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Nellis Charts for year 2011


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I noticed that there are a lot of FLIPs/charts around for Nellis. There are excellent FLIPs made by vJABOG66 and the 476th VFG. None of them seem to be accurate for the year 2011 though. The FLIPs from the v476th are correct in terms of the radials/DMEs I verified, but the material is not as extensive as the FLIP from the vJABOG66 and there are pixelated charts which isn't good for printing in high resolution or having readible kneeboard pages based on.

 

I mostly wonder about the naming of the procedures. For instance, from what I could find, the FYTTR TWO departure became active in the year 2014. Before that it was FYTTR ONE. I'm not sure though, what was before FYTTR ONE and when FYTTR ONE became active. However, 476th and jabog66 both have FYTTR THREE/FOUR in their FLIPs which became active some time after 2015.

 

Does someone have the actual procedures/charts from 2011. I could only find those from 2014 and 2016. An AFI11-250 for NELLIS AFB from the year 2011 would be excellent.

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More interesting is: FYTTR ONE has FYTTR with DME 267/33 and FYTTR TWO has that navpoint with DME 270/33. Neither of those charts is correct (269/33). The question now is: Did the USAF pilots fly with the incorrect DMEs from FYTTR ONE?

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More interesting is: FYTTR ONE has FYTTR with DME 267/33 and FYTTR TWO has that navpoint with DME 270/33. Neither of those charts is correct (269/33). The question now is: Did the USAF pilots fly with the incorrect DMEs from FYTTR ONE?

 

If you are taking the Radial DME from actual departure plates, they were 100% correct...when they those procedures were in effect. Air Force pilots use current FLIP provided by the FAA and review those procedures prior to takeoff.

 

The procedures contained in the Current flip are correct for any flights that day. Radial/DME fixes, you name it can change from one FLIP to the next for a variety of reasons. But just because FYTTR ONE, TWO, THREE and FOUR have different fix points doesn't mean they were wrong. They are just different from the latest which is the FYTTR FIVE. departure.

 

Current can be found here:

 

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KLSV

 

And the current FYTTR FIVE departure indicates 270/33

 

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1911/00227FYTTR.PDF

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Let me rephrase. I suppose those charts have been correct at one time in the past (or are correct for the current ones).

 

However, let's look at the historical/calculated data of the magnetic declination for the FYTTR navpoint. Let's assume that the FYTTR navpoint has always been at the following coordinates as it is advertised by several documents throughout the past:

 

N 36 21.44 W 115 41.47

 

According to the Magnetic declination calculator the following magnetic declinations have been at this point over the past years (all data for July 1st of that year):

 

2004: 13° 14.52' East

2005: 13° 08.34' East

2006: 13° 01.92' East

2007: 12° 55.50' East

2008: 12° 49.08' East

2009: 12° 42.66' East

2010: 12° 36.24' East

2011: 12° 29.88' East

2012: 12° 23.52' East

2013: 12° 17.16' East

2014: 12° 10.74' East

2015: 12° 04.92' East

2016: 11° 59.70' East

2017: 11° 54.48' East

2018: 11° 49.26' East

2019: 11° 43.98' East

 

Now, according to DCS ME the FYTTR point is at 281° true heading at 33 nautical miles of the Nellis TCN beacon.

 

Applying the magnetic declination from the year of 2011 (which ED has chosen to take the magnetic declination data from for DCS) the magnetic heading would be 169°. This would be the same for the years from 2010 to 2014.

 

FYTTR ONE was using DME 267/33 which would date this departure at around 2000. FYTTR TWO is supposed to have DME 268/33 for the years thereafter until DME 269/33 should have been valid around 2011 with at least FYTTR THREE.

 

The Red Flag IFG from the DCS documents area lists FYTTR ONE. The NellisAFB Instructions NELLIS AFB11-250 from 2016 mentions FYTTR TWO together with FYTTR LOW (and shows DME for FYTTR at 270/33).

 

So there is a jump from 267 to 270 with nothing in between and this is what I'm struggling with. I would like to compile a proper FLIP for 2011 with the correct DMEs for this year as it is simulated and I would love to use the proper departure names as they were active and valid during this period.

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I noticed that there are a lot of FLIPs/charts around for Nellis. There are excellent FLIPs made by vJABOG66 and the 476th VFG. None of them seem to be accurate for the year 2011 though. [...]

