Polychop Simulations OH-58D Kiowa

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, Trunkmunki said:

Well, no matter what the experience with the Gazelle has been (full disclosure: I don’t have it) the -58 will be a day one purchase for me.

While I understand your enthusiasm, you really should be tempering it.

The experience with the Gazelle for those who do have it is that unless and until Polychop can prove that they are actually able to deliver a proper helo sim, one should not wantonly throw cash their way. It's an interesting helo, but only if it actually works and plays well. This should probably be a day one two week trial, to see if they learned their lesson from the UFO, and only then be considered for actual purchase.

Often in these instances, some counter argument to the effect of “they deserve to be paid for the effort” or “if everyone did that, they'd be out of a job” comes up, but unless that effort actually results in something worth-while; unless the job is actually done right, then no, they don't actually deserve it and they should be out of a job. Very mean, I know, but without that incentive there will never be a quality product.

[Devil 505]

1 hour ago, Tippis said:

The experience with the Gazelle for those who do have it is that unless and until Polychop can prove that they are actually able to deliver a proper helo sim, one should not wantonly throw cash their way. It's an interesting helo, but only if it actually works and plays well.

I do not want to start a fight, however this statement is very unfair to their team.  I have owned the Gazelle since day 1 and while it has needed some love and more work, it is more than capable of combat in DCS and fly's fine once you learn the sensitivity of the aircraft.  There should  be no reason to tell others not to buy Poly's product because of personal opinions.  They do not speak for everyone.    

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, Devil 505 said:

I do not want to start a fight, however this statement is very unfair to their team.

It really isn't. The failings of the module are many, well-documented and well-proven.

It is not a personal opinion — it is just fact. The Gazelle is not a well-modelled aircraft; it does not behave like a helicopter, much less like the actual Gazelle; and it even just outright and blatantly breaks the laws of physics on a number of points related to the most critical component of the whole thing: how it flies. It is also not a personal opinion that, given this history, it is probably best to try before you buy their next offering — it's just rational consumer behaviour.

What might pass as personal opinion is the characterisation of it as a UFO, but then, with the aforementioned errors in mind, that's not a wholly undeserved label, nor is the apprehension many felt when it was this particular developer that were given the go-ahead to develop this particular module. But those are consequences of the observed faults and errors, and neither of those are the basis for the suggestion to moderate anticipation and to not spend money on something that we have no idea how it will turn out. Again, those are just standard good consumer reflexes given the history of the developer.

[toilet2000]

5 hours ago, Devil 505 said:

I do not want to start a fight, however this statement is very unfair to their team.  I have owned the Gazelle since day 1 and while it has needed some love and more work, it is more than capable of combat in DCS and fly's fine once you learn the sensitivity of the aircraft.  There should  be no reason to tell others not to buy Poly's product because of personal opinions.  They do not speak for everyone.    

Unfortunately the Gazelle is objectively a very incomplete, inaccurate and at this point unsupported module. Be it from RL Gazelle pilots or data-driven analysis. See: 

 

The issue is that sharing anecdotical evidence that it is "fine" with changing joystick curves (makes no sense) will lead to very dissatisfied customers. So yeah, I think Tippis has a much more valuable point here than yours.

 

 

[Schlomo1933]

Am 2.4.2022 um 21:40 schrieb Devil 505:

I do not want to start a fight, however this statement is very unfair to their team.  I have owned the Gazelle since day 1 and while it has needed some love and more work, it is more than capable of combat in DCS and fly's fine once you learn the sensitivity of the aircraft.  There should  be no reason to tell others not to buy Poly's product because of personal opinions.  They do not speak for everyone.    

That thing is completely unrealistic in its flight behavior…. It has nothing to do with a simulation of a helicopter. 
 

if u think that the gazelle is realistic, than u maybe also think ACE COMBAT is a simulation…. 
 

 

and it’s a shame, that Ed let Polyshop make another module for DCS…. 
now with polychops hands on the Kiowa , all hope is gone to get a realistic one. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Schlomo1933

[Devil 505]

4 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

That thing is completely unrealistic in its flight behavior…. It has nothing to do with a simulation of a helicopter. 
 

if u think that the gazelle is realistic, than u maybe also think ACE COMBAT is a simulation…. 
 

 

and it’s a shame, that Ed let Polyshop make another module for DCS…. 
now with polychops hands on the Kiowa , all hope is gone to get a realistic one. 

 

No real need for this rhetoric.  Poly has already admitted since this post they need to work on the Gazelle and intend to, however they are finishing the Kiowa first.  Afterwards they will turn towards working the Gazelle's flight model and improving where need be.  

