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Your Thoughts: Is the F-16 Worth Time Investment Now, or Just Wait


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Since many of us saw the clickable pit of the ka-50 we all wanted this jet :)

 

Reason for getting it now: it's the F-16 ... ;) Serious note ..just to get used to it in dcs.

 

Reason for not getting it : If you have flown the F-16 before somewhere then I would wait, reason many of the things you expect are not here yet.

 

For the Hornet I was in category 1, I knew nothing about it and the early program have eased me into it.

 

General thoughts on the early program...

 

For me the Hornet started in pace I could deal with but man all of a sudden it took off, many systems are pretty advanced and wow hold on ;).

 

I suspect the F-16 will be the same, as the majority (at least on in writing) of people talking on the forums is in a state of "gimme gimme I can take it" ;)

 

Famous Day of thunder quote..."lets see how you do in a crowd" :)

Careful You might get what u ask for ... ;) etc etc.

 

Let's be honest early buying helps dcs bottom line and I'm not a huge fan of that model but Heatblur have put down the gauntlet on how a early program might be handled.

 

Conclusion: F-16 is way better than day 1 but still a long way to go.

 

Wish: more detailed patch notes, Any major change has to be documented...why? Early access , we are testers and as such we need to have the data to be able to help in a prober way. Right now F-16 is a plane that is fun and to be able to fight u need good out of the cockpit skills, as many of the system helps are not there yet. So see it as a pilot training plane as of now. You are flying the navy F-16 ;)

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I have too and the reason I don't think i'd be happy with an incomplete Viper. I hate waiting but I want to be happy with the DCS version when I finally fly it.

 

 

I completely understand. The frustration of not hearing "LOCK" from Betty when my nose is on a bandit inside 10miles while in DF mode can be unbearable at times lol. Still, I had to see it in VR.

I remember begging the different mod teams (for other Viper sim) on Frugalsworld for exportable MFD's and gauges in the wee 2000's. In 2015 I finally get them along with Helios for touchscreens. By late 2016 I'm flying with a 60" 4KUHD TV, 27" Touch screen and am only using the mouse/keyboard to hit fly. Heaven. lol

And then I try DCS in VR......... shit. I have all the modern modules in DCS including FC3 but they were just place holders and time fillers until the Viper was released. Being INSIDE that pit after 20 years of seeing it on a monitor makes up for the long list of missing/incorrect features. For now anyway :D


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My question is, is the radar, weapons and weapons delivery, flight and damage modeling far enough along since launch to invest one's time into learning, or should I keep my F-16 in the oven a bit longer?

 

The problem with F-16 is that it's so bare bones right now, that you will be learning how to perform various tasks incorrectly, using workarounds just to get the job done. And later relearning the proper ops when ED catches up with the development. There aren't even any training missions for the Viper apart from startup and takeoff.

 

If you are time limited and have more modules to play, then my advice is to go learn something more complete.

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I completely understand. The frustration of not hearing "LOCK" from Betty when my nose is on a bandit inside 10miles while in DF mode can be unbearable at times lol. Still, I had to see it in VR.

I remember begging the different mod teams (for other Viper sim) on Frugalsworld for exportable MFD's and gauges in the wee 2000's. In 2015 I finally get them along with Helios for touchscreens. By late 2016 I'm flying with a 60" 4KUHD TV, 27" Touch screen and am only using the mouse/keyboard to hit fly. Heaven. lol

And then I try DCS in VR......... shit. I have all the modern modules in DCS including FC3 but they were just place holders and time fillers until the Viper was released. Being INSIDE that pit after 20 years of seeing it on a monitor makes up for the long list of missing/incorrect features. For now anyway :D

 

I can see VR making the difference but as of now, i've never tried it.

Buzz

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My $.01 (saving one of the pennies for later!)

 

To begin with, I primarily fly the Viggen, and while I've dabbled in the A-10C and AV8B the F-16 is really in my stable to be my primary modern multi-role. I could go to the F-18, but it just doesn't captivate me like the F-16 does. Crunching the basics of start up, take off, and flight has been fun in the F-16. It is by no means "ready" for real simulation yet, but by that token neither am I on it. What has been useful about flying it "today" has been familiarization with where everything is, and the sort of mentality different controls are built around (take the auto-pilot system for example). Now if you are already flying US built stuff all the time this probably has far less value - but if you fly other frames primarily, there is value today - of course be careful of the bad-reps issue in that certain elements are not correctly modeled now so certain elements are poor lessons.

