2.5.5.37626 PATCH, Acceleration and fuel consumption have been greatly improved.

[Hyundae]

Thank you for DCS developers !

[Donut]

Yep, very noticeable for sure! It performs much more like I think an F-16 would...I am sure much more knowledgeable people on here will be able to verify this performance compared to the real thing.

[Sandman1330]

Yup, she seems able to sustain a 9g turn now at 420-450kts. A total rocket!

 

My biggest problem dogfighting it now is blackout - the pilot’s low G tolerance means I can’t utilize the 9g capability, it’s effectively a 7.5g aircraft with the ability to briefly hit 9g. This marginalizes the aircraft’s greatest strength...

[Rudel_chw]

My biggest problem dogfighting it now is blackout - the pilot’s low G tolerance ...

 

You seem to forget what actually sustaining 9G is like for a pilot, 7.5G sustained doesnt seem like a low limit to me:

 

J1O0Q3Y0Yrw

[Mover]

You seem to forget what actually sustaining 9G is like for a pilot, 7.5G sustained doesnt seem like a low limit to me:

 

J1O0Q3Y0Yrw

 

It's a lot easier with ATAGS now, but if we couldn't sustain 9Gs, we'd never be able to properly employ the Viper. It sucks, but you get used to it.

[bies]

Yup, she seems able to sustain a 9g turn now at 420-450kts. A total rocket!

 

My biggest problem dogfighting it now is blackout - the pilot’s low G tolerance means I can’t utilize the 9g capability, it’s effectively a 7.5g aircraft with the ability to briefly hit 9g. This marginalizes the aircraft’s greatest strength...

 

 

From official DCS page:

"Nicknamed the Viper by its pilots, the F-16 was designed with a reclined seating position for high G tolerance and a single-piece bubble canopy for exceptional visibility and comfort."

 

So i guess it will be able to squeeze 9G without instant G-lock in the future but now it's the Early Access so many features are WIP. Now Viper may not have advantage over i.e. Hornet due to G-Lock before 9G but in the future when devs are modeling it more in depth it will be 9G fighter able to utilize it's strenghts.:thumbup:

[Davee]

My understanding of G onset is that 9G sustained is a difficult issue for the pilot , yet 9G instantaneous turn is doable a number of times.

 

Adjustments for blackout might need evaluation by the Devs here.

[McRuffen]

This Gripen pilot pulls 9G for 10+ seconds at 5:35 into the video:

 

 

So blacking out almost immediately at anything above 7-7.5G does not seem realistic. Of course G-limits vary from plane to plane as well as from pilot to pilot. In a WW2 fighter without a G-suit, one should not expect the same G tolerance as in an F-16 with G-suit and the reclined seat.

Edited October 12, 2019 by McRuffen

[Mover]

My understanding of G onset is that 9G sustained is a difficult issue for the pilot , yet 9G instantaneous turn is doable a number of times.

 

Adjustments for blackout might need evaluation by the Devs here.

 

The centrifuge profile for an F-16 pilot is rapid onset (6.0G/sec) up to 9Gs and hold for 15 seconds.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Yes just say it: time to bring some RPG elements into DCS: G-tolerance being a "skill" you can level up :thumbup:

Or else, G-tolerance being in a direct relationship with the amount of flight hours in the Logbook :pilotfly::joystick:

[Archaic]

This monster holds 9G for 30 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0nbRYIBVDQ

[bies]

The centrifuge profile for an F-16 pilot is rapid onset (6.0G/sec) up to 9Gs and hold for 15 seconds.

 

So now we are definitely far far away even from standard centrifugal profile for the Viper. :) But probably it's just because of Early Access.:thumbup:

[bkthunder]

No, it's because the G-tolerance across the whole sim is far from realistic, and it has been asked a number of times to update it. Everytime someone posts about it, it swiftly gets moved to the "General questions" forum.

 

This is not a wish, it's an issue that DCS has had for a long time, and people really start to notice it thanks to the F-16, which is pretty much handicapped because of this (as is the F-15).

