnet at the bottom of the rotating rod. Than I would glue or attach otherwise sensor to the bottom of the pot shell.

I mean ... my pot works, not sure how precise it is but I dont feel like connecting half a century old pot to a brand new circuit board.

 

I just dont know how to open that damn thing

 

Will that produce 1:1 result ? This throttle has a fairly long movement so Id like to keep precision associated with it.

 

You mean @Sokol1_br ?  

Yes, those micro switch connections are handy, I have some military grade guarded push buttons on my F-86 button boxes that can be wired both ways. No need to worry about if you require a normally open vs a normally closed switch!

 

The gear idea should probably work, as I said above, the gear ratio is such that 90 degrees of throttle lever throw should give 220 degrees of pot travel out of a max of 270 degrees the pot is limited to. I decided on pots because they are cheap to replace and the 2.25” gear fits the shaft perfectly. The pots are good quality, I got them from Leo Bodnar, and I’ll be using one of his joystick boards as well.

 

I have the parts catalogue for the F-86, if the manual ranging pot is the same as the F-100’s they were supplied by a Chicago-based telephone company back in the day

 

Here’s my F-100 throttle quadrant, similar to yours but whatever model mine came from had a shorter AB range:

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by jocko417

[Hiromachi]

2 hours ago, jocko417 said:

The gear idea should probably work, as I said above, the gear ratio is such that 90 degrees of throttle lever throw should give 220 degrees of pot travel out of a max of 270 degrees the pot is limited to. I decided on pots because they are cheap to replace and the 2.25” gear fits the shaft perfectly. The pots are good quality, I got them from Leo Bodnar, and I’ll be using one of his joystick boards as well.

I guess this could also work with sensor. 

 

2 hours ago, jocko417 said:

I have the parts catalogue for the F-86, if the manual ranging pot is the same as the F-100’s they were supplied by a Chicago-based telephone company back in the day

It only has written at the bottom of it: SL8024 CTS 6630

[Hiromachi]

So, it works. Buttons work, potentiometer works too. It actually works pretty decently. There is a bit of ghosting at the end or maybe its just rough after 60 years. But it works, produces 572 points through the range of axis movement. 

[jocko417]

Great news!

[[MVP] Mugga]

Just received a link for this forum post today!  Awesome work guys... I will need to take some photos of the CAC CA27 Mk32 Sabre throttle quadrant that I have acquired for my F86F Sabre sim pit build.  You can see from the photos below, that the control unit is similar, but different.  The Australian Sabres used the Rolls Royce Avon engine and the throttle quadrant accommodated a RELIGHT lever on the left hand side.  Apologies for these photos, but I will post more detailed ones in the coming day.

You can follow my F86F Sabre Sim Pit build at the following locations:

DCS FORUMS
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/247916-mvp-f86f-sabre-sim-pit-build-blog/

MVP FACEBOOK PAGE
http://www.facebook.com/muggavirtualpilot

MVP DISCORD
MVP Discord: https://discord.gg/brSBc9BWaZ

KOREA1952 DISCORD
KOREA1952 Combat Server Discord: https://discord.gg/ht5uVAppvT

 

[[MVP] Mugga]

@jocko417 Did you end up getting your throttle quadrant rigged up and working within DCS?  I have started tearing my unit down in preparation for repainting and setup for Arduino/DCS BIOS.

 

[Hiromachi]

On 8/18/2022 at 11:10 AM, [MVP] Mugga said:

@jocko417 Did you end up getting your throttle quadrant rigged up and working within DCS?  I have started tearing my unit down in preparation for repainting and setup for Arduino/DCS BIOS.

 

While Im not jocko417, I can send you later pictures of my F-100 throttle and how its connected. I basically have main throttle arm, twist and all buttons working. 

[[MVP] Mugga]

Thanks @Hiromachi would appreciate that.

On another note... your DCS Forum profile picture... is that a CAC Boomerang?

