Pilot G Tolerance too low?

[=475FG= Dawger]

9 G break turns should not result in greyout.

 

Sustained 9 G should not result in blackout or GLOC

 

The F-16 seems to getting the short end of the stick here.

 

The FA-18 can do 11.5 G breaks and sustain well above 9 for close to 180 degrees of turn.

 

The F-15C can do even better.

 

One pilot model should be a priority

[bies]

There's a lot of opinion and very little convincing science in this thread.

 

Standard regular cetrifuge profile for F-16 pilot was rapid gain until 9G and hold for 15 seconds without G lock.

If i remenber well when someone failed 3 times he ceased to be an F-16 pilot.

So we are far below minimal standard F-16 pilot right now. But reclined seat and additional G resistance may be modeled in the future since Matt mentioned this in an official discription of F-16 module on the DCS main page.:thumbup:

 

"Nicknamed the Viper by its pilots, the F-16 was designed with a reclined seating position for high G tolerance and a single-piece bubble canopy for exceptional visibility and comfort."

Nicknamed the Viper by its pilots, the F-16 was designed with a reclined seating position for high G tolerance and a single-piece bubble canopy for exceptional visibility and comfort.

[Donut]

Standard regular cetrifuge profile for F-16 pilot was rapid gain until 9G and hold for 15 seconds without G lock.

If i remenber well when someone failed 3 times he ceased to be an F-16 pilot.

So we are far below minimal standard F-16 pilot right now. But reclined seat and additional G resistance may be modeled in the future since Matt mentioned this in an official discription of F-16 module on the DCS main page.:thumbup:

 

 

Nicknamed the Viper by its pilots, the F-16 was designed with a reclined seating position for high G tolerance and a single-piece bubble canopy for exceptional visibility and comfort.

 

Hopefully this post will be labeled 'WIP" by ED then...

[Vosene]

Mover, who was an F-16 Pilot, has made it clear that F-16 pilots can sustain 9g:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4071238&postcount=5

 

He also briefed the centrifuge 9g profile for F-16 pilots (same as Bies stated), which could be considered by ED as the minimum sustained 9g profile in the DCS F-16 before the onset of significant visual G effects.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4071348&postcount=9

 

Edit: interesting video Mover made about pulling G -

Edited October 12, 2019 by Vosene

[Fri13]

Non-anecdotally (although IIRC but yes, the sources are out there), real g protection requires at least 55 degrees on the reclined seat. 30 degrees like the viper's offers minimal additional tolerance.

 

What are typical seats degrees? Like what is in F/A-18C and what is in Su-27S and MiG-21?

[Cupra]

Anyone took a look how many g are needed for example in an F-16 to stay in speed for optimal turn rate? You do not have to turn with 9g all the time. Fighting with 9g you will loose very fast...

[speed-of-heat]

i have read a post somewhere , that the modelling in the game enables you to "warm up"; e.g. a few 4-6g manoeuvres, will help you sustain higher G's (dont ask me for the reference)

[GGTharos]

What are typical seats degrees? Like what is in F/A-18C and what is in Su-27S and MiG-21?

I don't know but obviously less than 30.

[Sandman1330]

Anyone took a look how many g are needed for example in an F-16 to stay in speed for optimal turn rate? You do not have to turn with 9g all the time. Fighting with 9g you will loose very fast...

 

According to the readily available online EM diagrams that I haven't seen, best sustained turn rate is right around 8 or a bit higher (sea level and clean of course, which does happen to be how most 1v1 servers in DCS are set up).

Edited October 14, 2019 by Sandman1330

[Fri13]

Does anyone know or point to information that what is seats angle in aircrafts like F/A-18C, F-15C, Su-27S etc? Or the general angles?

[speed-of-heat]

not sure exactly, I understand anecdotally that the Viper is the only seat to have a relevant g-relevant angle of incline

[Fri13]

If Viper has 30° and others has 28-29°, then so what?

[Sandman1330]

Does anyone know or point to information that what is seats angle in aircrafts like F/A-18C, F-15C, Su-27S etc? Or the general angles?

 

According to Wikipedia, for what that’s worth:

 

The F-16's ACES II zero/zero ejection seat is reclined at an unusual tilt-back angle of 30°; most fighters have a tilted seat at 13–15°. The tilted seat can accommodate taller pilots and increases G-force tolerance; however it has been associated with reports of neck ache, possibly caused by incorrect head-rest usage.[82] Subsequent U.S. fighters have adopted more modest tilt-back angles of 20°.

