Need some buying advice for first modules

[Pally]

F-5E, then F-14B!

 

Hi there.

 

So I have got into dcs recently and am loving learning the basics with the frogfoot. Ive been excited to invest some money into the game having enjoyed some flights with the free planes. But I’m having a lot of conflicting thoughts that I’d like advice on.

 

1: I want a clickable cockpit cause that realism and immersion excites me, also I’ll be getting a rift s at the end of the year and think a full fidelity module will be great for that

Conflict: however I’m worried about the depth and the sheer amount of investment to learn them might stop me from simply flying And enjoying the simulator.

 

2: I want to get modules that give me a good mix of a2a a2g and also carrier landings and takeoffs as I love that extra challenge. This doesn’t have to happen right away, but that’s what i want to end up with.

Conflict: If I was to go full fidelity to cover the above three, it would probably stretch me to thin in terms of learning it all.

 

3:Fc3 seems like the right choice in regards to both of the above points, in terms of range of gameplay and value. But I also want good tutorial missions so am worried fc3 might not be as good in that regard compared to the a10c for example.

Conflict: I really love the idea of a clickable cockpit (which would be missing in FC3) with an indepth startup and really feeling like a pilot before a mission. Especially for VR.

 

4: and most importantly. I have no plans to play multiplayer. Me free time is way too inconsistent and I’m just someone who loves playing on their own. So I’m wanting to go with the modules with the most singplayer content, campaigns both dlc and user made. I will also love getting into the editor and enjoy creating my own scenarios (I’m a unity developer and coder and can’t wait to get stuck in).

Conflict: the clear winner for single player content is the a10c and while I love plane and know I will own it in the end. The 660 page manual is soooooo intimidating.

 

I’m sorry for this nonsense of a post. As I said I’m super conflicted and don’t know what the right decision is.

 

I will say I have a $100-150 budget so that might help with the advice. And as mentioned am only getting VR for Christmas. Also I have il-2 all three campaigns for ww2 and easier access sim flying, so maybe DCS should fill a full fidelity slot in my collection? I’m going to stop talking now.

 

Really hope you can help but would understand if this gets no replies as well :p

 

Welcome to DCS! Even before I begin contributing to your gaming experience, the first thing I must say is how the maker of this mil-sim took time to LISTEN and CONSIDER their constituents' wishes and requests. This approach to a product is very admirable, and will keep me as their satisfied customer. Personally, I started DCS in May of this year, and the way I approached this with limited time on my hands (two kids, working nights 3 of 7 days, yeah, I had not much time either; nonetheless, I make the best of it... FYI, lots of reading) was learning the basics of the F-5E III, followed by a transition to the F-14B.

 

Please pardon the poor appearance of the URL Youtube link. I could not get it to post the splash screen as intended to peek your interest, friend. Sorry.

 

Now on to the sim stuff. Those research backed manuals! Yes, reading those manuals can and will be daunting. I am / we are uncertain of your prior mil-flightsim experience, but if you have played the sims of 90s, such as USNF, Strike Commander, Fleet Defender... etc, you may find those accumulated knowledge transferable to take offs and landing, as well as BFM and going Air-to-Ground (including SAM/AAA avoidance). In event you had not had those experience, you will find DCS offer an array of "academic" video series produced by DCS senior producer Matt Wagner himself available on Youtube. Check out the F/A-18C module in his channel. He made a plentiful of academic video series to satisfy your curiosity, especially if the Hornet ever peeked your interests (it peeked mine, just haven't flown it, yet). The fan-based education series of DCS videos are of a plenty from Youtube. Here is episode one where he introduce the F/A-18C.

 

Back to your original question re module selection. I would highly to go with Northrop's F-5E III, and then use the knowledge you learned from flying it (attentiveness to nose behavior at various speed/altitude for trimming aircraft, stick discipline for retaining speed, analog gauges reading instead of Flying-By-HUD, and the continual need to glance around the cockpit to maintain overall awareness [even before getting into AA/AG engagements]). Since you mentioned you will be getting into VR, here is a fine video of former fighter pilot C. J. Lemoine talking about his experience with F-5E in VR.

 

The logical second module would be, well, drum rolls... the Grumman F-14B Tomcat. The level of detail and complexity, once you get used to the F-5E, would be greatly appreciated even further. Yes, it has a big manual, but yes again, that is ok. What's the rush? Certainly you can hop back to the RIO seat and fiddle with the AWG-9 and let loose some AIM-54 for some 2000 pound justice, but heck, I will let these videos do the talking/writing ;)

 

The ease of transition in the F-14 were in owe largely to the experience from the F-5. Once you became proficient with landing/takeoffs, simple 1 V 1 against AI to practice Situation Awareness (even better with your VR goggles), it is time to transition to the Tomcat. Both were analog fighters without Fly-By-Wire. Both have limitations, except the big fighter Tomcat has no problem "... letting the pilot kill himself such as ripping the wings off, or enter a powered departure".

