harpoon flight path and use(less) ?

[MBot]

Again, we are basing this on the available information we have.

 

I have no doubts that you have the documentation for the correct altitude for HIGH/MED/LOW flight setting. I do have some doubts though about when exactly they apply.

 

Could you clarify for us, what your sources say about the altitude (fixed/setting) for the following phases of the Harpoon's flight?

 

1. Launch to HPTP

2. HPTP to search enable

3. search enable to target acquisition

4. target acquisition to terminal

5. terminal to impact

 

I think it would help us all to understand how the final Harpoon implementation is intended to work. Thank you.

[MBot]

I don't know if I am allowed to post it, but the document "Harpoon Employment in Naval Antisurface Warfare (ASUW)" (google it) has some interesting bits of information:

 

 

Page 32: "It was specifically designed for optimum target acquisition over water and penetration of surface ship defenses by maintaining minimum sea-skimming altitude enroute to its target. Once the missile arrives in the designated search area of the target, the system's active seeker locks-on to the target and maintains its seeker until impact."

 

Page 67 on tactics mentions that B-52 would launch Harpoons from 500 ft altitude.

[MBot]

http://www.topgunbio.com/harpoon-cruise-missile-escort/

 

"The Harpoon's profile was for a low altitude flight to the target, 200’ or less guided by a radar altimeter, at the high speed of 0.9 Mach – about 540 knots."

 

"After all, we had to plan on five minutes at high speed and low altitude" (regarding following the Harpoon with the chase plane)

 

"The missile climbed to several hundred feet, then arced over and quickly descended to its cruise altitude, gaining speed." (describing Harpoon launch by the submarine)

 

"it flies at 200’"

 

"and now we were chasing a cruise missile skimming across the ocean. I know people have been lower and faster, but 540 knots at 200' is low and fast."

 

"In three minutes we had covered almost 30 miles and were more than halfway to the target ship"

 

This is regarding a submarine launched Harpoon, which clearly cruises all the way from launch to target at low altitude.

 

And here, regarding almost colliding with the chase plane which was following an air launched Harpoon that was fired at the same target simultaneously:

 

"John Boy and I saw Cowboy’s jet, but didn’t gain sight of the small Harpoon he was chasing. Both fighters were flying formation on our respective missiles when Cowboy’s crossed directly behind ours, very close. Cowboy became concerned and called for us to execute a max-performance collision avoidance turn: “Break left!”".

Edited November 1, 2019 by MBot

[FSKRipper]

 

i dont see the problem you mentioned about height and radar lock...even 1 meter over the water gives some miles of horizon, and ship is way taller on the sea than the harpoon flight path…)

 

 

Correct, but with a wave height of 1m you will get a diving missile or a missile who can't seperate waves from ships beacause it can see only clutter as you estimated for the ships radar. To make it more easy I can simply citate Wiki:

 

"The use of sea skimming increases the risk of water impact with the missile before reaching the target, due to weather conditions, rogue waves, software bugs and other factors. Sea skimming also hinders target acquisition, as many of the principles that hinder the target's detection of the missile also hinder the missile's detection of the target. Furthermore, sea skimming involves a significant computational load, increasing the required processing power and cost"

 

 

The point is ship radars are far more sophisticated, even if it doesn't seem so because of their age (in our case 80's and late 90's). For sure the situational awareness makes 80% of the game. So if you don't know when it's comming and from where it's very difficult to see but there is a reason that modern sea wars (and maneuvers) are fought in good to moderate wheather conditions.

 

 

still.. you didnt mentioned the exocet flight path height, thats is the whole point here.

 

 

You are right, I didn't mentioned it. After a short popup (which we could not see because the starting platform was behind the horizon) it used a cruise altitude of roughly 10m (~30ft). It came up on radar at around 24nm and was attacked by Sea Sparrows at 10nm with 2 shots. The first came very close according to its telemetry head, the second damaged the MM38 at 4nm from our ownship by a direct hit. Debris came as near as 2nm (ditching on the water). It's really no magic to shot sea skimmers down. Maybe you should ask why your plane at 20ft isn't hurt by enemy fire :music_whistling:

[Zeph]

AGM84D

 

When a new weapon is Put out why is there no training missions that you can practice and get proficient with the new weapon, I spend more time trying to fend off incoming bandits before I can ever release the weapon on most servers that is if they have a target for the said weapon.

