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Capto Glove? I don't get it ? What would we use it for?


DmitriKozlowsky

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Flipping switches in a VR pit, interacting with the VR pit in a believable/immersive manner. I'm just not sure its "quite there" yet technology wise.

 

IMO, no one is going to seriously use a VR hotas when a physical one is available that can provide feedback. Therefore, some work is going to have to go into "syncing" a real world hotas with captoglove type solutions, otherwise its going to look bad. (i.e. you holding your stick 3" to the left of where it is in VR or whatnot). One possibility is to have a snap to feature if the hotas is "used" i.e. any axis movement or button press snaps the hand to the VR HOTAS so the sim knows that thats where youre hands are. If you move it off the hotas then it senses that movement and you get the DCS floaty hand of doom to push buttons with.

 

Right now the best thing going for VR pit interaction is MilesD pointcntrl, which is basically just a mouse tracker you put on your fingers, and you get the classic 2/3 buttons to interact with the pit like a mouse you wear. Part of what makes it work IMO is the fact the mouse cross is unobtrusive, and it times out quickly so you don't see it when flying hands on stick (also then the trackers are out of the FOV). Need to click in the pit, bring up the finger tracker, press a button if needed to turn it on, go flip whatever switch you need, return hand to hotas. It would be cool if there were actual animations of the in-pit pilot flipping the switch, for you, or if your hand got tracked like capto glove, but it might be too hard to do with pointcntrl which is also only 2D.


Edited by Harlikwin

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To disable virtual hotas from captoglove interactions would be enough: I operate my warthog real hotas wearing gloves, then I use my gloved hands to interact with all the other switches and buttons in the virtual cockpit, except the ones on the hotas.

 

you got captogloves working?

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I would want the gloves for interacting with the cockpit. I would want to see the virtual pilot's hands following the gloves in a realistic way when the virtual pilot body is enabled, which would be almost all the time for me as long as it looks good and works well. But there should be a sensor on the glove to know when a hand is on the stick or throttle so that the in-game image "snaps" to the correct position regardless of where the stick/throttle are mounted in reality.

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Seeing the actual state of the art of naked hand tracking with inside-out HMDs, I guess in a close future gloves will no be necesary for interacting naturally with our hands against the cockpit ...

 

And as Harlikwin said in another post, when haptic feedback will be good enougth for not needing a HOTAS, that will be pluged directly to our brains


Edited by cercata
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you got captogloves working?

 

No, that was an hypothesis, maybe my sintax was not so clear but I'm not native language. If you could disable hotas interactions then It would be possible to use gloves and a phisical hotas. I think no virtual interaction can give you the feel of a real stick, otherwise VR had take over all the home cockpits that cost way more. But the top imho would be a real hotas mapped in the virtual world, something like touch controllers but with the shape of a hotas: you could put It in the right place in your phisical world and find It easily in the virtual one.

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No, that was an hypothesis, maybe my sintax was not so clear but I'm not native language. If you could disable hotas interactions then It would be possible to use gloves and a phisical hotas. I think no virtual interaction can give you the feel of a real stick, otherwise VR had take over all the home cockpits that cost way more. But the top imho would be a real hotas mapped in the virtual world, something like touch controllers but with the shape of a hotas: you could put It in the right place in your phisical world and find It easily in the virtual one.

 

Yeah thats what I was getting at with a "snap-to" feature for virtual hands and pits. You would do a quick calibration for each pit most likely, where you would let the program know now my hands are on the hotas. And visually it would snap the the virtual hands to the controls, and also as you pointed out it would disable the VR buttons on the controls in favor of the physical hotas. It might be automated as well in terms of axis inputs, i.e. any input on the physical controller would just snap the VR hand to it.

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oculus are developing hand tracking with out gloves I think. surely that will be a better solution?

 

Same general set of problems.

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oculus are developing hand tracking with out gloves I think. surely that will be a better solution?

 

Since Star Trek is sadly not a documentary and we don't have DCS:F-16 holodeck edition, next best thing is VR with some kind of 'force feedback' gloves that provide not only motion tracking in VR but some sense of touch.

Agreed that if we're just talking hand tracking alone, then gloves ultimately not necessary.

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I could live with natural hand tracking if it was very precise. Haptic responses would be better, but the hand or controls could provide a visual cue like flashing/changing color or a small text caption when you were in a certain proximity indicating what the control will do if you move any further.

 

For instance if you put your real finger in a position below a toggle switch that is down or off and start to move it upward, it could glow with a color meaning "up" or "on" or text like "generator on".

 

If it was a knob, you would pinch the knob to get the "glow" or caption, then twist the desired direction.

