Where are the developers?

[Kim Jong-un]

The developers seems to have evaporated?

[razo+r]

You should read their latest update/dev blog

[randomTOTEN]

Kim Jong-un

 

asking about missing people :D

[Oceandar]

Kim Jong-un

 

asking about missing people :D

Bwa hahhahahahaha..... Nice one.

Thanks for good laugh.

[Kim Jong-un]

You should read their latest update/dev blog

 

What? Nothing about viggen there

[lunaticfringe]

Yes, there is.

[theOden]

Seriously, why are you folks still asking?

Read #2 in this https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=182043

If you still think you'll get a frigging answer worth the ink I feel sorry for you.

What we have is what will get, live with it.

[RagnarDa]

I am here?

[MrDieing]

They are busy, you know, developing.

[QuiGon]

A random selection of current bug reports that has not been addressed in any way:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247588

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=244647

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4073863&postcount=3

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=224497

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=194632

... :(

[RagnarDa]

Where are the developers?

 

Do you want me to write that I’ve read your posts? I read everything on the forums + hoggit. I spend on average about 1,5-2,5 hours each day on my dev machine but use my phone to read everything while on work (bathroom). I don’t have time to write in the bathroom and def can’t write anything informed. A informed reply takes at least 20 minutes, most often more time and I need access to my code/documentation.

[Shimmergloom667]

Honestly, some sort of acknowledging bugs would indeed be highly appreciated. The limbo of not knowing if something is being worked on or even a bug or not is worse than waiting a bit longer for its resolution, IMHO.

[RagnarDa]

The thing is when I look into something is often the same time that I resolve the issue, if there is one to fix. Look at my post history. What I can do is as I said inform you that I’ve read the post, but that doesn’t mean that there is something for me to do. I don’t do this because I believe people will misunderstand. For example, there is a user error or the report is describing something that is so trivial that it might never be addressed. Nothing is perfect, especially not software so there will always be some issues. Even Doom still has bugs. Here’s one article describing how bugs are prioritized: https://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/blog/defect-management-by-policy-a-fast-easy-approach-to-prioritizing-bug-fixes here’s another https://medium.com/@Zh0uzi/3-criteria-to-prioritize-bugs-53698bcda124 and yet another https://www.google.se/amp/s/usersnap.com/blog/prioritize-bugs/amp/

[viper2097]

RagnarDa, I highly appreciate your work and I think you are doing an awesome job and are a really dedicated Viggen man.

 

However, if people get the feeling that they are ignored, it produces a bad feeling. Which is actually not necessary as you are not ignoring them. Things become worse when this happens over months.

 

I'm with you that you can't always write a 20 minute answer to every bug. But i guess, that you have at least a master list where you'll gonna add the reported bug after you read it.

Just give the information that you have added it to your list and that you will investigate on it as soon as it becomes the highes priority.

 

This would maybe help both sides. The bug reporter knows that he brought it to your attention and it is written on your list, and you won't get bad karma because people think you are not looking at it.

 

Just my 2 cents...

[QuiGon]

Do you want me to write that I’ve read your posts? I read everything on the forums + hoggit. I spend on average about 1,5-2,5 hours each day on my dev machine but use my phone to read everything while on work (bathroom). I don’t have time to write in the bathroom and def can’t write anything informed. A informed reply takes at least 20 minutes, most often more time and I need access to my code/documentation.

A quick note that it is being looked into would be appreciated indeed, at least if it can't get fixed right away. Just to make sure something doesn't slip through for some reason, like here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4090643&postcount=24

[frosen]

An official bug tracker would be nice so we can stop reposting already (without our knowledge) listed/known bugs.

 

As a lot of us are really dedicated fans and we are of course worried that some bugs will remain uncatered to etc.

[The Falcon]

An official bug tracker would be nice so we can stop reposting already (without our knowledge) listed/known bugs.

 

As a lot of us are really dedicated fans and we are of course worried that some bugs will remain uncatered to etc.

+1 finally

[RagnarDa]

Where are the developers?

 

How would a bug tracker help with duplicate reports?

 

Edit: and why is it a problem that issues are reported more than once? It’s not for me, actually it helps me gauge how many are affected.

Edited October 29, 2019 by RagnarDa

[frosen]

How would a bug tracker help with duplicate reports?