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=251891

[MAXsenna]

Yes just say it: time to bring some RPG elements into DCS: G-tolerance being a "skill" you can level up

Or else, G-tolerance being in a direct relationship with the amount of flight hours in the Logbook :pilotfly::joystick:

 

Yes just say it: time to bring some RPG elements into DCS: G-tolerance being a "skill" you can level up

:

 

 

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[gitbse]

From official DCS page:

"Nicknamed the Viper by its pilots, the F-16 was designed with a reclined seating position for high G tolerance and a single-piece bubble canopy for exceptional visibility and comfort."

 

So i guess it will be able to squeeze 9G without instant G-lock in the future but now it's the Early Access so many features are WIP. Now Viper may not have advantage over i.e. Hornet due to G-Lock before 9G but in the future when devs are modeling it more in depth it will be 9G fighter able to utilize it's strenghts.:thumbup:

 

 

Red bull pilots are limited to 10 or 11 for competition, and get DQ'd of they pass it. They also dont wear Gsuits, they pretty much show the limits of human performance in aircraft

[Harker]

I remember reading in a thread that G warm-up is actually modeled to an extent, but I haven't tested it myself. Might be worth checking out.

[SimHog]

This is one I remembered from a few years back.

 

${1}

[Steve Davies]

Passenger pulling 9g without any problem:

 

${1}

 

As Mover has already confirmed, the sim is too conservative in modeling blackout. Love the new addition of the hearing going, though!

[sk000tch]

Passenger pulling 9g without any problem:

 

...

 

As Mover has already confirmed, the sim is too conservative in modeling blackout. Love the new addition of the hearing going, though!

 

I agree and disagree with Mover (gasp).

 

I agree it’s too conservative, but I’ve never seen a passenger take 9G. Definitely not the norm. 9 is a lot... the difference between 9 and 5 is much larger than the difference from 5 to 1. 5Gs is barely more than a roller coaster, most passengers are laughing and having fun. 9Gs is a punishing battle to remain conscious. I’ve taken a lot of pilots and non-pilots up for their first unusual attitude/spin recovery training or a 3rd date joyride, and the vast majority get real uncomfortable real quick above 4-5Gs, and even then after a few maneuvers the effects accumulate, the laughing stops and they start fumbling trying to open air vents. Even trained pilots... though tolerance is very individual, some can just naturally take more. Most untrained people will not last 10 seconds at 7G.

 

I’ve thought a lot about how DCS does or does not model certain aspects of how G forces effect pilots. They don’t, for example, model jerk or the less than full g-loc physiological effects, fatigue, recovery time, push-pull, etc., and as a result the effect feels generic and unrealistic. Every pilot is different, and tolerance comes with time (and vice versa). But all bullshit aside, every fighter pilot is gonna say it’s too conservative, that they could take 10G for 20 seconds in nothing but shorts and flip flops. ED has to pick an average somewhere, but it’s not a black and white conscious/unconscious thing... so rather than debate the absolute limit, I think there’s a lot they could do to enhance realism.

 

First, in DCS it’s like a hard limit. At x amount of Gs = g-loc, but in reality it’s more like 18 seconds at x-2, 14 seconds at x-1, 10 seconds at x, etc. it takes 8-10 seconds under extreme loads to black out. You lose color vision quickly, and peripheral will progressively narrow, but you’ve got enough O2 in your blood to keep the brain working for 8-10 seconds even if you can’t pump any up there.

 

My days of high sustained Gs are over but I still fly competition acro at anywhere from +11 to -6 or so regularly. Somebody said something about Red Bull above, basically same thing just higher altitude and more technical maneuvers, no giant inflatable pylons... same planes though. Most are certI died to between +/-10 and 12, hence the limit. But with maneuvering speeds half that of an f-16, the duration is much shorter. For comparison, I can reverse via half Cuban or split S at 11G in under 4 seconds (iirc the Red Bull races usually have a half Cuban, I’m sure there’s a vid somewhere). It’s a leg/ab squeezing heavy grunting 4 seconds, but it’s over so fast that I lose color vis but nowhere near tunnel vision, and recover quite quickly. Like everyone though, I do experience fatigue. DCS has improved its grey to g-loc effect lately, but fatigue plays a big role that would be cool to have simulated in game.