 

In the end, the F-5 trained me to fly and visually "feel" the plane by not relying on that HUD. It made me better and appreciate the details of a clickable cockpit from startup, jettison weapons, to shutdown. Going by this two-step series, the F-5 follows by the F-14, personally, made me appreciate ever more the increased complexity of the work of art created by Heatblur in their Grumman F-14 module. They are both breathtaking. Bar none.

 

Again, welcome, and enjoy DCS!

 

More about VR in giving an edge in Situation Awareness during AA engagements. This one is by BeastyBaiter:

.

 

Last but not least, Jabber's guide on VR in-game setting, and also recording (if that is your thing):

Edited November 30, 2019 by Pally
Correcting YouTube link.

[idrisguitar]

Wow, Thanks Ramsay for those screenshot. Looks really good! And thank you for such a details post Pally.

 

I am watching some videos and doing some reading before I make a purchase (wont have time to play significantly till near the end of the sale anyway.) And really appreciate all the input. (Hornet may still be the favourite)

 

I looked at the Tomcat the other day and it looks like an astounding module, and I love that plane. I think i will eventually own, the A10C, Hornet and Tomcat. just dont know what order I will purchase them in.

 

And the F5 certainly seems like a more beginner friendly full fidelity aircraft. I think importantly what is the single-player content like? Are the interactive tutorials good? and are the bonus campaigns worth it?

[Pally]

Re: In-game tutorials

 

Regarding in-game tutorials, I will vouch for Wag's in-game voice-over tutorials as a AAA title all by itself. In DCS, you are allowed to perform an "active pause". Meaning that that animations are paused, but the cockpit controls are still functional so as to allow you the luxury to comprehend the information provided, think what to do next, and then execute the action. Be forewarned that the active pause can cause serious and erroneous aircraft behavior once you un-pause, if in event you manipulate the flight controls (too much, especially) during the pause. Active-pause for self-learning is extremely valuable.

 

I digressed, in-game tutorials are excellent, but again, only vouch for Wag's and Heatblur's in-game tutorials--specifically its is the F-18C for the former, and latter, the F-14B.

 

Lastly, I recall you mentioned you cannot wait to use the mission editor. You can learn a tremendous amount by doing so, since you know what to expect, and can repeat the lesson over and over to hone a particular skill set.

 

Enjoy DCS!

[SmirkingGerbil]

What everyone is saying about the F/A-18C is true; however, the A-10C might be a better choice (despite the learning curve) for the following reasons:

 

1.) Survivability! All the fasties can't really take a hit, as you work through the learning curve, and you get in hot environments, be prepared to die and re-spawn many times. The A-10C will get you home, and if you can master Manual Reversion the thrill of bringing home a shot up A-10 is second to none.

 

2.) Loiter. Yes the Fasties can get there way before you, loft a few missiles for a/g mode, and run home. Meanwhile you are doing the Spooky Gunship dance for a long, long time.

 

3.) A/A mode. Nope, the A-10C can't do BVR, however, learning to use the 9X's the A-10 does have a primitive A/A mode, and I have shot down plenty of SU class aggressors. Master the EWR, Jamming module, and counter measures capability and you will be surprised just how many A/A engagements you can survive. If you do get hit with a missile, 9 times out of 10 you can limp home. The fasties drive me nuts in the regard, as soon as you are hit, 9 times out of 10, you are dead and watching your craft do a dirt dart from F2 camera view.

 

Just some extra considerations in regards to the A-10; however, the Hornet is a freaking blast in A/A mode!

Edited October 23, 2019 by SmirkingGerbil

[Ramsay]

And the F5 certainly seems like a more beginner friendly full fidelity aircraft. I think importantly what is the single-player content like? Are the interactive tutorials good? and are the bonus campaigns worth it?

 

The F-5E is a simpler aircraft but is also more difficult to use.

 

• Navigation is limited to visual and TACAN.

 

• There's no auto-pilot so it's harder to control when heads down adjusting radios, etc.

 

• It's AN/APQ-159 Radar is short range (10-20nm) with a 2 bar (~10°) sweep, so it's harder to search for targets than in the F/A-18C, etc. - i.e. You are guided to a target using AWACS, etc. or use the F10 map in lieu of a good GCI and use the radar to get ranging information to fire the gun or sidewinder missile after spotting the target visually.

 

• Ground attack is 'old school' with bombing tables where you set up a sight piper depression angle and hit the correct speed, dive angle and altitude parameters when dropping your ordinance - it requires *much* more skill (and patience) than CCIP/CCRP bombing.

