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P51 not fun due to so many problems.


Snapage

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Oh, i know why is that, most ppl dont fly p-51 even less fly MP,but when they read about wep problem, they will jump in to quick mission engage wep check it for 2-3 minutes(what are they talking about everything is fine!!) then quickly exit sesion, after this they come back and say i have never ever blow engine in p-51.

I have my engine blown numerous times(no it wasn't too high temp, i wil ltell you that in p-51 you can exceed coolant temp with no harm to the engine i did it couple of times but ppl who flies p-51 regulary should know that and they should not bring temps in the first place as reason for engine jamm after using wep), right now i engage wep only when i see my airfield and i am sure that i will glide back if engine jamm.

 

Ok, try to perform a test simulating dogfight: fly 5 minutes with WEP, watching temperatures to be sure you are within limits (looping without stalls at the top, boom-zoom, etc), then 15 minutes at TO (61/3000) and then - you are on your way home (46/2700) 1 hour RTB.

A good idea is to use ACTIVE PAUSE and accelerated time after you have steady speed for this power rate.


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Ok, try to perform a test simulating dogfight: fly 5 minutes with WEP, watching temperatures to be sure you are within limits (looping without stalls at the top, boom-zoom, etc), then 15 minutes at TO (61/3000) and then - you are on your way home (46/2700) 1 hour RTB.

A good idea is to use ACTIVE PAUSE and accelerated time after you have steady speed for this power rate.

 

i will try that, but i used to use wep in another way, i used short up to 1 min bursts once at a time. Normaly when i am striking in p-51 i use 46"/2700 there is no point using any higher power while diving.

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1 min x 5 = 5 min

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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I use WEP in 1 hour long flights. No problems so far as long as you don't surpass 5 min active time and you nurse your temps. Maybe I'm lucky, dunno.

 

 

It could have been fixed since I last tested it in august this year. I tested it then bacause the FW190D9 MW50/WEP was fixed and I thought maybe the P51D was changed as well(it wasn't though). There have been quite a few changes that have been made to WW2 aircraft including the P51D that have not been mentioned in the patch notes.

 

Maybe I will have to test it again when I have time. I am also thinking that using WEP then landing, turning the engine off and leaving the plane sitting there for an hour or so and then coming back to see if engine starts would show that it still exists.


Edited by Snapage
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what about 5x5min in single flight ??

 

On your own risk. 5 minuts of WEP leads to ground maitanence and checking the engine.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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On your own risk. 5 minutes of WEP leads to ground maintenance and checking the engine.

I think according to manual it was more like fact of breaking stop wire leads to additional ground checking, it wasn't mentioned if it was 1 minute or 10 minutes of operation. for me 5min limit is continuous use for 5 minutes, if engine cools down you can go for another wep it would be specifically pointed in manual that 5 minute use of wep for single flight, i could bet my head on it.

Another thing is that 5 minutes of wep operation cant be on verge of engine limit. It would be so hard for pilots to not exceed this limit by mistake, another thing designers had to anticipate that engine could be in not 100% condition if this 5 min was at the verge of limit slightly used engine had to be banned from wep use. = pretty much all p-51 in wartime circumstances.

 

In one p-51 manual after 5h or 10h of accumulated wep operation lead to engine disassembly for interior parts check, wonder how many engines made it to this point.


Edited by grafspee

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It doesn´t say maintenance after 5 minutes WEP. Less than 5 minutes at a time, but not ONLY 5 minutes in total. Maintenance after 5 hours.

 

 

 

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=220611&stc=1&d=1572969946

 

"If i use wep for more then 5 minutes at a time." im not good at English, how exactly should i understand this sentence.

Is it 5 minutes in single use or 5 minutes in total use. It it is 5 minutes total, for me in this manual it isnt represented unequivocally, so going that way military power is limited to 15 minutes total because on engine limits chart those numbers are represented exact the same.

I dont know what are they trying to say, that wep is not giving anything below 5000ft ?? I find on performance charts the biggest improvements over 61"are below 5k ft, anyway 5000 ft is so close to 67" crit alt that probably above 6-7k ft there is no difference in performance.

But for me it mean that more then 5 minutes of continuous use of wep will lead to risk engine damage.

Another thing, 5 minutes of Wep continous cant be equivalent of 10x30s use of wep with decent brakes between.

usaaf-p-51-aircraft-flight-operation-cards_14566_pic2_size3.jpg


Edited by grafspee

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Well, 5 minutes at a time means: Start stopwatch, move throttle to WEP position... before stopwatch exceedes 5 minutes, reduce throttle below WEP.

