SUGGESTION | Roll Trim sensitivity

[randomTOTEN]

Exactly

I'm glad we have reached an agreement on the facts! No we can just discuss perception and technique, which are vastly inferior to using accurate data.

they were obviously able to locate the error and correct it based off the feedback and documentation from the SMEs.

See, here we merely differ in opinion and I can understand that. Let me share my perspective, and make some assumptions about yours. Like many users, you've experienced difficulty with trimming the aircraft (I consider trimming a basic skill in controlling the flight path of an aircraft; thus if you have trouble with trim you have trouble with aircraft control.) Your difficulty would lead you to believe that there is something wrong here. Thus, the decrease in roll trim rate would give you increased trim=flight path control. Thus, you would be led to believe that this is an error that was corrected. Understandable, and for you this was obvious!

 

Look at it from my (and users like me) perspective. I've encountered no noticeable difficulties with trimming the aircraft from the first day I bound the trim hat! Load asymmetry... been trimming it out no problem. I read threads such as this one where you state that the trim is too sensitive. Your post is supported by many other users. I believe that you perhaps have not acquired the skills in fine trimming that this aircraft requires, and assuming that the developers did not randomly choose a trim rate during development, I assume that the trim system is functioning properly.

 

Lo and behold one day I update DCS, start the Viper, and notice the roll trim is crawling along...strange... I get airborne, it's now noticeably slower than what I was previously experiencing. Remember, I had the assumption that it was at a realistic rate before. Now, what you believe is an obvious fix, I view as an obvious adjustment based on user complaint. Why else would a fully functioning system change, other than as a response to this thread?:music_whistling:

 

We can see your assumptions here.

How inaccurate do you want it to be? It being "difficult to trim out" does not equal realism.... :doh:

I *never said* that it was "difficult to trim out." That's your assumption.

 

It has NEVER been difficult to trim out, even from the first day I installed the module (release day).

 

When I stated

If it ain't easy in the real deal, it ain't easy in DCS!

That was from your perspective, not mine! It's always been easy to trim. Day one. Now it's changed and I can't be sure why. It's still easy. It was never hard. The need for change has never been "obvious" to me.

 

Look, even on the previous page, even with the reduced roll trim rate, a user has proclaimed that it's impossible to trim ("The current state of the Viper is such that regardless of flying straight and level at a fixed power setting, it will not sit still.") He wants the trim roll rate reduced even more! What's the actual aircraft behavior? Who cares! My screenshot is as an almost worse case scenario (I should have added a EFT lol). That was my suggestion that maybe the problem doesn't lie with the aircraft. That's no dig on him, learning to trim is a skill that must be studied and practiced. That's why it exists in the simulator.

 

This can't be a universal problem if these wildly different opinions exist on this issue?? ME:It was never broken.. STRIKEEAGLE345: It was broken and now it's fixed... EMMY: It was broken and it's still broken.

 

My position remains the same, let's use the real aircraft performance, and adjust our skill to meet the actual aircraft design.

Edited November 4, 2019 by randomTOTEN

[kreisch]

I second this, an option to change the sensitivity of polling actions like trim and perhaps scrolling (on dials) would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Please! Last week I had to change QFE during formation flight and it was a huuuuge pain in the a*** because the altimeter changes so slowly :(

[txmtb]

Please! Last week I had to change QFE during formation flight and it was a huuuuge pain in the a*** because the altimeter changes so slowly :(

 

 

Yea I don't even bother with that one right now, it's way too slow.

Would be nice to have it more speedy like the HSI heading knob.

 

 

 

 

 

On the roll trim it might be hardware related. Can trim no problem with the trim dials, but with the hat one quick flick left or right is just a little too much and it starts rolling the other way.

[randomTOTEN]

I suspect it's how you guys are actuating the trim. What you believe are "short" trim presses are actually pretty long. Holding down the trim hat for even 1 whole second is extremely long, and should result in large trim changes. Your goal should be to just *tap* the switch. Your should be trying to actuate the switch for the shortest possible period you are physically able to.

 

Consider that in my transport category jet, more than 3 seconds of continuous trimming is unacceptably dangerous, and will be locked out by the aircraft to prevent a potentially fatal loss of control (see MAX issues). See my screenshot where I trimmed a severe imbalance for 60 seconds of hands off flight. It's doable, you might need some more practice.