[hotrod525]

Without over or under estimate any ASM nor CM, you need to keep in mind that the way to use Harpoon against SAG is not about "sniping" one ship with a single missile, but to overwelm the group with sh.tloads of ordnance. USS Mason (Arleigh Burk Class) stop 9 C802 missiles with SM2, ESSM and chaffs in october 2016.

 

 

Plus the fact that we dont have AG Radar yet (providing range, bearing and stuff), using 1 or 2 harpoons is kinda uselss against high-end ship :(

[raelias]

I love how when on MED or HIGH settings the missile dives too slowly after detecting the ship and just flies over it

[NineLine]

I love how when on MED or HIGH settings the missile dives too slowly after detecting the ship and just flies over it

 

I'd have to see a track, I haven't experienced that.

[raelias]

I'd have to see a track, I haven't experienced that.

 

 

Ok so here are two tracks:

 

 

4 Grisha group

 

 

On the first one we launch 4 harpoons, 1 high, one med, 2 low (pop n skim)

 

 

The harpoon at HIGH just doest not see the 4 grisha and cruises above them

 

 

The MED harpoon sees them but gets engaged (thats ok), altho you can clearly see that it's path would lead it over the targets

 

 

The low Harpoons see the grishas, the pop gets engaged (and thats ok), the skim hits it's target dealing only 5% damaged (is that ok??)

 

 

On track number 2 we see the following (Grisha's set to weapon hold)

 

 

I launch from below 30k feet, the ones set to high does not climb to it, but fly in the launch altitude (is that correct?)

 

 

2 harpoons at MED, 2 at HIGH, all of them detect the target at the same range (same as LOW), about 7.5 to 8nm

 

 

2 MED harpoons compleatly overfly the target, make a 180 turn and hit it (pretty sure it's not suppose to do that, sometimes hit water on the turn)

 

 

 

The HIGH ones were going to also grossly overfly the targets, but end up making a steep dive in the end straight into the target from above (good hit, not sure if it's suppose to do that tho, also first time I seem it doing this, usually just overflies away and make a 180 turn, usually to a new overfly)

 

 

I was under the impression that the High harpoons should detect the targets from much further distance then the MED, and LOW, then dive to sea skimming altitude

 

 

Damage looks like about 5% on skim, 15% on pop

 

 

Also all 4 harpoons went for the same target, not sure if that's correct behaviour or just EA option missing for group attacks

Harpoon test 1.trk

Harpoon test 2.trk

[raelias]

So? That enough?

[BIGNEWY]

Hi

 

sorry for the delay,

 

We have reported High Harpoon's overfly target. Thank you

 

We are looking into some of the Terminal phases and they maybe tweaked in the future.

 

If ships are close together it is difficult to target individual ones if they are all on the same bearing.

 

thanks

[raelias]

Hi

 

sorry for the delay,

 

We have reported High Harpoon's overfly target. Thank you

 

We are looking into some of the Terminal phases and they maybe tweaked in the future.

 

If ships are close together it is difficult to target individual ones if they are all on the same bearing.

 

thanks

 

 

Medium does it as well, also they all detect the target at around 8nm, surelly that's incorrect

 

 

Also less than 5% damage seems a bit off

[NineLine]

Medium does it as well, also they all detect the target at around 8nm, surelly that's incorrect

 

 

Also less than 5% damage seems a bit off

 

Not sure about detection range right now, I know terminal modes don't seem right now, I think they should go SKIM when a detection is made, and of course POP if that is selected.

 

Ship DMs, especially on the older ones are quite basic, so that is where you are seeing most issues, as that improves, the Harpoon capabilities will as well.

[SignorMagnifico]

Doesn't the AGM-84D have a sea-skimming flight altitude option? As it is right now, the missile is too easy for enemy ships to detect flying at 5000 feet. If I launch four missiles at the Kuznetzov or Moscow, they all get shot down before they can descend to terminal flight or detect the target. The RB-15 flies at 100 feet.