 

 

Note the time you were in WEP range, report it to the mechanics. Inspection is needed. When 5h in total are used, then knock down mainanence is mandatory

 

 

Thats how I understand it

 

 

 

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Well, 5 minutes at a time means: Start stopwatch, move throttle to WEP position... before stopwatch exceedes 5 minutes, reduce throttle below WEP.

 

 

Note the time you were in WEP range, report it to the mechanics. Inspection is needed. When 5h in total are used, then knock down maintenance is mandatory

 

 

Thats how I understand it

 

 

 

Fox

 

Well exactly, same as me. There is no obvious mention that 5 minute is total use of wep during single flight, if there was one i think it would be represented pretty clear in manual,

So use wep continuously for longer then 5 minutes is danger for engine that manual is saying,

So plenty uses for shorter time like short burst 20-30 second should not be a problem if done with decent intervals. Ofc total use of wep had to be reported to mechanics so they could track this 5h mark for grand disassemble.

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Good i can with ease fly 20 min WEP in a straight Line?

Then we should open immediately a BUG Report Thread...

 

No, manual says only that pilot is risking engine damage when wep is used longer then 5 minutes.

5 minute mark is only guarantee from manufacture.

i've read after action reports where pilots were claming that they run WEP for much longer then 5 minute with no damage to the engine.

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Just tested it took off, climbed to 5k ft 46"2700

then i went for WEP 2':54''.40 this much time took me to jamm engine

Radiators as adviced on AUTO coolant temp about 112C oil below 90C

How ppl can fly at WEP for 1 hour i have no idea.

I did second test managed to fly for 4'50'' but after landing when i ask for repair i got the timer, so something got damaged temps did not exceed limits at any point of flight

Just seconds before engine dead

 

QBtCzCg.jpg

Nh3kZRU.jpg


Edited by grafspee

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You guys want to start a separate post about this WEP, or continue it on a pre-existing one? I'd like to see more items that we'd wish to see for the Mustang, or a different item get some discussion

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Good i can with ease fly 20 min WEP in a straight Line?

Then we should open immediately a BUG Report Thread...

 

The last time I checked WEP makes the engine fail at a random time. Does not matter how long you use it for, it can be 1 minutes 5 minutes or entire flight. The engine will fail at some point but it's random. When testing the longest I flew on WEP for before engine died was about 45 to 50 minutes, I was running low on fuel by then.

 

I wish WEP could be used in a similar fasion to the FW190D9s WEP. The 190 can do 10 minutes of WEP max at a time. It would make sence to me after reading the P51D flight manual that the P51D WEP should be useable for 5 minutes at a time. The P51D manual says that WEP should only be used for 5 minutes at a time, that time in WEP needs to be recorded and after 5 hours of accumulated WEP time the engine needs a strip down inspection. If the engine can accumulate 5 hours of WEP the surely it shouldn't be breaking after just 5 minutes(Or even less atm).

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You guys want to start a separate post about this WEP, or continue it on a pre-existing one? I'd like to see more items that we'd wish to see for the Mustang, or a different item get some discussion

 

Every topic about p-51 is ending up with WEP discussion. We cant do anything about that :P

When some one says thet he can fly p-51 at wep until end of fuel, sometimes i think that im playing in different sim :P in my case my engine breaks after too long military power operation.


Edited by grafspee

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I can not admit your point of view. What nuances of Merlin do you want to see? Manifold pressure drop as rpm rises? They truly modeled in DCS using our thermodynamic model. R-R manifold pressure imperfection? You can encounter it any time you climb at 46/2700 and have to advance the throttl gradually to reach critical altitude keeping 46". Do you see it in other combat sim?

 

True supercharger model: at 25C try set 2000 rpm with the prop governor, then fully open the throttle. In this case MP regulator does not work, because actual MP is lower than 61". Note the MP. Then try it at -20C, for example. Note the MP.

Try it in other games.

 

Bendix-Stromberg carburettor modelled with all its internal logic.

 

The attention to the detail and love we give for the engines... Try to Abbremsen procedure for FW 190A-8 in DCS then compare to other games. Try warm-up procedure checking the relief valve work (oil pressure limits) for cold and warm oil respectively. Try the same in any other sim you like.

 

Please read and respond. If it doesn't ask too much, I'd appreciate a thorough response, as I haven't gotten any from my threads regarding issues for the Mustang, and I consider this a rare opportunity to get the attention of someone out of ED in their own forums.