 

What caught me off guard, and my real reason to write this, was the reverse effect of strapping into the F-16. I went and purchased the MiG19. Flying the Viper clued me in that while I enjoy the fancy tools and what not, I also grew a hankering for something that was all pilot. I don't think (based on flying some of my other "older" modules) I would have appreciated what I now have from the -19 had I not done that. The Viper is primarily making the avionics work for you, the damn thing near flies itself. Mastering that will be fun as the Viper develops further. In the interim, it lead me to (re?) discover some of the modules where flying comes first. I suppose that also gives me something to work on while I wait for the Viper to fill out.

 

You already purchased it, no harm in doing a few fam flights, just don't expect perfection and you'll be happy.

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I think it depends on your situation. I have a lot of "finished" aircraft in my DCS hangar that don't get much flight time.

 

There are some weapons / systems technically "available" in the DCS Viper that I don't use yet, because of the negative training issue. Not that this is a huge deal, but it's something I'm not currently bothering with.

 

However, it's now my favorite DCS aircraft and I'm flying it a ton. I'm mostly focusing on things like basic systems (cold start process, etc.), pinpoint bombing, and just mastering what's currently there. I think the flight model is close enough by this point that refinements aren't going to change anything fundamental, and stuff like landing in a stiff crosswind or on a short field are skills that are always challenging to practice even without combat.

 

In the end, I think you can get out of it what you put into it. There's a lot there already if you really want to dive into it. Or you can be like I was with the Hornet: I flew it only occasionally until it had been out about six months and felt more complete, and it was awesome!

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Obviously this is going to just be my personal opinion and others will inevitably have different feelings.

 

In its current state, the F-16 module is simply not "mission capable" in the sense that it lacks a lot of the core functionality required to fly semi-realistic/plausible F-16C Block 50 missions with it. It is very bare-bones at the moment and while that is fine for some to get started with, for me, it just means that I will very quickly hit functionality gaps that derail my learning process. It makes more sense to me to learn a more complete module since you won't have to relearn as things get added or even undo bad habits as more realistic (and sometimes less "convenient") procedures become required.

 

When the Hornet came out, I really, really tried to get on board with the whole "you can learn it one step at a time like in real life!" thing but the rate of system/functionality additions was so slow that it just made more sense to store it in the virtual hanger while I put time into complete modules. The same happened with the Harrier and the same can be said for the Viper. Now that the Harrier is at a point where it is mission capable (as in, able to complete a mission in a realistic fashion with all the tools it has at its disposal), I have blown off the virtual dust it has gained from sitting in the virtual hanger and have put quite a bit of time into it. When the Hornet is in a similar place, the same will happen there. Hopefully the wait to get full(ish) functionality on the Viper isn't so long as I really am eager to start flying it.

 

Your mileage may obviously vary. Some folks will have different outlooks on what is "mission capable" in DCS and what isn't but this is just my take.

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My $.01 (saving one of the pennies for later!)

 

To begin with, I primarily fly the Viggen, and while I've dabbled in the A-10C and AV8B the F-16 is really in my stable to be my primary modern multi-role. I could go to the F-18, but it just doesn't captivate me like the F-16 does. Crunching the basics of start up, take off, and flight has been fun in the F-16. It is by no means "ready" for real simulation yet, but by that token neither am I on it. What has been useful about flying it "today" has been familiarization with where everything is, and the sort of mentality different controls are built around (take the auto-pilot system for example). Now if you are already flying US built stuff all the time this probably has far less value - but if you fly other frames primarily, there is value today - of course be careful of the bad-reps issue in that certain elements are not correctly modeled now so certain elements are poor lessons.

 

What caught me off guard, and my real reason to write this, was the reverse effect of strapping into the F-16. I went and purchased the MiG19. Flying the Viper clued me in that while I enjoy the fancy tools and what not, I also grew a hankering for something that was all pilot. I don't think (based on flying some of my other "older" modules) I would have appreciated what I now have from the -19 had I not done that. The Viper is primarily making the avionics work for you, the damn thing near flies itself. Mastering that will be fun as the Viper develops further. In the interim, it lead me to (re?) discover some of the modules where flying comes first. I suppose that also gives me something to work on while I wait for the Viper to fill out.

 

You already purchased it, no harm in doing a few fam flights, just don't expect perfection and you'll be happy.

 

If you like doing all the flying yourself. You should buy the F-14.

Buzz

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I just purchased it today, and it seems to not work at all in PG, I hope that changes soon.

also the tutorial section is only start up and taxi. I will have to look at manual.