 

• It's RWR is poorly modelled - the 'search' filter is a 'either or thing' rather than a de-clutter filter and for ground threats, you either see search or active tracking/locked radars, never both.

 

• The F-5E comes with 10 training, 7 Instant Action, 4 Single Player and no campaign.

 

• AFAIK paid DLC campaigns are A2A focused i.e. Red Flag type missions, that progressively increase in difficulty.

 

For these reasons, I chose the Mirage 2000C over the F-5E when showing my son the basic principles of BVR and BFM combat.

 

Note 1: I find spotting in DCS hard, so prefer modules that use a TGP or similar for ground threats or/and 4 bar or better radars for air threats.

 

Note 2: The current Hornet lacks TWS (coming soon) but it's data link and SA page mean it's not a issue as the Hornet pilot will usually still have more SA than a Mirage using TWS.

[Harlikwin]

Thanks for all the wonderful replies. What a lovely community.

 

I think the format of my post may not have been clear, but after each point I explain why I’m conflicted, so when I mention fc3. The conflict was that I wanted a clickable cockpit and knew it wouldn’t have it.

 

But it seems clear that with VR, and il-2 covering my low fidelity sim flying needs that I will skip on FC3.

 

I will do some research on the f-5, f18, a10c and the harrier, think I will go with a or w of those to get me started.

 

I also welcome any more opinions and advice, but once again thanks so much for the help!

 

-Idris

 

P.s. Baaz, I will definitely look into the helos too :),

 

Honestly I'd look at the F18 for what you want, its multirole, sort-of complete and gets regular updates and skills you learn there will transfer to most western planes. The F5 is simpler in some ways, but also much more limited in the long run.

 

If you are in VR, FC3 isn't great as you have to map all the buttons to the hotas somehow and or use voice attack.

 

I'd stay well clear of the Harrier, its a buggy half working mess alot of the time, and doesn't get regular bug fixes or updates. They do come here and there but its frustratingly slow. And I say this primarily because it was my first clicky plane and it has been utterly disappointing and it isn't in a much better state in the year that I've owned it. Honestly I'd stay away from most of the 3rd party modules at first, they frequently have issues and aren't always updated quickly, Heatblur is probably the best 3rd party dev in terms of updates/fixes/stability etc.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Harlikwin

[nessuno0505]

I'd stay well clear of the Harrier, its a buggy half working mess alot of the time, and doesn't get regular bug fixes or updates. They do come here and there but its frustratingly slow. And I say this primarily because it was my first clicky plane and it has been utterly disappointing and it isn't in a much better state in the year that I've owned it. Honestly I'd stay away from most of the 3rd party modules at first, they frequently have issues and aren't always updated quickly, Heatblur is probably the best 3rd party dev in terms of updates/fixes/stability etc.

 

It's a real shame the av-8b Is in this state since, despite it's not super-fast, It could be a sort of navy a-10c-like plane with the benefit of vtol, if only it was modeled as It deserves. If I had to choose a plane for itself, the av-8b would be my first choice. Unfortunately you have to choose not only for the plane but for the quality of the simulation, and that's why I do not own the harrier. But I keep hoping It Will be ready One day. I agree about Heatblur, but I do not suggest the tomcat, unless you buy two of them and have a friend Who wants to do your RIO or your pilot. With a crew of two humans the f-14 could be the best module overall, but if you have to play It alone with jester, I say no. I highly suggest the a-10c, since it's still the best module imho. 650+ pages of manual sound intimidating, but you do not have to learn It All to start to be effective, and you continue to learn something new even after years of play. It's not a/a, this can be a limit, but it's Just theoretical if you use It in the appropriate mission setting.

Edited October 24, 2019 by nessuno0505

[lascaris]

Personally I love the Mirage both as a pretty straightforward plane to fly, it's definitely simpler than the F-18/16 or A-10, and it's campaign(s) which are absolutely fabulous.

[kaoqumba]

I suggest you wait a little longer before you can buy JF-17. As powerful as the F / a18c. The difference is that once jf17 is released, it's almost all done. You don't have to wait long

[Bagpipe]

Honestly? And i have owned this module for the least time out of them all but i would say get the F86 Sabre. Dogfighting AI mig15s is truly great fun and you learn alot about combat maneuvres. Plus it has rockets and bombs and Reflected is releasing a new campaign for it very soon.

It has a not too complex clickable cockpit and you can learn about the older navigation systems without overwhelming yourself with tech which will give you a solid base to build on for some of the later aircraft modules like F14/Hornet etc.