[Strikeeagle345]

sigh... Like communicating with a wall. Not wasting my time with you any longer, it is pointless. Nice addition to the ignore list...

 

to the rest:

I will jump in tonight and run some test on the data I have to see if there were any changes.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Strikeeagle345

[txmtb]

I suspect it's how you guys are actuating the trim. What you believe are "short" trim presses are actually pretty long. Holding down the trim hat for even 1 whole second is extremely long, and should result in large trim changes. Your goal should be to just *tap* the switch. Your should be trying to actuate the switch for the shortest possible period you are physically able to.

 

Consider that in my transport category jet, more than 3 seconds of continuous trimming is unacceptably dangerous, and will be locked out by the aircraft to prevent a potentially fatal loss of control (see MAX issues). See my screenshot where I trimmed a severe imbalance for 60 seconds of hands off flight. It's doable, you might need some more practice.

 

 

 

 

Seriously, I know what a "flick" or your "tap" of trim is. With my setup it's .030 of a second. So your "suspect" is wrong in this case. Any less than that and it won't even register in the sim.

 

 

 

I'm glad that you have no issues with it, really nothing more for you to add to this thread as your setup is working as intended.

 

 

With constructive responses we may be able to determine why others are having issues, stating outright that it's purely their procedural problems is not the right answer.

[Emmy]

sigh... Like communicating with a wall. Not wasting my time with you any longer, it is pointless. Nice addition to the ignore list...

 

to the rest:

I will jump in tonight and run some test on the data I have to see if there were any changes.

 

Thank You...

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

From my perspective (you can see in my signature I use the TM Warthog), things are better but not quite there yet (if the aim is being able to trim perfectly).

Even in an A/A loadout with 1 missile fired (amraams on stations 1, 2 and 9, sidewinders on 3 and 7), I can't trim for perfect horizontal flight without engaging the auto-pilot. And yes, that's with very gentle taps on the trim hat...

[Eldur]

The current state of the Viper is such that regardless of flying straight and level at a fixed power setting, it will not sit still. It wants to either climb or descend and roll one way or the other and any attempt to null out pitch or roll, you simply can't because any correction causes the opposite to happen. A slight climb becomes a slight dive and/or a slight left roll becomes a slight right roll.

 

 

I can't believe that this is correct.

 

This applies to ALL DCS aircraft sadly. Every ever so tiny correction results in a massive overcorrection. And I can tap the hat for as short as ~30ms, but most times it's 50-70ms if I don't try hard and do the usual tapping.

 

However I've never ever trimmed the Viper in pitch and it's fine as long as the speed stays the same. Same for the Hornet, just that I tried trimming in the very beginning of it's early access because I felt I needed to after taking off. But the Flickes (FCS respectively) does quite a good job there. It just doesn't trim yaw and roll at all, which makes me wonder as it could be done most probably, but apparently this isn't the case in the real deals.

 

And I just have to trim roll with asymmetric loadouts. When the plane is clean or symmetrically loaded, without trimming the roll is stable. But I didn't try that 8x CBU-87 loadout anymore that was giving me a hefty roll to the right in the first version.

 

BTW for those "let's see how my attitude went after x seconds" tests and videos I'd recommend stabilizing the aircraft and then setting considerable deadzones to the PRY axes to ensure no input is coming from the devices. Might be possible that input could be so minimal the Ctrl+Enter frame won't show it. At least I'm able to do extremely precise throttle inputs in the Harrier with better than 0.1% RPM precision with the TMWH. You'd never see that in that box.

[Strikeeagle345]

This applies to ALL DCS aircraft sadly. Every ever so tiny correction results in a massive overcorrection. And I can tap the hat for as short as ~30ms, but most times it's 50-70ms if I don't try hard and do the usual tapping.

 

However I've never ever trimmed the Viper in pitch and it's fine as long as the speed stays the same. Same for the Hornet, just that I tried trimming in the very beginning of it's early access because I felt I needed to after taking off. But the Flickes (FCS respectively) does quite a good job there. It just doesn't trim yaw and roll at all, which makes me wonder as it could be done most probably, but apparently this isn't the case in the real deals.