 

Edit: and why is it a problem that issues are reported more than once? It’s not for me, actually it helps me gauge how many are affected.

Because we would then see that the bug is already listed in the bug tracker and then rest assured that it is acknowledged and will be dealt with in due course.

 

What is happening now (speaking from my own experience at least), is that a lot of people is reposting bugs because they don't know if they have been noticed by you guys. It would also of course help new players to have a look at the tracker to see if it's listed as a bug in order to A) Not spend time to repost it B) know that it's a bug and not only wrong procedure from their side.

 

And to comment on your edit; no it's not really a problem for the users except that the bug forum get's a bit hard to overlook. But the main benefit from a user perspective would be to just get a one-stop-shop for the list of current bugs and for an acknowledgement of the bug so we can sleep peacefully at night :)

[renhanxue]

Nobody actually works on the Viggen full time as far as I understand it, and in fact they all have other full time jobs outside of heatblur on the side (source: swither on reddit). It's better to think of this as hobbyist software and expect support accordingly.

 

Still, as far as bug handling goes, having bug triage status exclusively in someone's head isn't a great way of communicating. People who put time and effort into writing bug reports are not just customers asking for support of the product, they're also doing some level of QA/product improvement work that would otherwise have cost the company money. Even if you can't or won't actually take any action on the report, it should at least get some minimum response. Even unpaid volunteers on github usually manage this.

 

Privately, while I appreciate the module and the fact that it got made, I have serious doubts about the sustainability of this kind of hobbyist-commercial business, especially when it comes to something like software that needs constant support. I learned the hard way to not mix work with hobbies. It's not for me to judge though.

Edited October 30, 2019 by renhanxue

[IronMike]

Nobody actually works on the Viggen full time as far as I understand it, and in fact they all have other full time jobs outside of heatblur on the side (source: swither on reddit). It's better to think of this as hobbyist software and expect support accordingly.

 

Still, as far as bug handling goes, having bug triage status exclusively in someone's head isn't a great way of communicating. People who put time and effort into writing bug reports are not just customers asking for support of the product, they're also doing some level of QA/product improvement work that would otherwise have cost the company money. Even if you can't or won't actually take any action on the report, it should at least get some minimum response. Even unpaid volunteers on github usually manage this.

 

Privately, while I appreciate the module and the fact that it got made, I have serious doubts about the sustainability of this kind of hobbyist-commercial business, especially when it comes to something like software that needs constant support. I learned the hard way to not mix work with hobbies. It's not for me to judge though.

 

Hi guys, I'd like to throw in some thoughts, not in defense of Ragnar, because he most certainly does not need it. Mind you, in his case it is not even his job, so him replying here is going out of his way, which on the other hand of course is considered the smallest thing from us and just plain normal. It's not a biggy, either way. The important thing is that the developer is up to date with the issues at hand and fixes them according to his priority list.

 

The couple things to keep in mind: this is not a hobby. How many jobs one has is up to each themselves, but everyone here works as a professional, even if this work is driven mainly by love and enthusiasm: it is work. This work needs to be allocated and a developer is best used developing.

 

At the same time we fully understand that bug reports should be acknowledged, and if anyone should be more present here, it is me, but quite frankly I am running into my limits as well, full time. Please don't get us wrong, we love to communicate with you guys, we deeply deeply appreciate all the help that you are giving us, and above all, we'd love to chat and even fly with you all the time, but reality unfortunately does not permit it. Our job is to keep things going. Sometimes it takes longer, sometimes it seems as if we are abscent, or as if we abandoned an idea, but since I joined, and that is now dunno 2 years ago, not one day the machinery stood still. Not even on christmas. No one took vacation until release and a while after, no one here ever quits. And that, too, ain't a biggy. But it is something you can count on. This is not a hobby-business that wavers with our free time availability. But it is still a business determined by its limits of course, as is the entire "niche-industry" of flight simulation. (Which btw also has its benefits, in terms of all of us being much closer to each other.)

 

In that sense, please understand that us not answering does not equal us not listening. And please do not concern yourselves with double reports. They really do not hurt, but of course, being able to look up an acknowledged bug helps of course, I can understand that absolutely. I'll try as well and show a bit more presence here.

 

Thank you for your patience with us guys.