 

I wish somebody told me this back when i started out tbh

[Svsmokey]

Hornet , hands down . Easy to fly , intuitive systems , carrier ops and can do it all . Rugged gear for beginner land-based landings as well . Huey , to experience the best possible graphics experience in DCS . Steam-gauge jet of your choice to learn how to properly fly . I like the L-39 because the oversize instruments are easy to read in VR ,

Also has rugged gear , and it has delightful , vice-free handling characteristics .

[Pikey]

Worth mentioning that the F-16 is nice and simple currently. 3 clicks (and a couple of rows of switching things "on") and you can drive around in VR with very little effort. Also, for us EA is bad because we want it all delivered faster. But for someone that is new and confused, having most of it not implemented means you can grow as the EA process grows, finding new features bolted on, which might suit your style/pace of learning better.

 

Harrier is a strong favourite of mine but im not that much of a ground pounder. The Tomcat is the only plane I've done truly heroic things in with a RIO in the back and love to fly. The Hornet I feel dispassionate about, but its the tool for every job.

[KennyG]

I also endorse the F-5. It’s all purpose, a complete product, has a clickable cockpit and is great fun to fly in VR. It doesn’t give you any high tech crutches and will introduce the modern jet fighter in its purest sense. There are campaigns available and extra outside reference material from Chuck Owl, which the F-16 doesn’t have. It has a tail hook so you can do carrier operations. Great plane to start with and it’s cheap in comparison to the others.

 

PS the Air Force still uses a variant of this airframe for training today, in the T-38.

Edited November 6, 2019 by KennyG

[malcheus]

My favorite is the mig21, because it doesn't have all the fancy stuff, but it does have the cool navigation systems, and the module has good tutorials.

 

Also, nukes.

[Varis]

P.s. Baaz, I will definitely look into the helos too :),

 

Helis are a whole different world and a new level to DCS so nobody should eventually miss out. I started out my simming with fixed wing in the 80's but since mid-90s (HIND) I've been more into helicopters. Their principles of flight are completely different so many will find them a very delightful, even if frustrating at first, experience. When/if the more detailed terrain model hits DCS they will be even more fun than they are today - we'll get more out of the sneaking, hiding and terrain use aspects that are focal to the helicopter world.

 

Naturally there's as many opinions on what's the best/easiest as there are pilots.

 

Ka-50 can be a bit overwhelming for the systems as it's the most complex. Then again it has the most powerful weaponry as well and is the only real attack helicopter we have. If you select the english language cockpit and just use gunpods/rockets there of course isn't that much of a difference.

 

Gazelle can be a great choice if you're into a very light scout helicopter. With a good array of weaponry it also has the most advanced visual sensor system (Vivian) which can be a great fun to lurk and spot targets with. At first it will feel very lively and twitchy to fly, but not too much for experienced helicopter pilots. Otherwise I'd say it's not really harder to learn than any other module.

 

The Huey and Mi-8/17 are older and more transport oriented helicopters. The modelling is great and many pilots swear by them as well.

 

When I first started out with DCS (Ka-50) I used to die to the vortex ring a lot. The helicopter modules are supported directly by ED, with the exception of the Gazelle; the Gazelle is also the only one which doesn't have separately sold campaigns available as I recall. Edit: the ED helicopters are supported with after market campaigns well enough for it to be an actual major selling point - for Mi-8/17 I count three separate campaigns in the shop, not counting the CA one, which is pretty darn great for any DCS module! The next upcoming helicopter will probably be the legendary Mi-24 from ED. It's an older aircraft than Ka-50 but has a broader mission profile as a transport/gunship and there's a fair deal of excitement about it, even from some pilots who otherwise tend to stick to fixed wing. Also the Ka-50 is getting an upgrade in the Black Shark 3 module which will be sold separately.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Varis

[BuzzU]

Hell, buy them all! ED will love you.

[Brigg]

I am pretty new to flying modern jets and am absolutely loving the hornet. i would go with that tbh as its easy to fly and still rewarding at the same time. plus you can slam it down on that damn boat :lol:

[DarkStar79]

I would go with the Viggen! Such a cool module. where you can land on any road and call roadbases to rearm. I have all planes almost and viggen is the plane that gives me most joy. Its a very special module. And is the king in low and fast flying.

 

After that the F14 hands down! Its also super cool, maybe you have a friend who also flies? Then you can play togheter, and you will be blown away in vr when playing 2 persons in the F14!

[Northstar98]

Absolutely the F/A-18C, yes it's complicated, but it is extremely intuitive - most of the stuff (especially A2G) can be picked up and learnt inside of a few minutes including JDAMs and JSOWs it really isn't hard at all. Plus it's very easy to fly (thing practically does takeoffs automatically) tonnes of stuff going on to help you out.