I find it insulting keyboard warriors like yourself tend to think they know what's best for everyone and how a helicopter fly's when you have no real world experience.  Pretty easy to take an educated guess you were never an officer in the military based on how you type and your use of grammar. 

Poly has numerous Kiowa pilots testing the module so to insult the product before release is to insult the test pilots ensuring its accuracy, who also flew the real thing in the Army.  Not really a good impression to leave if you expect anyone to take anything you say serious.    

[Schlomo1933]

I don’t believe they will make it right. I have absolutely no trust in polychop. The models they make Look beautiful, but that’s all… flight dynamics are a complete different thing…. 

Btw, where do you know that I have no real live flight experience in helicopters ? 

[Nahen]

14 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

 

if u think that the gazelle is realistic, than u maybe also think ACE COMBAT is a simulation…. 

 

And you think the DCS F-16 flight model is realistic? Until recently, it was closer to the Star Wars universe, today remind me how many years after the release of this module, it is better ...
So before you score the bad Gazelle flight module so much, think about how many of the modules in DCS are actually close to the real parameters of fly ...

[Rosebud47]

It´s also true for me, that the flight model of the Gazelle doesn´t feel right. But I got trust in Polychop, that it got revised, once the Kiowa is released.

Regarding the Kiowa it can´t be appreciated enough, that Polychop is going to release the release version - no early access version! I really do hope, that other developer would follow this attitude for module releases, as in my observation, taking an early access module to release state takes longer time than developing a module from scratch to final release state. No speculation at this point, just observing the development history of the Kiowa in comparison to early access release modules. But there should be surely taken into account the complexity of each module and the different variants of a module planned for final release.

To be honest, I believe, what Polychop is planning for the release of the Kiowa and its variants is so far the best user friendly and most satisfying release, we will ever see so far for DCS module... but let´s wait for the final release for seeing if believing turns into facts - I´m quite optimistic, after seeing the videos Barundus and others have so far put online about the Kiowa and its flight module.

Also would like to mention, that Polychop is not addressing the passengers of the hype trains in first place, what points for me to really focus on development and focus on getting over the obstacles in the development process.

I´m sure with the know-how about helicopter flight models Polychop gained due the development of the Kiowa and its variants, it will be easy for them to transfer a completely new flight model to the Gazelle finally, after the release of the Kiowa.

Maybe I´m wrong and there are things going on in the background nobody knows, but I believe in what Polychop communicated and showed so far of the development process and I don´t see any reason to change my mind. 

[Devil 505]

15 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

Btw, where do you know that I have no real live flight experience in helicopters ? 

I have grown up around military and civilian pilots.  They are more humble than you and would usually offer constructive criticism utilizing their experience flying.  They would not make references to Ace Combat or trash Poly.  Any pilot flying in DCS I would hope would be pleased with a third party making an attempt at helos like Poly.  If you are insinuating you are a real pilot, then you have not learned the long historical practice of being humble, nor have you acknowledged that most aircraft fresh off the assembly line usually have issues.  This goes the same for DCS modules which has been stated over and over again.  If you are a real pilot, I would be honored to hear some of your stories.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Devil 505

[RealDCSpilot]

@Schlomo1933 is 100% right. Until today, there have never been any helicopter genes in PC's flight models.

[MAXsenna]

4 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

@Schlomo1933 is 100% right. Until today, there have never been any helicopter genes in PC's flight models.

Well, sure. But it ain't to him whether others enjoy the Gazelle or not, or they are looking forward to the Kiowa. 

I got the Gazelle in a helicopter bundle sale, so I don't really want to complain too much.

What I don't get is why PC don't go on Github, look at Nibbylot's example, the UH-60, and compare it with their own FMs for the Gazelle/Kiowa to see if some  adjustments can easily be made. Even if gets only a tiny bit better I would release that to give people hope and a little bit of "piece of mind". If they could convince the most relentless critics like yourself,  that there maybe hope after all. It could even trigger back some of the hype for the Kiowa. But I guess that's only me.

Cheers! 

[Steel Jaw]

Oh.  Is this still a thing?

[Rosebud47]

Hey MAXsenna,

just wanted to bring back in mind this interview with Polychop and Casmo from December 2020.

From minute 11 they are talking about the flight model.

Oh, I see the next hot posts coming up complaining, that it was 1 1/2 year ago and for that might not be true anymore .

 

Also please see this quote from the very first post of this thread by Polychop from 2019:

"Learning from the past and including subject matter expert input and testing right from the start, countless hours have been spent at coding a new and true to life flight model to a point where we can honestly say we’re proud of the result. We don’t take that statement lightly as we know the flight model of our previous module did not live up to expectations. That said, the SA-342 Gazelle module will be updated in time with the new technology developed for the Kiowa. The same amount of time has been spent on meticulously coding the implementation of all the systems, devices and weaponry available to the Kiowa’s crew."