[Hiromachi]

@[MVP] Mugga, 

I wanted to get some better pictures but for that Id have to disassemble entire mounting ... and I just dont feel like doing it now. Not because I'm lazy, but I'm dealing with covid for the past few days. 

So I will show you my entire construction and than focus on the throttle specifically. My first problem was how to mount this thing in a comfortable and adjustable way. So I came up with an idea (not alone ) to use the aluminium profiles. In this case 40 x 40 mm Bosch profiles: 

Simultanously, I started rewiring entire thing. Most of the switches were absurdly simple, although I had no experience soldering so it took me a while to get it done and after couple more panels and things Id probably do it much better now. Still. Inside of the throttle assembly there are four switches like this one: 

These are simple things, with three connections. When this tiny red "button" is pressed it closes one circuit, when its depressed another circuit is closed. So effectively, out of one switch you get two. It serves me for ignition / shutdown in MiG-21 and few other modules. Similarly there are switches past afterburner detent:

So in modules where afterburner is activated with some kind of a switch this allows me use them. In MiG-21 emergency afterburner is activated that way with this solution  

Rest is basically in the grip:

I wont be getting into buttons in the grip itself since they are pretty darn easy to rewire. The real pickle was the grip rotation ending with old potentiometer and another switch. As you can see, when grip is rotated to "0" position, it presses the button. I think irl it was for automatic ranging with radar. The moment you started twisting the grip, circuit would be left open and manual range input would proceed. 

I tried to get potentiometer to work (even though I broke one of the pins) but it was really old and there was just too much ghosting so I have settled with a sensor and magnet attached to potentiometer:

Sensor is attached to a 3d printed frame which in turn is attached to the bottom of the potentiometer. Above the sensor there is a magnet attached to the rotating pin. Voila.

The last thing of course is the throttle mechanism itself:

So I could not get the sensor attached in any other way than this. I basically mounted it in the center of axis rotation and had this metal "arm" attached to the throttle. At the bottom of the arm there is a magnet, so whenever I open / close throttle, it rotates over the sensor. 

All in all its not the best looking solution and I would have done it differently, but I got other things to attend in recent months so I will get back to it and couple other panels some other time. Hope this will be helpful  

[[MVP] Mugga]

Great work on the throttle pack @Hiromachi!   I will be doing more work on mine over the next week in the evenings and will post some updated photos.

[jocko417]

Hi guys!

@[MVP] Mugga F-86 quadrant project has been replaced (for now) by my own F-100 quadrant, as it will be a better all-round match for DCS/MSFS early jets both with and without AB (Sabre, Starfighter, DCS F-100D <Woot!>, etc). I've recently been upgrading my home pit from an Obutto R3V to an aluminum Monstertech style set up which is infinitely more adjustable for peripherals. Once I get the pit set up I'll return to the quadrant as a winter project. Did I mention how jealous I am of your collection of F-86 bits?

@Hiromachi Great job on both the quadrant and the mounting solution! This is exactly what I'm going to do with mine, some sort of 80/20 aluminum frame I can bolt on/take off in a couple of minutes. Wiring the switches is easy but I'll definitely be getting your advice when it comes time to set up the throttle axis electronics.

 

Cheers!

[[MVP] Mugga]

@jocko417 the entire F86 Sim Pit build has gotten well out of hand... what started as a great idea is well on its way to becoming a nightmare.  Having come as far as I have with it, I am determined to get it assembled and finished.  However, with news of the F100 now hitting DCS... I think I will be expanding my cockpit building to include a Hun pit.  I managed to miss out on an F100 forward cockpit section not long ago, but have bumped into one in the US that may be for sale at the right price!

[TomVR]

That throttle grip seems to be shared among the century series fighters too. Would love to try and replicate for 3D printing.

[TomVR]

I'm actually interested in making an F-104 grip for the coming module. Is the airbrake switch latching in the front and back positions, momentary or latching forward and momentary back?

Also how much travel does the switch have?