 

And I just have to trim roll with asymmetric loadouts. When the plane is clean or symmetrically loaded, without trimming the roll is stable. But I didn't try that 8x CBU-87 loadout anymore that was giving me a hefty roll to the right in the first version.

 

BTW for those "let's see how my attitude went after x seconds" tests and videos I'd recommend stabilizing the aircraft and then setting considerable deadzones to the PRY axes to ensure no input is coming from the devices. Might be possible that input could be so minimal the Ctrl+Enter frame won't show it. At least I'm able to do extremely precise throttle inputs in the Harrier with better than 0.1% RPM precision with the TMWH. You'd never see that in that box.

 

The F-14 has it down, easy as pie to trim her in both axis.

[Strikeeagle345]

So after some testing, it looks like it is close but not quite there yet. the amount of trim per "tap" is ever so slightly exaggerated.

[Eldur]

How inaccurate do you want it to be? It being "difficult to trim out" does not equal realism.... :doh:

 

Neither does a trim rate dependant on the rendering fps (it's smoother at higher rates and choppy at low ones) as it is in DCS

 

I suspect it's how you guys are actuating the trim. What you believe are "short" trim presses are actually pretty long. Holding down the trim hat for even 1 whole second is extremely long, and should result in large trim changes. Your goal should be to just *tap* the switch. Your should be trying to actuate the switch for the shortest possible period you are physically able to.

 

What I said. I get down to presses as short as 30ms. But suffering from the latest performance drops (p 6 and on) which are significant again - I went from 55-80fps in Dubai down to less than 20 since before the Tomcat dropped while having OC'ed my CPU by a whole GHz as an effort to counter the loss - ofc it's even less in VR, settings unchanged and I tried patching to the old version - tadaa, performance was back again until I patched to the most recent one again - trimming the Viper with such a short tap results in significant roll rates of more than 1°/s. Can't be true...

[Dutch Baron]

I have never flown a real F-16 so I can't say if it's realistic or not as it is now, but I also can't imagine that the trim is that sensitive in the real jet.

I do have this 'issue' on every single flight as well and if possible and realistic, I'd love to see the trim increments decreased so we can actually trim it nicely.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Dutch Baron

[despinoza]

this could be a great and pretty much easy fix/add. It´s really frustrating won´t be able to perfectly trim the aircraft

[Sharpe_95]

+1

[Bog9y]

+1

 

I had a 50 lbs asymmetric load and the roll tendency was there. To be fair I did not check my fuel tanks for an imbalance but this was shortly after take off. Trying to trim it out was impossible. I microsecond touch on the roll trim and it started rolling to the other side ever so slightly...try the other way, same thing.

[randomTOTEN]

I had a 50 lbs asymmetric load and the roll tendency was there. To be fair I did not check my fuel tanks for an imbalance but this was shortly after take off. Trying to trim it out was impossible.

Can you post a track?

[BIGNEWY]

Posted in another thread but will post here also

 

Hi all

 

I have had a reply from the dev and a comment from a viper pilot on this.

 

Trim button on the stick is more secure than trim with knob and rollers in the Manual trim panel. But with the trim button on the stick, precise trim is not possible. To make more precise trim the manual trim needs to trim with the rollers and knob on the panel

 

Hopefully that helps.

 

So in short for fine trim it is better to use the panel, trim on the stick is less precise.

 

Thanks

[Deano87]

Posted in another thread but will post here also

 

Great info Bignewy! When can I expect the complimentary DCS F-16 Trim panel to arrive in the post so I can use that to trim precisely? I presume it bolts nicely to the back of a Warthog Throttle? :thumbup:

 

I joke... but hopefully you see my point.

 

I'm all for pursuing realism but there has to be concessions made for the hardware we all have, Sure the real trim on the stick might be super sensitive but the pilot can just reach down to the trim rollers without looking at them and get it absolutely perfect. 99% of the people flying the DCS sim don't have that ability. Yes we can look down to the trim wheel and roll it with the mouse but is just as tricky as trying to do it with the stick, as you have to look away from where you're actually flying, and can't do it by 'feel'.

 

We have auto-rudder and takeoff assist for warbirds, we also have the Maverick Realistic Slew option in the F-18, so how about a Special Options tickbox for the F-16 which says "Precise Roll Trim" which ads a slow speed trim period initially so small dabs of stick trim do small changes and it allows people to actually trim the thing out. People who want absolute realism can keep it off.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Deano87

[FoxOne007]

Great info Bignewy! When can I expect the complimentary DCS F-16 Trim panel to arrive in the post so I can use that to trim precisely? I presume it bolts nicely to the back of a Warthog Throttle? :thumbup:

 

I joke... but hopefully you see my point.