 

It’s difficult to convey how physically demanding BFM is. High G physio effects require recovery time, and they accumulate. When you combine the physical exhaustion with the cumulative effect of repeated high G maneuvers, a pilot that can handle a 8G turn for, say, 15 seconds at the merge, after several minutes of rapid onset, violent reversals, and high sustained Gs, that same pilot may be able to take half that. Again, I agree that generally g-loc comes on too quickly in DCS, but I’m sure that’s relatively easy to adjust. What would be more interesting and do more to improve realism is if they added some of the other effects besides full loss of consciousness. I mentioned recovery before. So, after the 10-15s black screen you should not come back at 100% mental/visual/physical acuity, immediately able to acquire the horizon, have perfect SA... and sure as hell shouldn’t be able to finish pulling out of that dive you were in while you’re supposed to be out cold. But beyond that, the cumulative effect and fatigue I described earlier should play a roll.

 

I’m not a doctor so forgive me if I hack the technical language, but under G the sort of order things go is color vision very quickly, then more gradually peripheral vision, then you start feeling the lack of blood, you’re looking through straws on edge of g-loc. color and periphery matter... consider the 14 or 18 engaged over blue water. Horizon and altitude are more difficult to track and visually estimate over water. Tracking horizon is somehow related to your peripheral vision. Blue sky over ocean ain’t the brown and blue of Nevada. Would be cool if they could incorporate that degraded spacial awareness, perhaps some visual effect that blurs the horizon contrast. Unfortunately not like they can simulate the confusion and mental effects, but something is better than nothing.

 

Also, most fighters aren’t built to take negative Gs, but it seems like even moderate negs cause a ringing and, well, I don’t remember but I know the game does something. I don’t think it should... Compound outside maneuvers are all the rage these days, so I can personally attest to the physiology. High negatives are unpleasant, and while sore shoulders (from harness) and bruised knees from bracing against instrument cluster, and occasionally some broken blood vessels causing red spots on your eyes are unavoidable, provided the jet can take it, most military pilots should be able to handle negative G to the airframe limit with no more than a light headache, so I don’t see why the sim should model it. some guys claim their vision gets a bit foggy, and I’ve heard old wives tale type stories of pilots who have issues with their lower eyelids pushing up over their eyes for a red-out like effect, but I’ve never experienced that or know any one that has. I’d just take it out of the sim, personally.

 

I guess my basic point is that it’s much more interesting and complex than x seconds at >y Gs = blackout, pilots are trained to mitigate it as an essential aspect of good BFM. Push pull maneuvers, for example. Transitioning from even light negative G abruptly to high positive G can induce immediate loss of consciousness, it’s somewhat rare, but it happens. Smooth control inputs to keep jerk low, not ham fisted stick and rudder work with wild oscillations in G. these matter IrL, would be cool if they mattered in the sim. Theres a lot like this that they could do to improve realism and add another layer of complexity/skill to the sim, which to me is more important than whether screen goes black often 8 seconds or 9...

[Rainmaker]

I agree and disagree with Mover (gasp).

 

I agree it’s too conservative, but I’ve never seen a passenger take 9G. Definitely not the norm. 9 is a lot... the difference between 9 and 5 is much larger than the difference from 5 to 1. 5Gs is barely more than a roller coaster, most passengers are laughing and having fun. 9Gs is a punishing battle to remain conscious. I’ve taken a lot of pilots and non-pilots up for their first unusual attitude/spin recovery training or a 3rd date joyride, and the vast majority get real uncomfortable real quick above 4-5Gs, and even then after a few maneuvers the effects accumulate, the laughing stops and they start fumbling trying to open air vents. Even trained pilots... though tolerance is very individual, some can just naturally take more. Most untrained people will not last 10 seconds at 7G.