 

Sure is nice to fly !!!!!

 

 

I paid $59.99 only, I have no idea where the 20 bucks bonus points came from.

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I just purchased it today, and it seems to not work at all in PG, I hope that changes soon.

also the tutorial section is only start up and taxi. I will have to look at manual.

 

Sure is nice to fly !!!!!

 

 

I paid $59.99 only, I have no idea where the 20 bucks bonus points came from.

 

I've been flying the viper online in the PG since day 1... Maybe do a repair?

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Right now it's fun to fly. Whether it's worth your time is up to you.

 

 

 

If you want to be primarily air to air, you'll be ok. It needs some work to be good, like some radar modes and a radar gunsight, etc, but the Hornet has the same BVR limitations ATM.

 

 

 

If you want to be mostly air to ground or multirole, I would wait at least until we can make/edit waypoints so you can designate your own targets, and we get the cursor zero button so you can find your way home.

 

 

 

The biggest holdback to me is the waypoints. I fly mostly AG and multirole missions, so it's important to me to be able to set my own target and IP so I can fly the profile I want to fly. Getting Mavericks and JDAM would be really nice as well.

 

 

 

I think it's a really fun plane, and I'm having a great time, but I probably won't be using it in MP any time soon.

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I can see VR making the difference but as of now, i've never tried it.

 

Paradigm shift my friend. If you're still flying the other Viper sim and happy with using track IR do not try VR lol. Some people still fly sims using both but I couldn't go back. Your are IN THE JET.

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I bought it after the pre-order window and used bonus points to reduce the price down to €55. I buy a lot of modules...

But I would've paid €100 gladly if they asked me to, because looking at the Hornet I know they'll deliver. I also know that it won't be more expensive 1 year from now.

 

There comes a point where "constructive criticism" stops being constructive.

The Viper is ED's most important module from a mass appeal standpoint, and they know it.

Everything's that's missing right now is on their to-do list. They've stated they are working on them as fast as they can. Don't ask them to work faster than they can while simultaneously expecting them to keep the highest standards in the simulation industry.

They are not Ubisoft with thousands of employees.

 

When you only focus on what's missing, it's easy to lose appreciation for what they've accomplished:

The F16C is in DCS, and it's being developed by ED.

And it's flyable. I don't know about you, but I'm an aviation enthousiast and Viper fan not because I'm in love with bombing or AMRAAMs but because I love the act of flying.

It flies, it flies well, it might fly even better in the future, and everything else is just extra to me.

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I bought it after the pre-order window and used bonus points to reduce the price down to €55. I buy a lot of modules...

But I would've paid €100 gladly if they asked me to, because looking at the Hornet I know they'll deliver. I also know that it won't be more expensive 1 year from now.

 

There comes a point where "constructive criticism" stops being constructive.

The Viper is ED's most important module from a mass appeal standpoint, and they know it.

Everything's that's missing right now is on their to-do list. They've stated they are working on them as fast as they can. Don't ask them to work faster than they can while simultaneously expecting them to keep the highest standards in the simulation industry.

They are not Ubisoft with thousands of employees.

 

When you only focus on what's missing, it's easy to lose appreciation for what they've accomplished:

The F16C is in DCS, and it's being developed by ED.

And it's flyable. I don't know about you, but I'm an aviation enthousiast and Viper fan not because I'm in love with bombing or AMRAAMs but because I love the act of flying.

It flies, it flies well, it might fly even better in the future, and everything else is just extra to me.

 

 

Yes, but the Viper is a fighter jet. Without the fight, we might as well be flying a civilian plane. Not really fair of me as I understand the DCS Viper does do AA which is what it does best. I probably won't wait until it's completely done but I want to see more than what it has now. As long as I can fly, navigate, and have complete AA capability i'll buy it. I can fly the A-10C if I want to bomb stuff.

Buzz

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My favorite mission in the F16 is NOE to Target, pop up and drop big bombs on a specific target, then NOE out. Maybe get into some A2A business as well. Current iteration does this very well! For everyone just getting into a multirole fighter I think the F16 is in a perfect place. You aren't over whelmed by too many systems and you are just left with the basics that you will be able to add to as more systems come online. 9 Lines? Pfft Pop Drop and Scoot!

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It's ok to startup, fly around, fiddle with some of the systems, then land. Beyond that in any sort of combat scenario I've found it to be a frustrating experience.