 

I'm all for pursuing realism but there has to be concessions made for the hardware we all have, Sure the real trim on the stick might be super sensitive but the pilot can just reach down to the trim rollers without looking at them and get it absolutely perfect. 99% of the people flying the DCS sim don't have that ability. Yes we can look down to the trim wheel and roll it with the mouse but is just as tricky as trying to do it with the stick, as you have to look away from where you're actually flying, and can't do it by 'feel'.

 

We have auto-rudder and takeoff assist for warbirds, we also have the Maverick Realistic Slew option in the F-18, so how about a Special Options tickbox for the F-16 which says "Precise Roll Trim" which ads a slow speed trim period initially so small dabs of stick trim do small changes and it allows people to actually trim the thing out. People who want absolute realism can keep it off.

 

Just my 2 cents.

This is +1000 from me, that would be a great solution

[randomTOTEN]

but is just as tricky as trying to do it with the stick, as you have to look away from where you're actually flying, and can't do it by 'feel'.

Move a trim wheel... look back up... wait a couple seconds... determine the trim requirement.. move a trim wheel...

 

...if you're trying to fine tune aircraft trim "be feel" you're doing it wrong...

[Deano87]

Move a trim wheel... look back up... wait a couple seconds... determine the trim requirement.. move a trim wheel...

 

...if you're trying to fine tune aircraft trim "be feel" you're doing it wrong...

 

Do you stare at every control in the cockpit while you're using it? Maybe you do. But in the real flying i do, I don't, I know where the trim wheel is and I can't remember the last time I looked at it while actuating it apart from setting and confirming takeoff trim. I reach out to where I know it is and i make the adjustments while continuing to look outside the aircraft.

[randomTOTEN]

Do you stare at every control in the cockpit while you're using it? Maybe you do. But in the real flying i do, I don't, I know where the trim wheel is and I can't remember the last time I looked at it while actuating it apart from setting and confirming takeoff trim. I reach out to where I know it is and i make the adjustments while continuing to look outside the aircraft.

Your jet isn't going to fly into the ground while you look down for the mere seconds it takes to roll a click of the trim wheel.... if it does you've got better choices to make in task management.

Edited April 20, 2020 by randomTOTEN

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

We have auto-rudder and takeoff assist for warbirds, we also have the Maverick Realistic Slew option in the F-18, so how about a Special Options tickbox for the F-16 which says "Precise Roll Trim" which ads a slow speed trim period initially so small dabs of stick trim do small changes and it allows people to actually trim the thing out. People who want absolute realism can keep it off.

Yes that would be brilliant! :-)

[Sharpe_95]

Originally Posted by Deano87 View Post

We have auto-rudder and takeoff assist for warbirds, we also have the Maverick Realistic Slew option in the F-18, so how about a Special Options tickbox for the F-16 which says "Precise Roll Trim" which ads a slow speed trim period initially so small dabs of stick trim do small changes and it allows people to actually trim the thing out. People who want absolute realism can keep it off.

 

+1

 

I would add that having set my mouse roll to 1 line per click I still cant trim the aircraft using the mouse wheel on the trim roll. Nor does single left/right clicks fix the roll. I just dont have a way to make a fine enough adjustment to make the aircraft fly straight and level when it is asymmetrically configured.

 

If EDs position is "you may not be a able to trim the aircraft for straight and level flight when asymmetrically configured because that is how it is in real life" then I can accept and understand that. However, it is a royal pain and this isn't real life and as Deano has said, a player aid (like has been added for aspects of other hi-fi modules) for those that dont want a wallowing aircraft all the time when its asymmetrically configured would be nice.

 

If on the other hand EDs position is "the jet can be trimmed perfectly for straight and level flight even when asymmetrically configured" then at this point I (and others) do not have the means to do this using any combination of trim hat input of roll wheel insight. In which case maybe something more could be done to smooth this out and make it possible for those that clearly cannot do it through no failing of their own?

 

-S

Edited May 11, 2020 by Sharpe_95