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Polychop Simulations OH-58D Kiowa


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@Kappa.  Have you heard that the guys have stopped working on the project? 

 

There's going to be long periods of testing, coding and tweaking which don't translate to exciting shiney features to show off.

 

PC are also a small team and this isn't their full time job.  The world has been in the grips of a pandemic for over a year now.  They have to juggle their own jobs, thier own lives, and working on the project.  Social media management is an expensive luxury.

 

When they do engage with the community on here, they receive a lot of toxic comments.  Some about the Gazelle, and some about things being "broken" on a module that's not even finished yet.  When they stopped putting up screenshots people freaked out, when they restarted putting up screenshots people shouted "these aren't updates"

 

Nobody has paid for pre-orders.  Nothing has been released.  None of us are owed anything by anybody here.

 

Paradoxically people are screaming for PC to hurry up and release, but woe if a module is released "unready" or with bugs.

 

Can we all just chill out, let the guys get on with their work and accept it'll be ready when it's ready?


Edited by PickleMonster
Woe not whoa
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@PickleMonster Dude... Be good, I was just asking a question... Do I have to pay a pre-order to ask a question?

Are you sure you're not the guy who need to chill out?

 

6 ore fa, PickleMonster ha scritto:

Social media management is an expensive luxury.


It is not necessary to do SMM, it would be enough to write a short post to let people know that they are still there.

 

 

 

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@PickleMonster Dude... Be good, I was just asking a question... Do I have to pay a pre-order to ask a question?
Are you sure you're not the guy who need to chill out?
 

It is not necessary to do SMM, it would be enough to write a short post to let people know that they are still there.
 
 
 
Aren't they active on the Discord?

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8 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Aren't they active on the Discord?

They are. So this supposed expensive luxury is something they're already indulging in. Which makes it even more baffling that they can't also…

  

On 4/4/2021 at 6:03 PM, Tippis said:

Maybe they should communicate that, then.

Preferably where people can easily find and see it.

 

Like in some kind of… forum? Maybe even in a thread dedicated to communicating development process?

 

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On 5/16/2021 at 1:42 AM, Tippis said:

They are. So this supposed expensive luxury is something they're already indulging in. Which makes it even more baffling that they can't also…

  

 

Forums aren't for everyone. If we follow you logic of "if you do one, why not the other" to the extreme, then why not twitch, instagram, facebook and twitter? And then they spend hours and hours on it. If they only have time for Discord, better that they stick with that and dedicate at least some time for it. If they start to split their time between life stuff, actual module development, and multiple social platforms, it will start to be unmanageable.

 

I get that some people do not like to move to other platforms. I fly with some people who are over 70 and they had a rough time when we moved our squadron to Discord - but in the end with some patience they managed just fine. Not saying this is anyone's case here, just saying I understand feeling comfortable with what you know. But in the end we have no control over the guys at PC, and just because they don't take time to show up on this forum, doesn't mean they don't care about the community, stopped the development of the KW or any of that. 

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5 hours ago, Qiou87 said:

Forums aren't for everyone. If we follow you logic of "if you do one, why not the other" to the extreme, then why not twitch, instagram, facebook and twitter?

Are they already on twitch, instagram, facebook, and twitter? Do they already have an open discussion thread created by them, where they say that they will be “posting periodical situation reports during the remainder of the development process”? Because that's all there is to my logic: use the thread for the purpose it was expressly created to be used for, and it doesn't follow that they need to spend their time anywhere else. Not even on Discord.

 

5 hours ago, Qiou87 said:

Just because they don't take time to show up on this forum, doesn't mean they don't care about the community,

If they don't feel it necessary to follow up on their promises to the community in the place where they have expressly and explicitly promised to follow up on them, then guess what that looks like…

 

If you care about your community, you go where the community is — you don't force them to go where you've decided to set up camp today (especially not when you already clearly have the resources available to maintain multiple different communications channels… just not the most obvious and immediately available one).


Edited by Tippis
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It has been said already, now the focus was specially finishing FM, but that is something that is not noticeable by a screenshot or video. When there is something to be shown, it will be. Just don't worry about it, the project keeps going. 

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It has been said already, now the focus was specially finishing FM, but that is something that is not noticeable by a screenshot or video. When there is something to be shown, it will be. Just don't worry about it, the project keeps going. 
Thanks!

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"Forums aren't for everyone. If we follow you logic of "if you do one, why not the other" to the extreme, then why not twitch, instagram, facebook and twitter?"

 

Because DCS is the BASE, Foundation for all of these modules, its as simple as that! This is where I should be getting updates, not guessing what other platform I should be looking at or probably dont have an account for.

