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Question about the F-14 throttle and general fighter lingo


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As I understand it, "mil" power means "military power" and refers to throttle position at its highest just before afterburner.

 

In the tomcat cockpit however, the throttle is marked "mil" about a 1/3 of the way up, and then "max" just before afterburner.

 

Am I reading this incorrectly, or was the lingo different when the Cat was developed?

 

 

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But do you see here that MIL power is about 1/3 of the way up the travel path? Maybe about halfway actually. Afterburner doesn't light until after the Max power line and is only a small portion of the throttle travel path at the top (at least in the sim cockpit). This doesn't seem to match the diagram you provided.

 

According to wikipedia: "An engine producing maximum thrust wet is at maximum power, while an engine producing maximum thrust dry is at military power.[2]"

 

So... ... .... I'm confused still. There is quite a range of throttle travel between the mark "Mil" and the mark "Max" in the F-14 cockpit. That can't ALL be military power, since maximum dry thrust isn't achieved until you throttle up to right at (or just before) the Max line.

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Hi,

If you notice in the real bird, the throttles must be moved to the left at the detents to put the engines in idle at startup and afterburner in flight. Mil power is any setting between idle and afterburner - or wep in older planes. If you hear the term "Buster," you are being directed to proceed at maximum military power, that is as fast as you can go without going into afterburner.

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Hi,

If you notice in the real bird, the throttles must be moved to the left at the detents to put the engines in idle at startup and afterburner in flight. Mil power is any setting between idle and afterburner - or wep in older planes. If you hear the term "Buster," you are being directed to proceed at maximum military power, that is as fast as you can go without going into afterburner.

 

Ok cool, that helps. Mil power is any setting between idle and afterburner/wep. Thanks!

 

 

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Hi,

If you notice in the real bird, the throttles must be moved to the left at the detents to put the engines in idle at startup and afterburner in flight. Mil power is any setting between idle and afterburner - or wep in older planes. If you hear the term "Buster," you are being directed to proceed at maximum military power, that is as fast as you can go without going into afterburner.

Really? I always thought mil means max dry thrust? :huh:

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Option 1) Mil power is maximum throttle before lighting afterburner, which is maximum dry thrust.

 

Option 2) Mil power is any throttle position between idle and max. Buster is maximum dry thrust. Max power is afterburner wet thrust. Gate is maximum afterburner wet thrust.

 

The F14 sim throttle is labeled and matches option 2. However the diagram of the real throttle "seems" to support option 1.

 

Punk says it's option 2. I assume he has knowledge of this. I don't know. I'm going with what he said until there's a different argument presented.

 

 

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NATOPS mentions that MIL position is only to indicate where the detent starts. Of course MAX is the position where max dry thrust is achieved (military thrust), while anything over MAX is AB.

 

Here's one from HB manual:

http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/_images/throttles-schem1.png

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My mind is trying to calculus this and I'm basically crashing and burning. NATOPS says the cat throttle's "mil" mark means where the detent starts. Which decent? The one from off to idle, or from dry to wet?

 

If you look at the tomcat throttle in the sim, it's marked off, idle, mil, and max. Off to idle is a very small travel path and thankfully has a simulated detent. Idle to Max is dry thrust, and appears to be labeled as mil power for the entire travel path. AB kicks in just after max and is also a very small travel path but has no detent simulated.

 

I understand what's happening in relation to the markings on the actual sim throttle, but it's not matching diagrams or lingo..... Making me a tad confused. Punks description at least matches the cockpit


Edited by Relic

 

 

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Military Rated Thrust (MRT) or Mil Power is the most power the engine will produce without AB and is usually allowed for 30 minutes. At any RPM/TIT/EPR setting beyond the Max Continuous or Normal thrust limits, the Mil power limits apply. In a fast jet Mil thrust occurs at the mil power detent. Beyond that detent is the afterburner range, starting at min AB just over the mil detent to max AB at the forward stop. Older jets used to move the throttle outboard to select burner, but in most modern jets AB is past the mil detent.

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Military Rated Thrust (MRT) or Mil Power is the most power the engine will produce without AB and is usually allowed for 30 minutes. At any RPM/TIT/EPR setting beyond the Max Continuous or Normal thrust limits, the Mil power limits apply. In a fast jet Mil thrust occurs at the mil power detent. Beyond that detent is the afterburner range, starting at min AB just over the mil detent to max AB at the forward stop. Older jets used to move the throttle outboard to select burner, but in most modern jets AB is past the mil detent.

 

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand yet. Why do the markings on the F-14 sim throttle not match what you're saying? And why is Punk's description of military power and "buster" contradictory to what you're saying?

 

 

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I think everyone here is saying the same thing here and I don't see any contradictions.

 

Max dry or Mil power are the same thing just different vernacular. The Aircraft has a detent that you push the throttle through to get the engines into the AB range .

 

As to the markings in the Jet I am not sure that anyone would care too much as it's not like you are gonna look at it while flying .

 

Buster as well as meaning go to Max dry also has another meaning if you are a wingman flying close formation and are hitting the mil detent to keep up with lead then you call "2's buster" to get him to give you a bit throttle to play with.

 

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So your position is the sim throttle was labeled incorrectly? Or was the lingo different when the tomcat was developed?

 

I have one guy saying military power describes the range from idle to Max, and others saying it only describes the max dry thrust. The diagrams support the latter, but the throttle supports the former.

 

This is why I'm asking lol.

 

Also I do look at the throttle from time to time since I have no detent.

 

 

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Ok got ya.