 

 

 

Just my opinion but...

 

I know a bunch a folks in the maintenance community that have hit 9G, or really close to. I can't actually think of anyone off the top of my head that has passed out. It's pretty much a right of passage for those that are lucky enough to get a ride. I'm sure Mover or someone that has been sitting front seat could spit out some sort of average of those that can get there and ones that don't...I really have no idea. I've also known a few to basically puke on takeoff and force guys to burn gas for an hour just to land. I don't "know" this as fact, but I would say the suite has a pretty big influence on that. By the time you get to 4-5G, it's on you pretty good, and I dare say, it might be one of the more uncomfortable parts of getting a ride, specially the part that sits right across your bladder.

 

With that being said, I think there's a lot more factors at play than just the G. Not that hard, in my opinion, to know it's coming, tense everything up, look straight forward as a passenger, and just concentrate on not loosing it. It would be completely different to hold that, concentrate, fly the jet, keep your eyes on someone else, and not loose it. I got to a bit over 7 on my ride (different jet, tanks..bit of a slug) before we were on the beeper and it just wouldn't maintain any more. No tunnel vision, no color loss...just a lot of straining and not the most comfortable experience between the G and the suit. I also flew most of that with my mask off my face. Sure, he could have snapped on 9G just to say we got there, but he also could have over-G'd, broke the jet, and we may have had to go home early too. I ended up with a 1.3, so I'll take that and be perfectly happy. It hurts, I'll attest to that, but it wasn't that awful. What was awful was only doing 4-5G in defensive BFM doing gun jinks. That probably hurt worse than the sustained pull, and there's just absolutely no way I would have been able to actually look over my shoulder and do what these guys do on a daily basis...not happening.

 

I also bought into that "well, 4Gs is the same as a roller coaster". Like hell it is :) . The .5 seconds you might be there on a rollar coaster is no comparison to being there for 10 seconds.

[Mezelf]

This monster holds 9G for 30 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0nbRYIBVDQ

 

 

Notice how in free-flight mode, he never went up to 9G and only momentarily up to 8G. Even though he proved he can do 9G just moment before, when he himself is in control he doesn't seek it out.

Everyone's taking this video as justification for upping the sustained G-tolerance for the "average DCS pilot", instead of acknowledging it as an extraordinary accomplishment that should not be extrapolated to all fighter pilots.

[sk000tch]

Just my opinion but...

 

I know a bunch a folks in the maintenance community that have hit 9G, or really close to. I can't actually think of anyone off the top of my head that has passed out. It's pretty much a right of passage for those that are lucky enough to get a ride. I'm sure Mover or someone that has been sitting front seat could spit out some sort of average of those that can get there and ones that don't...I really have no idea. I've also known a few to basically puke on takeoff and force guys to burn gas for an hour just to land. I don't "know" this as fact, but I would say the suite has a pretty big influence on that. By the time you get to 4-5G, it's on you pretty good, and I dare say, it might be one of the more uncomfortable parts of getting a ride, specially the part that sits right across your bladder.

 

With that being said, I think there's a lot more factors at play than just the G. Not that hard, in my opinion, to know it's coming, tense everything up, look straight forward as a passenger, and just concentrate on not loosing it. It would be completely different to hold that, concentrate, fly the jet, keep your eyes on someone else, and not loose it. I got to a bit over 7 on my ride (different jet, tanks..bit of a slug) before we were on the beeper and it just wouldn't maintain any more. No tunnel vision, no color loss...just a lot of straining and not the most comfortable experience between the G and the suit. I also flew most of that with my mask off my face. Sure, he could have snapped on 9G just to say we got there, but he also could have over-G'd, broke the jet, and we may have had to go home early too. I ended up with a 1.3, so I'll take that and be perfectly happy. It hurts, I'll attest to that, but it wasn't that awful. What was awful was only doing 4-5G in defensive BFM doing gun jinks. That probably hurt worse than the sustained pull, and there's just absolutely no way I would have been able to actually look over my shoulder and do what these guys do on a daily basis...not happening.