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13 hours ago, Fakum said:

"Forums aren't for everyone. If we follow you logic of "if you do one, why not the other" to the extreme, then why not twitch, instagram, facebook and twitter?"

 

Because DCS is the BASE, Foundation for all of these modules, its as simple as that! This is where I should be getting updates, not guessing what other platform I should be looking at or probably dont have an account for.

DCS is the base, yes, but not the forums. Forums are just one way that ED set up for them to communicate with their customers (ED is also present on Instagram, and maybe elsewhere as well). I do not know about third-party agreements they have with Razbam, Heatblur etc. but I doubt there is a requirement for the third party to also be present on the forums. It also depends on team size, RB has a dedicated community manager for example, something maybe Polychop cannot afford.

 

Forums are an old way of communicating on the internet. There are many alternatives, most of which are preferred by younger generations ; I find it very reductive to consider that only forums are an acceptable way to communicate. I get it: it is the wish of some people here, this is fine, you are totally right to ask for what you want. But in the end PC is also totally in their right to do what they want and communicate how they want to. My issue is with those that claim that PC is not communicating at all, when in fact they are just not communicating the way you would want them to. There is a massive difference.


Edited by Qiou87
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14 minutes ago, Qiou87 said:

DCS is the base, yes, but not the forums. Forums are just one way that ED set up for them to communicate with their customers (ED is also present on Instagram, and maybe elsewhere as well).

 

DCS World is the platform/framework/base for all modules to run.

 

Eagle Dynamics forum is the base for all bug reports, news, discussions etc about modules, companies, squadrons, people etc.

 

Quote

Forums are an old way of communicating on the internet.

 

Before anything we BBS, Bulletin Board Systems.

Then we had Newsgroups (Usenet).

 

Both are great when you want to discuss, especially the Newsgroups as you got excellent communication hierarchy and you could manage and handle all nicely. Like features as linking to other threads and posts, private messages, merging etc.

 

But the World Wide Web brought ugly HTML emails and of course later HTML forums as this one (using all other tech of course).

 

And all the time we have had a IRC, a old text communication in realtime from channel to channel, at different servers. Great for group talk and private ones. That is what discord really is again, with option to have VoIP and Video.

 

Where these web forums are great, is that you only need web browser to access them. And some has support to other apps on mobile like Tapatalk that makes almost everything easier on the go (I used it).

 

Quote

 I find it very reductive to consider that only forums are an acceptable way to communicate. I get it: it is the wish of some people here, this is fine, you are totally right to ask for what you want. But in the end PC is also totally in their right to do what they want and communicate how they want to.

 

I think you are misunderstanding. People don't want all to happen only in this forum, as no YouTube, no Twitter, no Discord etc.

 

What people want is that this forum is THE primary communication and announcement channel.....

 

If some official makes news and video, post them to proper forum first. Then use what ever they want as well, but guide people to use this place primarily. So that all people gather to one location regardless what company they are supporting or what time they move.

 

If someone wants to comment how cool the new trailer is in YouTube, it is okay.

But do not go there to make bug reports or ask news or discuss about development, instead come here.

 

If someone has news, don't ignore this place and only use Discord... Or Twitter.

 

It really is not difficult when you are skilled to use all. It takes like 30 seconds to make a new post to correct forum among all other channels.

 

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"I find it very reductive to consider that only forums are an acceptable way to communicate."

 

Not sure who said that? Wasnt me! I personally dont care where else they want to post outside of DCS as long as they post from the base/root, whatever you want to call it. Im in the DCS forums for DCS related discussion. Unless I find out theres a seperate, dedicated PC website, I would expect their module info to be posted here primarily and they could spider off to any other of the 300 other social media channels that are not directly related to DCS all they want. It doesnt appear that is the case though, that would just make sense. Maybe Im just too old and expect things to be simple and make sense? Why would I want to hunt around for DCS related modules on unrelated social media sites? I dont, especially if I dont have or need or want accounts for them?

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On 5/15/2021 at 5:32 PM, MAXsenna said:

Aren't they active on the Discord?
 