 

The Wikipedia citation refers to Jane’s all the world aircraft as source.

[bies]

Hornets have NACES with about 12° pilot's body. MiG-29 and Su-27 use K-36D with about 10° pilot's body. F-15 ACES II about 13° pilot's body.

 

(Back walls of both seats are more angled, about 15-19° but this angle is not a pilot's body position but ejection angle.)

Edited October 14, 2019 by bies

[yngvef]

Based on what I've read around the internets, as well as statements from real pilots like Mover, I am fairly convinced that our DCS pilot needs a higher G tolerance.

 

I wonder if there are any plans to look into this from ED?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

I wonder if there are any plans to look into this from ED?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4073660&postcount=34

[yngvef]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4073660&postcount=34

 

Thank you so much, I had missed this one! :thumbup:

[Stratozombie]

I haven't seen anyone explicitly point that DCS does not distinguish between blackout and GLOC. You can be completely blacked out for some time and remain conscious, and all you need to do is relax G and your vison will return (BTDT). If you black out in DCS you are immediately unconscious, and for an extended period, despite the fact that the unconscious pilot would have automatically relaxed the excessive backpressure. The immediate and extended lapse of consciousness is unrealistic and must be fixed. I'm new to DCS and this forum -- how do we influence the developers?

[schurem]

- how do we influence the developers?

 

Beyond doing what you just did, politely asking for it on the forum? We don't.

[GGTharos]

If you GLOC you're out anywhere from 20 to 80 seconds - you may not actually be blacked out during all this time in RL but you're not functional.

 

 

Immediate g-loc is based on a particular curve, and happens under specific circumstances. While you could be blacked out without being unconscious, that's a rather fine line you're walking there and there's no reasonable expectation that regaining sight = particularly functional.

 

 

 

The immediate and extended lapse of consciousness is unrealistic and must be fixed.

[draconus]

If you black out in DCS you are immediately unconscious, and for an extended period, despite the fact that the unconscious pilot would have automatically relaxed the excessive backpressure.

 

The stick recenters afair when you gloc.

[Capn kamikaze]

Don't forget that we are not fighters pilots and we don't wear G suits in our houses

so expect slight lower values in G tolerance.

 

Irrelevant, we're talking about a simulator, where the simulated bit of flesh in the cockpit is a simulation of a fighter pilot, so it should respond like a real fighter pilot would.

[Stratozombie]

My point is that blackout and GLOC are different, and blackout doesn't necessarily lead to GLOC. In days past I had low blood pressure and a somewhat low resting G-tolerance so I had to work at my anti-G maneuver. I grayed out occasionally but had it under control, but once I did black out completely while continuing to fly the aircraft through a max G pull up from an unplanned nose buried to nose high recovery. I was completely blacked out through the pull and completed it by feel. Once I let off the G I was instantly back to full bright. I have never GLOCed because I never let anyone snatch the G in rapidly enough to blunder past my blackout limit. In DCS once you go black you are out, and that is not a true representation of pulling into black smoothly.

[Fri13]

Hornets have NACES with about 12° pilot's body. MiG-29 and Su-27 use K-36D with about 10° pilot's body. F-15 ACES II about 13° pilot's body.

 

(Back walls of both seats are more angled, about 15-19° but this angle is not a pilot's body position but ejection angle.)

 

 

Interesting that the Soviet/Russian seats has so low angle, considering their maneuverability and capabilities to pull so much higher turn rates etc.

[Fri13]

My point is that blackout and GLOC are different, and blackout doesn't necessarily lead to GLOC. In days past I had low blood pressure and a somewhat low resting G-tolerance so I had to work at my anti-G maneuver. I grayed out occasionally but had it under control, but once I did black out completely while continuing to fly the aircraft through a max G pull up from an unplanned nose buried to nose high recovery. I was completely blacked out through the pull and completed it by feel. Once I let off the G I was instantly back to full bright. I have never GLOCed because I never let anyone snatch the G in rapidly enough to blunder past my blackout limit. In DCS once you go black you are out, and that is not a true representation of pulling into black smoothly.

 

That is what I have wondered that why in DCS you lose completely the capability control aircraft, as the blackout/grayout has zero transition range to the GLOC.