 

Where as haptic responses would put pressure on your fingertips to indicate proximity.

 

To work really well, the virtual hand and real hand should move together almost perfectly 1:1. But your brain should be able to use the visual images to get the job done even if the scale isn't exactly 1:1, no different than if you are reaching for something in water and the light is being refracted.

 

This is where real world simpits can still function very well: If you can see the virtual pilot's hands moving 1:1 with your real hands and your cockpit controls are placed almost exactly where they are in the virtual view, you would have the best of both worlds. In this environment, you could place a board at the right distance and angle (using the virtual hands to test reach and boundaries), then trace/transfer the size/locations of gauges and switches by drawing them on the board. The existing touch controllers could have a pen carefully mounted on them to permit this to some extent if you have your IPD/world scaling set to be true 1:1. The pen would have to be offset to reflect the difference in the position of your virtual hand vs the real hand, which could possibly be calibrated by peeking out of the visor (as I already do when comparing my pilot head/seat/stick position).


Edited by streakeagle

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Since Star Trek is sadly not a documentary and we don't have DCS:F-16 holodeck edition, next best thing is VR with some kind of 'force feedback' gloves that provide not only motion tracking in VR but some sense of touch.

Agreed that if we're just talking hand tracking alone, then gloves ultimately not necessary.

 

There are currently prototypes of Force feedback gloves out there, but nothing that currently looks remotely useful for DCS. Think like touching a wall kind of feedback. the units are huge/bulky and IIRC use gyroscopes to generate the required feedback force.

 

I think the near-term will be some sort of haptic buzzing in the fingertips/hand solution for gloves or just gloveless hand tracking like leap motion.

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Same general set of problems.

 

Yes, but free.

 

I'm keen to try the handtracking on the Oculus Quest, to see if I consider it good enough for manipulating the cockpit.

 

Acording to people who tryed it on OC6, I think it can be acceptable, the main problems where when the hands overlapped, and fast movement, but slow movements seemed quite steady.

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Yes, but free.

 

I'm keen to try the handtracking on the Oculus Quest, to see if I consider it good enough for manipulating the cockpit.

 

Acording to people who tryed it on OC6, I think it can be acceptable, the main problems where when the hands overlapped, and fast movement, but slow movements seemed quite steady.

 

Yes I look forward to trying this on my Quest as well, will be interesting for sure.

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I could live with natural hand tracking if it was very precise. Haptic responses would be better, but the hand or controls could provide a visual cue like flashing/changing color or a small text caption when you were in a certain proximity indicating what the control will do if you move any further.

 

For instance if you put your real finger in a position below a toggle switch that is down or off and start to move it upward, it could glow with a color meaning "up" or "on" or text like "generator on".

 

If it was a knob, you would pinch the knob to get the "glow" or caption, then twist the desired direction.

 

Where as haptic responses would put pressure on your fingertips to indicate proximity.

 

To work really well, the virtual hand and real hand should move together almost perfectly 1:1. But your brain should be able to use the visual images to get the job done even if the scale isn't exactly 1:1, no different than if you are reaching for something in water and the light is being refracted.

 

This is where real world simpits can still function very well: If you can see the virtual pilot's hands moving 1:1 with your real hands and your cockpit controls are placed almost exactly where they are in the virtual view, you would have the best of both worlds. In this environment, you could place a board at the right distance and angle (using the virtual hands to test reach and boundaries), then trace/transfer the size/locations of gauges and switches by drawing them on the board. The existing touch controllers could have a pen carefully mounted on them to permit this to some extent if you have your IPD/world scaling set to be true 1:1. The pen would have to be offset to reflect the difference in the position of your virtual hand vs the real hand, which could possibly be calibrated by peeking out of the visor (as I already do when comparing my pilot head/seat/stick position).

 

From an immersion standpoint not exactly 1:1 is fine IMO. The issue with any simpit though will be it does have to be pretty close for VR hand tracking to be useful.

 

Currently, I'm sure my stick and throttle aren't 1:1, the throttles I use aren't even close to same place in the pit since I use foxx mounts. Stick is better but still probably off by a few inches in whatever direction. So if I have hand tracking working, I'm going to have a phantom hand hovering 3" to the left of my stick, while the stick is moving (because I'm holding the physical one). Then if I look at my throttle I'm gonna have my hand going through the front panel because my throttle is too far forward, or too low or whatever. And forget about actually using physical buttons/controls if they aren't 100% lined up with VR.

 

I think a sort-of solution to this is that the hands snap to the throttle or stick if there is any input on that control (axis movment, button etc).

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).

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