 

I also bought into that "well, 4Gs is the same as a roller coaster". Like hell it is :) . The .5 seconds you might be there on a rollar coaster is no comparison to being there for 10 seconds.

 

Just came back to read my post, was a little worried what i wrote but wasn't too bad. I wrote that rambling novel while laying on the couch watching football well medicated as the myelopathy in my neck is flaring up... Ironically it's from neck extension and rotation (check six) under G. If I gave the impression my POV was from the back seat looking straight forward that's my bad, chalk it up to the rambling incoherence.

 

I used the roller coaster e a ample just for people that have no basis of comparison, but emphasized the difference between momentary and sustained, and particularly jerk. I don't disagree with anything you've said other than how the body reacts to Gs, but everyone is different. If you've only been up a few times you might not have realized, as you said it's different when you're along for the ride. Your eyes need constant O2 to see color, it's the first thing to go. You notice vision effects a lot more when you're trying to avoid task overload and maintain SA, or keep a perfect vertical through a couple 8pt rolls. Tolerance helps as well, that 4-5 that was on you pretty good becomes quite routine,

 

I have no f-16 time thougb, so can't really speak to it specifically. But from a purely stick and rudder perspective, the jets I've flown were kittens relative to WWII warbirds or modern unlimited Class acros. Obviously not in terms of speed and certainly not system complexity (though most are certified to more max G), but pilot stuff takes a back seat (heh) to the job, rather than pure pilot skill being the job. I can take a non-pilot up and show them a 8G pull, they’ll grunt a bit then laugh their ass off and spend the rest of the day “OMG that was crazy it felt like my face was getting pulled off!” or whatever. I’ve also taken guys with 2,000 hrs up, fly a few rollers and they’re cracking open vents and I’m giving the “it’s easier to wash a hoodie than a cockpit” speech (i.e. puke in your shirt not my plane dude).

 

The difference is a high G turn or pull from vertical, while more in magnitude, is pure positive G, and the brain understands what it's seeing and feeling. Rollers depending on speed max about 4G maybe 5G, but through the turn it’s constantly oscillating positive to negative and yawing in both directions. If hou're not familiar with what I mean, a

. It would take a book to describe the control inputs required to keep the nose moving through that turn (much less with no altitude change and constant roll rate), but you can imagine that as you transition to knife edge, inverted and outside you've gone through multiple cycles of full rudder deflection in both directions, at times for lift, others to keep the nose moving, same with elevator. Paul's actually got some good vids in his channel of unknown sequences and such I'm watching now, good pilot.

 

Im not sure what we're even talking about anymore. I think it had to do with me taking offense at something but I don't remember what. My neck hurts and it's time for meds though. But ya, DCS is a little conservative... And I'm no ****ing mechanic ;)

[sk000tch]

Notice how in free-flight mode, he never went up to 9G and only momentarily up to 8G. Even though he proved he can do 9G just moment before, when he himself is in control he doesn't seek it out.

Everyone's taking this video as justification for upping the sustained G-tolerance for the "average DCS pilot", instead of acknowledging it as an extraordinary accomplishment that should not be extrapolated to all fighter pilots.

 

That dude should not be used as a basis for average anything, he is a beast. Again, I have never Calculated or paid attention to exactly what the line is in DCS, just opining that in my experience it feels abrupt and conservative. My point was more about the fatigue and exhaustion of BFM, and considering ways to make DCS more immedsive in that respect.

 

A good analogy would be when the Hornet inlet ice caution would come on at 18k ft no matter what the circumstance. Makes sense sometimes, but on a blue bird day in PG feels a bit out of place

[Pikey]

In summary... a little bit more tolerance across the board in DCS, and an extra bonus of "tiring" would be nice for multiplayer.

 

 

I think the "gameplay" element of fatigue would add something to multiplayer, if at least to stop these very long 2C's continue until fuel runs dry.

[max22]

the only change was fuel consumption. performance/acceleration are same.