[ARM505]

...Maybe you should ask why your plane at 20ft isn't hurt by enemy fire :music_whistling:

 

Asking the real question.

 

With 100% maintenance and flawless weapons (ie. they never just drop into the water, everything works every time), a single incoming subsonic missile should be managed quite readily. This is after all the main threat all defensive weapons have been designed to defeat. I would expect nothing less.

 

The fact that DCS allows magical safety for aircraft at super low altitudes (based on what I have seen, and why I quoted the above) is leading to confusion here, as people assume the same treatment for missiles. The whole idea of 'radar clutter' is overblown to a degree. Even with older radars (my only actual experience), sea skimming missiles show up quite distinctly as they get closer.

[Fri13]

It is coded to realistic available data, not sure how to change that based on what works better for users if you have something you think is legit and legal you can PM it to me, but we only use publicly available information.

 

A little side question.

 

Is a information that is available such way that anyone can walk to room to read documents, but no copies are allowed to be made by any means, so you can read and memorize only, as "public data"?

 

There are as well information that is restricted to service personnel or research purposes only, non-classified but restricted, so I believe that is a "not public" to you? Even if by legally it is allowed to be discussed outside?

[Fri13]

The whole idea of 'radar clutter' is overblown to a degree. Even with older radars (my only actual experience), sea skimming missiles show up quite distinctly as they get closer.

 

What kind a distances we are talking about?

 

As the clutter is a serious problem, but only at far as the radar resolution becomes a problem so it can't separate clutter from the target. At closer ranges where the radar resolution increases the clutter becomes less problematic, until a threshold is reached where clutter ain't anymore an problem.

 

This same thing is a problem for even modern radars to detect a formation flying aircrafts and separate them from each others even in RAID mode, and regardless some other fancy tech is tried to be used. AFAIK this is not modeled in DCS.

 

AFAIK the sea skimming is usable only to close ranges when behind horizon, so that early warning radars at high altitude wouldn't detect the missile. But at closer ranges it becomes obsolete method and it is either purely kinematic or maneuverability that makes it or not. And what comes to HARPOON and such, you really must saturate the defense systems so there ain't enough weapons to shoot down all the threats in that split moment.

 

So one can't go and launch one hornet with harpoons and think to sink any defensive capable target, but you need multiple wings even to go take target down with a numerous harpoons.

[deathbysybian]

Fired 8 jsow and friend fired 4 harpoons at the same time. Ship spammed missiles and killed them all before they got close. Are you supposed to keep attacking until they run out of ammo?

[sebihepp]

Fired 8 jsow and friend fired 4 harpoons at the same time. Ship spammed missiles and killed them all before they got close. Are you supposed to keep attacking until they run out of ammo?

 

I think realistically you would need about 16 harpoons, 16 JSOWs and 8 decoys to destroy ships with basic defense capability. Admiral Kutznetsov should need more.

 

And one document someone mentioned was about the AGM-84E - we have the D model in DCS. All the fantastic upgrades are not available here.

[Padonis]

Czy Harmy ma tak słabą wydajność? Nie chodzi już o to, ilu z nich dotrze do celu. Chodzi o to, jak niskie obrażenia zadają. Uderzyłem trzy razy „Albatross-Grisha 5”, obrażenia wynoszą 56%. It is not a destroyer but a corvette. Three Harm missiles should destroy it.

Czy tak niska wydajność jest błędem? Czy Harm zostanie naprawiony?

[Kang]

I believe the weird thing is how the Harpoon prompts a 4th of July level of SAM fireworks from any ship currently, whereas other anti-ship missiles (admittedly I only looked at the Swedish and Chinese ones) provoke absolutely no SAM response at all.

[Padonis]

Today 4 Harm fired at "Albatross-Grisha 5", one hit, 1% damage !!!

[Preendog]

The Harpoons are for distracting the ship defenses so other planes can get close enough to lock Walleyes.

[Andysim212]

Try setting up 5x4 ship flight of bad guys shooting AGMs at a US carrier group. Entire group is sunk every time. They are lethal to US side. That maybe because the defense missiles are exploding 80%of the time are miss the rest.

[Airhunter]

Harpoons are useless in DCS. Two RB15F's from a Viggen can sink any carrier.