[QuiGon]

Thanks for the input @IronMike and @RagnarDa. I totally understand that your ressources are limited and hence I don't expect everything to get fixed immediately. While that's of course not really satisfying, it is totally understandable and it's not what is frustrating me here. The problem is, that some valid bug reports don't seem to get noticed and that is especially frustrating when it is about bugs, that are easy and quick to fix (e.g. replacing a '-' with a '+' in the code). The wind direction bug is a great example for this: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=224497&page=3 . It's been reported last year, but has apparently only been noticed by HB this week. That's what is frustrating me.

So if there's anything that could be done to improve the bug reporting and acknowledging process (like a bug tracker) it would be greatly appreaciated :)

[theOden]

Nobody actually works on the Viggen full time as far as I understand it, and in fact they all have other full time jobs outside of heatblur on the side (source: swither on reddit). It's better to think of this as hobbyist software and expect support accordingly.

 

Still, as far as bug handling goes, having bug triage status exclusively in someone's head isn't a great way of communicating. People who put time and effort into writing bug reports are not just customers asking for support of the product, they're also doing some level of QA/product improvement work that would otherwise have cost the company money. Even if you can't or won't actually take any action on the report, it should at least get some minimum response. Even unpaid volunteers on github usually manage this.

 

Privately, while I appreciate the module and the fact that it got made, I have serious doubts about the sustainability of this kind of hobbyist-commercial business, especially when it comes to something like software that needs constant support. I learned the hard way to not mix work with hobbies. It's not for me to judge though.

Thank you renhanxue, my view since release too - spot on.

 

 

I am also worried by long time sustainability since most DCS updates kill modules one way or another (ED changing atmosphere stuff affecting this module for instance but also the swift death of the Hawk).

Not a Viggen specific issue but 3rd party in general.

 

 

Now for bug feedback, no shadow falls on Ragnar - he's the only one talking here which of course also makes this look like a sparetime hobby-business only moving forward when he manages to get free time from kids/wife/work/stuckintraffic you name it.

 

 

What's more annoying is Cobra statments that fall dead flat 2 years later, perfect way to tell customers "I have your dollars already".

 

 

So, no matter IronMike posts here above I still see this as a hobby-business as renhanuxe so clearly put it.

 

 

(And with that, even more credit to Ragnar showing up as much as he does)

[QuiGon]

Now for bug feedback, no shadow falls on Ragnar - he's the only one talking here which of course also makes this look like a sparetime hobby-business only moving forward when he manages to get free time from kids/wife/work/stuckintraffic you name it.

 

 

(And with that, even more credit to Ragnar showing up as much as he does)

Indeed and I feel like I might have not made this clear in my comments: I really appreciate all the work and effort Ragnar is puttin in maintaining the Viggen, especially as it seems like he's the only one putting real effort in the still unfinished Viggen (of course, I don't know what happens behind the scenes, but that's what it looks like). So keep up the good work Ragnar!

I just wish there would be something that could be done to improve processes like bug reporting.

 

 

What's more annoying is Cobra statments that fall dead flat 2 years later, perfect way to tell customers "I have your dollars already".

I wouldn't put it in such harsh words, but there has indeed been some undeniable neglectance in terms of Viggen development. The problem isn't so much that promisses were made, that couldn't be kept, but the fact that almost nothing has happened on the Viggen in general for the past 1-2 years, apart from some bug fixes. The Viggen is still unfinished and is stuck in EA for many years now and that itself is frustrating, regardless if there have been promises or not.

[Kim Jong-un]

What is frustrating that is so little left for viggen to make 100% finished atm i consider the viggen to be 90% finished. I hate it when the developers promise something and not delivering. Two years ago we were heard about pilot body but noting. But many good things have happen we have bk 90 and new ground radar.

 

It would be nice to have some kind of plan when things will be done.

My list of annoying things with viggen:

• Instant action freezes (unplayable)
  
• Mission editor freezes (unplayable)
  
• LOW resolution JA Valjare
  
• No IR FRAMSTEGN
  
• TAKT UT should show up when cycling sidewinder variants
  
• Toss bombing not working as it should (bombs falling to far)
  
• Smokeless RB 24J and smokey RB 74
  
• More official livers
  
• Cannot set BX8 point for RB15f in multiplayer
  
• Custom board numbers
  

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Kim Jong-un