 

Mil power means max dry as in you push the throttle to the detent but not through it.

 

It's tough in the sim if you don't have a detent to feel the Max dry limit. Warthog is pretty good for that with the 3D printed part.

 

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That still doesn't explain why it's labeled different in the F-14 though.

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That still doesn't explain why it's labeled different in the F-14 though.

 

Is it? Without trying it out in the sim, I'd expect Mil marks the max dry thrust position and anything above that is afterburner, while Max shows the maximum afterburner (and thus throttle movement) position.

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Is it? Without trying it out in the sim, I'd expect Mil marks the max dry thrust position and anything above that is afterburner, while Max shows the maximum afterburner (and thus throttle movement) position.

The post that started this thread:

As I understand it, "mil" power means "military power" and refers to throttle position at its highest just before afterburner.

 

In the tomcat cockpit however, the throttle is marked "mil" about a 1/3 of the way up, and then "max" just before afterburner.

 

Am I reading this incorrectly, or was the lingo different when the Cat was developed?

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I get what is going on here. To The OP @Relic

 

 

 

The MIL marking "appears" half way up the throttle range, but it's not suggesting MIL is halfway up the "entire" throttle range, the words just appear so that in 100% dry thrust the words appear in a more appropriate place to be read, at the back of where the throttle stop would be.

 

After moving the throttle through the "gate", a bit like a gear stick into first gear on a right hand drive, the travel continues into wet thrust, for quite a long way. But I'd say this was only slightly optical illusion, slightly the printed word statement and mostly just about how long the travel is after the gate. There's nothing really 'wrong'.

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I get what is going on here. To The OP @Relic

 

 

 

The MIL marking "appears" half way up the throttle range, but it's not suggesting MIL is halfway up the "entire" throttle range, the words just appear so that in 100% dry thrust the words appear in a more appropriate place to be read, at the back of where the throttle stop would be.

 

After moving the throttle through the "gate", a bit like a gear stick into first gear on a right hand drive, the travel continues into wet thrust, for quite a long way. But I'd say this was only slightly optical illusion, slightly the printed word statement and mostly just about how long the travel is after the gate. There's nothing really 'wrong'.

 

I appreciate the response.

 

I hope y'all can understand my confusion. I'm a cnc machinist and a philosophy student, not an aviator by trade. My mind works a certain way... So when I see the throttle marked " Mil" at the halfway point, and see terminology state that "mil" is max dry thrust, but my throttle doesnt translate max dry thrust until the "max" line, it becomes a large tick on my brain because there's a contradiction here.

 

Is the f14 throttle mislabeled? I'm willing to accept this, but I'd like a definite answer lol. Is it mislabeled in the sim? Or was in sloppily labeled in the aircraft? Is there a real world manual I can read to find the answer?

 

Edit: I understand your logic that it could be labeled in that position for ease of reading, so as not to have "mil" marked next to "max", but I'm just wondering if that's truly the case. Just seems odd to me because things are quite deliberately designed on an aircraft. The placement of switchology is quite logical given what systems you use on the ground typically vs in the air typically, in conjunction with which hand should use them. So to have a sloppy throttle label seems odd


Edited by Relic

 

 

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Ok another thought entered my mind after re-examining the throttle diagram on pg 37 of the manual (1.0 version): is the throttle, or thrust, or engine animation bugged? The markings on the sim throttle correspond to the markings on the diagram. But what doesnt correspond is thrust behavior. I am not entering wet thrust immediately after the MIL mark as the diagram clearly states. I'm only entering afterburner at the very top end of the throttle travel path.

 

Edit to add pic of the manual. Shows throttle and throttle diagram. As I understand it, afterburner should be visible from outside and should activate the heatblur custom in cockpit afterburner sound. Except neither afterburner lighting nor sound activate until around the MAX line at the top of the throttle path.

Screenshot_20191010-142652.thumb.png.9e5b299d0990a27941ad22e6a63e4db6.png


Edited by Relic

 

 

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Question about the F-14 throttle and general fighter lingo

 

I’m thinking the throttle animation doesn’t match with the actual demand in the sim. It should be a bug. However, I’m not sure if this may be a DCS limitation or not. The MIL label should correspond with the MIL position as pictured. Same as Max should correspond to Max position. Only way to verify that is by throttle angles that match the diagrams for the labeling.

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Eagle7907

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Question about the F-14 throttle and general fighter lingo

 

It should be lit. Beyond Mil should be introduction of fuel into the AB stage. That fuel isn’t going to just disappear.

 

Again an animation inaccuracy.

 

From someone in the know:

 

The AB fuel control splits fuel flow into three metered streams (local, core, and fan) on a sequential basis into the AB manifolds for distribution through spraybars in the AB duct. Throttle commands initiate local fuel flow and AB ignition (minimum afterburner). Once local fuel flow and flame are established, core fuel flow commences. As maximum core fuel flow is established, fan fuel flow commences and increases until maximum AB is achieved. The transitions between local, core, and fan fuel flow are smooth and unnoticed. During non-AB operation, fuel flow is circulated through the AB manifolds to prevent thrust lags and surges when AB is initiated.

 

Max position should correspond with Max AB.

 

 

Addendum:

 

It looks like the AB should start working once out of MIL, however it is limited to Max by certain altitudes and airspeeds. So going full forward on the throttles will yield different results based on if you are high altitude/slow airspeed regime. So based on if you’re high and slow, going to Max will give you the maximum the engines can allow based on the reduction schedule. If you have a certain manual, it has a graph to illustrate.

 

 

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Edited by Eagle7907

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