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Rosebud47

[MAXsenna]

4 hours ago, Rosebud47 said:

Hey MAXsenna,

just wanted to bring back in mind this interview with Polychop and Casmo from December 2020.

From minute 11 they are talking about the flight model.

Oh, I see the next hot posts coming up complaining, that it was 1 1/2 year ago and for that might not be true anymore .

 

Yeah, I remembered that one.  

Nice to watch again. Thanks!  

[corbu1]

I still hope the KW will come to live in DCS……and I can wait for it to be released.

[Schlomo1933]

What makes me so angry is the fact, if Polyshop make again such an unfinished / wrong / unrealistic flightmodel…. We will never get a Kiowa with the perfection of a Huey or Hind and so on.  
i would love to see some other team on the Kiowa. Like Heatblur , or ED themselves.  
If Polyshop messes up. No other team will make a second version . So we have to live with an UFO Kiowa ….
Do you understand now why I’m so mad? 
For me it’s not enough to fly something that looks like the irl plane. No , I want the flightmodel  realistic as possible…. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Schlomo1933

[Devil 505]

2 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

For me it’s not enough to fly something that looks like the irl plane. No , I want the flightmodel  realistic as possible…. 

I guess we will have to wait and see once its released.  I do understand your perspective of once a third party creates a module and does it wrong, it does not get touched again after.  Those of us around long enough with DCS remember VEAO.  We all lost a little cash and hopes there.  I can only trust that Poly has learned from mistakes with the Gazelle flight model and corrected with the Kiowa.  Then hold true to their word and work the flight model over for Gazelle.  I will maintain faith they can pull it off until the Kiowa comes out and proves me wrong.  Until then, they still have my support.  Everyone should be given a second chance at most things in life, especially our virtual aviation dreams. 

And I have to disagree with you on Heatblur doing a Helo, I want my Intruder before they tackle rotary.  We all know anything they touch turns to gold.    

[ST0RM]

17 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

What makes me so angry is the fact, if Polyshop make again such an unfinished / wrong / unrealistic flightmodel…. We will never get a Kiowa with the perfection of a Huey or Hind and so on.  
i would love to see some other team on the Kiowa. Like Heatblur , or ED themselves.  
If Polyshop messes up. No other team will make a second version . So we have to live with an UFO Kiowa ….
Do you understand now why I’m so mad? 
For me it’s not enough to fly something that looks like the irl plane. No , I want the flightmodel  realistic as possible…. 

 

Save the anger for an eventual release. Who knows what state the FM will be in. 
Otherwise, dont buy it and be angry at other devs

[Schlomo1933]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Devil 505:

And I have to disagree with you on Heatblur doing a Helo, I want my Intruder before they tackle rotary.  We all know anything they touch turns to gold.    

Just true

[Nahen]

On 8/23/2022 at 12:17 AM, Devil 505 said:

And I have to disagree with you on Heatblur doing a Helo, I want my Intruder before they tackle rotary.  We all know anything they touch turns to gold.    

 

21 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

Just true

>>>We all know anything they touch turns to gold.<<<

Especially phoenixes Which don't hit anything from 40 miles away
But ok, I am able to throw it on ED and not Heatblur - once these missiles worked much better ... Today somehow they are not something terrible for me when they fly to me

[adirtynurse]

On 8/22/2022 at 9:49 PM, Schlomo1933 said:

 Kiowa with the perfection of a Huey or Hind and so on.  

Huey is also considered unrealistic in its FM.

Just sayin'

 

This convo brings a smirk on my face every time I read it.

People complaining about their milk going bad, when the cow hasn't even been born yet

[Snappy]

59 minutes ago, adirtynurse said:

Huey is also considered unrealistic in its FM.

Just sayin'

 

This convo brings a smirk on my face every time I read it.

People complaining about their milk going bad, when the cow hasn't even been born yet

Say what now?

 There’s probably  still room for improvement, but contrary to a certain developers Gazelle , the Huey‘s FM was generally reviewed very favourably in regards to realism as far as I’m aware.

But I agree with you on that the Kiowa should be viewed as a clean slate and it’s FM not be trashed before it’s even been released.

Pretty sure Polychop took the criticism to heart.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Snappy

[agamemnon_b5]

On 8/21/2022 at 9:20 PM, Devil 505 said:

They are more humble than you

Being in Army Aviation for 20 years, I laugh at this comment. 

[Nahen]

19 hours ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

Being in Army Aviation for 20 years, I laugh at this comment.