 

Just for clarification, ours specifically covers:

 

EFFECTIVE DCS MISSIONDATE
FROM 2016-08-01 TO 2016-08-31

 

(It's the date the squad was founded).

 

Applying the magnetic declination from the year of 2011 (which ED has chosen to take the magnetic declination data from for DCS) the magnetic heading would be 169°. This would be the same for the years from 2010 to 2014.

 

I'm probably understanding you wrong, but if you're saying the magnetic variation in DCS is a fixed value, I believe it is not. At least the

 

C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Data\MagVar\

 

folder indicates that this data is potentially correct for five year intervals reaching back into the 80s.

 

As for the FYTTR departure (as an example), we initially used FYTTR FOUR but then realized that back in late 2016 FYTTR THREE was the proper procedure and adjusted our documents accordingly (there were some other procedures that had been updated by the time we were doing our own FLIP). I think it's going to stay that way for a long time, because adjusting these radials every couple of months is a hell of a lot of work, plus: even DCS doesn't know how it's going to change in the future. ;)

So for the foreseeable future, the vJaBoG 66 FLIP NV will remain valid for a DCS mission date in August 2016 only.

 

In any case, those discrepancies in the RL documents seem very interesting. I sort of imagine these being created from Excel sheets, Access databases, notes scribbled on a piece of paper, and the memory of a few people who dedicate their careers to getting the most accurate data out there to the pilots - until they retire and someone has to make sense of it all... :D

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]The Red Flag IFG from the DCS documents arealists FYTTR ONE. The NellisAFB Instructions NELLIS AFB11-250 from 2016 mentions FYTTR TWO together with FYTTR LOW (and shows DME for FYTTR at 270/33)..

 

Ahhhh there is the rub...in flight guides are not FLIP. In fact any inflight guide that has specific departures and arrivals present will have a disclaimer advising to "check current flip prior to flying". Those inflight guides are copied and reused as much as possible to save time.

 

Unless you are looking at copies of actual departure procedures for the periods in question...the best you'll get is a guesstimation..

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Our 476th vFG Nevada FLIP covers 2011...

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=405

 

Yes, amongst the community produced charts, yours are most accurate for the year 2011 in terms of radials. Still, there are some pixelated ones which are not ideal to read or for printout and I'm still struggling with the procedure names though. All charts I have seen so far from the community have been edited (name changes, frequency changes, radial changes).

 

I am interestend in the original charts during the year 2011.


Edited by dcs76
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Just for clarification, ours specifically covers:

 

EFFECTIVE DCS MISSIONDATE
FROM 2016-08-01 TO 2016-08-31

...

 

I was actually missing that particular detail. I was not aware that DCS simulates the magnetic variance for different years. I always thought the state of the year 2011 was simulated. I will have a look at the files you mentioned and double check this.

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Ahhhh there is the rub...in flight guides are not FLIP. In fact any inflight guide that has specific departures and arrivals present will have a disclaimer advising to "check current flip prior to flying". Those inflight guides are copied and reused as much as possible to save time.

 

Unless you are looking at copies of actual departure procedures for the periods in question...the best you'll get is a guesstimation..

 

Yes I noticed the note on the IFG that FLIP should be checked for current charts. I just assumed that FYTTR TWO would have had the radial 270. As I have actually not seen the original FYTTR TWO chart, it could be that this chart is using the 269 radial. FYTTR TWO was active during 2014 and the magnetic declination is close enough to that of 2011.

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Ok, the magnetic declination is changing in DCS based on the date. It also seems that the values are quite close to the results from the magnetic declination calculator. So this clarifies at least that part ;-)

 

Edit: After testing a few more values ... after 2016 the magnetic declinations in DCS are more and more deviating from the correct ones. It's probably because the declination drift has been increasing in the past 4 to 5 years and ED have not yet been incorporated any recent data than 2015. So even when I set the current date in DCS, the radial 269 is still the most accurate one for FYTTR.


Edited by dcs76
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Edit: After testing a few more values ... after 2016 the magnetic declinations in DCS are more and more deviating from the correct ones. It's probably because the declination drift has been increasing in the past 4 to 5 years and ED have not yet been incorporated any recent data than 2015.

 

Thanks for the tests, good to know! :thumbup:

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