 

 

The showstoppers for me are the broken MFD exports where the contrast is too poor to really make anything out and the inability to edit waypoints. It's really bumming me out that the former isn't even really acknowledged as a bug, same as with the F18's fuzzy exports. I guess there are some LUA bandaids but I've yet to try them on the Viper.

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I bought it after the pre-order window and used bonus points to reduce the price down to €55. I buy a lot of modules...

But I would've paid €100 gladly if they asked me to, because looking at the Hornet I know they'll deliver. I also know that it won't be more expensive 1 year from now.

 

There comes a point where "constructive criticism" stops being constructive.

The Viper is ED's most important module from a mass appeal standpoint, and they know it.

Everything's that's missing right now is on their to-do list. They've stated they are working on them as fast as they can. Don't ask them to work faster than they can while simultaneously expecting them to keep the highest standards in the simulation industry.

They are not Ubisoft with thousands of employees.

 

When you only focus on what's missing, it's easy to lose appreciation for what they've accomplished:

The F16C is in DCS, and it's being developed by ED.

And it's flyable. I don't know about you, but I'm an aviation enthousiast and Viper fan not because I'm in love with bombing or AMRAAMs but because I love the act of flying.

It flies, it flies well, it might fly even better in the future, and everything else is just extra to me.

 

 

I can understand your overall sentiment and in regards to keeping constructive criticism genuinely constructive (as opposed to overly emotional and the like), I agree. Even online, one should feel obligated to be at least civil. It isn't difficult and civility doesn't cost anything.

 

That being said, it is important to not dismiss a very important element at play here. Like the Hornet, the Viper is a massively iconic and very popular aircraft and while Eagle Dynamics is not misleading anyone and are very open about the early access status of these modules, they are also marketing them pretty aggressively and are charging not a small sum for their purchase. It is not unreasonable for those that bought them to at least show some interest (hopefully politely) in the overall plan to get those modules to a complete or at least a state where they are near enough completion to "feel" complete (where you don't hit major functionality gaps when flying realistic missions in authentic ways).

 

As I said before, the Hornet and the Viper are both collecting virtual dust in my virtual hanger until they are further along. This doesn't really upset me but I do hope that the wait isn't so long that it seems unreasonable. I think folks have been rather patient with the Hornet but I hope that ED doesn't take this to mean that we are willing to go through a equally long wait for a project running largely in parallel.

 

Again, civility is important. That said, for many of us, a Viper that can only do very, very basic things isn't really worth actively engaging with yet. That doesn't mean that many of us regret our purchase but it does mean that people will have different views about how fun it is right now and all of those views hold a meaningful amount of water.

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I thought I don't need the Viper. Flew it more then enough in Strike Commander and Falcon 4.0, so it seemed somehow "boring" to me.

 

But then I bought it day one, and since day one I'm not flying anything else. I just love that plane!

 

Sure, it is lacking a lot of systems and a few bugs are very annoying (can't rearm chaff and flares) but beside this it is just awesome!

 

Can it do A2A? Yes. Can it do A2G? Yes. So I'm happy and I'm looking forward towards the evolution of this (in my oppinion) masterpiece of ED to come.

Before you call everything a "bug": RTFM & try again! Thank you. :music_whistling:

 

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I thought I don't need the Viper. Flew it more then enough in Strike Commander and Falcon 4.0, so it seemed somehow "boring" to me.

 

But then I bought it day one, and since day one I'm not flying anything else. I just love that plane!

 

Sure, it is lacking a lot of systems and a few bugs are very annoying (can't rearm chaff and flares) but beside this it is just awesome!

 

Can it do A2A? Yes. Can it do A2G? Yes. So I'm happy and I'm looking forward towards the evolution of this (in my oppinion) masterpiece of ED to come.

 

Agreed. I've found workarounds for A2A, for BVR anyway and the CCIP behavior when dropping bombs seems correct to me even though it does not have FCR functionality for AG yet. Unlike the A10C when you pickle on a target the bombs won't land short/long because of elevation changes. I was expecting the type of bombing the 18 originally came out with but was pleasantly surprised to find it close to what I've been doing for the last 2 decades in the other Viper sim.

I've said it before and I'll say again, I bought a bunch of F-16 parts lol. Put a better way, I bought an F-16A fresh of the assembly line in Ft. Worth TX but with some modern bits added in. For me I would have paid full price if asked to have it in VR. That said, please acknowledge the MFD's look like ass because they do. To say there is nothing wrong with them is to say they will never get better and that is unacceptable.

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