Yes, but Discord isn't exactly the easiest place to get updates and track where they are in the development process. Anyone who has spent more than 5min on there knows it's pretty much a big open chat that could potentially take hours, if not days, to find a specific reference to an update or announcement that isn't exactly placed in the announcements channel. And I can't speak for others, but myself, when I get on discord, I'm reluctant to even ask a question for fear it's been asked but is buried in weeks of conversation. Their FB page has been pretty much relegated to posting their SOTW (when they actually have one of the team get on and post (the last one at the time of this writing was on 5/10). And that's not even a good gauge (as has been previously stated) of where they are at in the development process. The most helpful information I've been able to garner in recent months (and I use recent very loosely) was when Casmo did that interview with Sven back in December. PC has almost zero presence on YouTube- which I understand, the time it takes to record, edit and publish a video to YT is time better well spent at your job, working on the module, or spent with your family. Like others have said, these guys are a small team, that have lives outside of the KW project, and I understand that. But it takes maybe 3min to jump on and give a quick update on here- that's where I'm in full understanding of the frustration as to why a lot of people are feeling like there hasn't been much in the way of chatter from PC (outside the mess that is Discord). 

Pretty much Fri13 hit the nail on the head. Many of us just want some kind of update- regular or not- here, where it's easy to get it, not somewhere that's a total dumpster fire like Discord. That's just my $.02.

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I ain't gonna quote you all, as I agree/disagree with a lot of what all you have written.
It is what it is, and PC is not the only DCS third party that have chosen to use other media as their main way of communication.
We all want the Kiowa to be perfect, and anticipated it's release before Christmas last year.
Take care all of you! Sometimes things are worth waiting for, and I truly believe this is one of those!
Cheers!

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  • 9 months later...

When they had their PR offensive back in 2020 it was "6 months away" and looked pretty complete at that time.

What happened?

I'm now thinking they've had a serious problem in their dev team. The extended time no longer makes sense.

OH-58 is still top of my buy list, before anyone thinks I'm trolling. It's why I'm here now in March 2022.


Edited by Tiger-II

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8 hours ago, Tiger-II said:

What happened?

I'm now thinking they've had a serious problem in their dev team.

They had a serious problem
• "... a serious medical condition affecting one of our team members."
• "... we could not disclose the reasons behind the delay out of courtesy to the affected member and his family."

Work on the OH-58D is once again progressing ...

 

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8 hours ago, Tiger-II said:

When they had their PR offensive back in 2020 it was "6 months away" and looked pretty complete at that time.

What happened?

 

I also believe there was a really significant setback, as one of the big DCS World patches "broke" something in the code/function of the Kiowa project, and required a significant effort to research the problem, try out different possible solutions, implement, test and then carry on. Now, it's my belief that this setback was solved a long time ago, but it did seem to push their timetable signficantly.

From what I gather, estimating time to create a complex flight sim product is difficult. But you can double or tripple the difficulty to create complex COMBAT flight sim products... making time estimates basically useless. ED is only good at time estimates because they've been successful for litteral decades with dozens of products, and even they struggle at accurate time estimations! 

Also, particularly with tiny teams, real world issues can greatly interfear with the time needed to code/make such a module. From what I gather, Poly is not made of two dozen employees on salary working 9 to 5, but rather a few people working in their spare time, with no income from the Kiowa project, rather they are investing their own money for Kiowa hardware and their own "sweat equity" (meaning they are investing their spare time) to make this happen. And maybe they hire a specialist for a short term contract to help make this or that be created and work well ( like maybe to make sure the thermal image works properly like the real world, or maybe to make the Hellfire behave like the real deal, or figure out the stability augmentation system, maybe to paint it up well with different liveries, maybe an audio specialist who made recordings of the real OH-58D in cockpit, external engines, and maybe it's .50cal firing). 

I'm not trying to make excuses, but just offer some perspectives to help possibly explain what it might look like from the inside! 


Edited by Rick50
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Whatever the problems were, I’m grateful to PC that they persevered. Both the coding of Kiowa and Gazelle don’t seem motivated by money. With the amount of negative feedback for the Gazelle nobody could have found fault with PC if they’d simply closed shop. Of course it’s absolutely ok to point out bugs and ask for a fix. But the way part of the criticism was offered was quite over the top.

So I’ll just wait patiently for the Kiowa and be happy that PC seem on track again.

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  • BIGNEWY locked and unlocked this topic
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Please keep the title of the thread the topic of discussion. 

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26 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

I'm sure the Kiowa will meet the same high levels of quality that Polycop has demonstrated already, and I will make my purchase accordingly.

Harsh but fair 😄

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❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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Well, no matter what the experience with the Gazelle has been (full disclosure: I don’t have it) the -58 will be a day one purchase for me. 
 

I am extremely impressed with the AH-64, but I’m not interested in it. I really want the -58, and if somebody came out with an AH-1, that would be day-one as well.  The -58 vids I’ve seen during development are exactly what I want and look great. I check the forum and DCS site regularly in the hope that “pre-purchase” or “available now” shows up.

Not all modules are for everybody, but I’m pretty sure this one will be a winner.

That, and if RAZBAM ever gets the A-29 out…

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