 

My dynamics I desire largely refer to aesthetics of details, startup, and warmup. For example, the Mustang does not require any level of finesse to start. I could start it in DCS, first try, sound muted and blindfolded. And I will add that engines are not constantly warmed up in a ready state. If I start my Mustang in -10C temperatures in DCS, the coolant, carb and engine temperature will attempt to reflect this, as some gauges can't get to such extremes. This may seem like an obvious point, but I've seen arguments saying that the engines during the war were kept in a warm and scramble-ready state, and I'm going to clear that this is very much not the case in DCS. I'm not suggesting that this become a feature, just to make references to videos more clear. If anything, the Mustangs in videos are in a warmer state than in DCS, as some may be doing multiple flights in a day for air shows. There is too much consistently and reliability in engine start.

And I do realize that engines today are in different conditions from War time, but being the museum pieces they are, they are kept in best condition.

Additionally, priming is wonky. It hardly requires any to start in most situations with standard weather conditions.

 

Examples:

[9 minutes in]

 

You cannot deny that something is missing. The Merlin does not have a consistent start like it does in DCS, regardless of conditions. I can't describe what exactly is happening to make even starting a warbird require some level of skill, but I can recognize that something isn't quite right with the dynamics (or lack thereof) of the Mustang (and Spitfire's!) startup. And cutting to idle poses no risk of losing the engine whatsoever in DCS, also regardless of weather.

 

Additionally there is the warmup. In DCS, when these birds start, they run seemingly without any level of roughness, and at a constant speed. At idle (both fully retarded throttle and the slightly forward position under 1000RPM), immediately after startup, the DCS Mustang is smooth as butter. Meanwhile in real counterpart, the engine will throttle, pause, throttle, pause, throttle, pause, of it's own accord, without the pilot jockeying the throttle. You can see this in Kermit Week's P-51D part 2 and 3. And in his video, even after flying, the Merlin would still throttle and then make a short pause after having flown, and cut to idle. I haven't noticed in Kermit's video if the manifold pressure and/or RPM gauges bounce with the uneven tempo of the engine, but if they do, seeing this represented in the cockpit and via sound as well would be excellent.

 

Another thing that bothers me is the aesthetics, or lack thereof. Largely being the missing overprime flames (which were on the Spitfire up until this last update, and are currently missing in the Spitfire as well, there is a bug thread on this...), starting smoke (this would especially be important for the R-2800 of the P-47 and F4U), engine fire tuning (this is probably more related to DM than Mustang), coolant and aftercoolant pressure relief added (or if they are, make them bloody visible, one Mustang pilot had his coolant doors in auto on the ground, and upon takeoff his coolant relief popped and it sprayed his windscreen, so it's very much visible on reality, I've quoted this pilot and others in my coolant/aftercoolant relief thread...), and the shaking and momentum added to gauges. The gauges currently are unaffected by the shaking of the aircraft. Two that actually do have somewhat dynamic are the manifold and RPM gauges, which bounce with changes of the throttle and RPM, but not the shaking of the aircraft and their own momentum. The most extreme example ai can give is actually the fuel gauge in the Spitfire, of which when the button is pressed, the needle with shake and bounce around the reading.

 

Please respond in thorough. I've never gotten a clear response from anyone regarding nearly all of the issues I've listed here.


Edited by Magic Zach
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Please read and respond. If it doesn't ask too much, I'd appreciate a thorough response, as I haven't gotten any from my threads regarding issues for the Mustang, and I consider this a rare opportunity to get the attention of someone out of ED in their own forums.

 

My dynamics I desire largely refer to aesthetics of details, startup, and warmup. For example, the Mustang does not require any level of finesse to start. I could start it in DCS, first try, sound muted and blindfolded. And I will add that engines are not constantly warmed up in a ready state. If I start my Mustang in -10C temperatures in DCS, the coolant, carb and engine temperature will attempt to reflect this, as some gauges can't get to such extremes. This may seem like an obvious point, but I've seen arguments saying that the engines during the war were kept in a warm and scramble-ready state, and I'm going to clear that this is very much not the case in DCS. I'm not suggesting that this become a feature, just to make references to videos more clear. If anything, the Mustangs in videos are in a warmer state than in DCS, as some may be doing multiple flights in a day for air shows. There is too much consistently and reliability in engine start.

And I do realize that engines today are in different conditions from War time, but being the museum pieces they are, they are kept in best condition.

Additionally, priming is wonky. It hardly requires any to start in most situations with standard weather conditions.

 

Examples:

[9 minutes in]

 

You cannot deny that something is missing. The Merlin does not have a consistent start like it does in DCS, regardless of conditions. I can't describe what exactly is happening to make even starting a warbird require some level of skill, but I can recognize that something isn't quite right with the dynamics (or lack thereof) of the Mustang (and Spitfire's!) startup. And cutting to idle poses no risk of losing the engine whatsoever in DCS, also regardless of weather.

 

Additionally there is the warmup. In DCS, when these birds start, they run seemingly without any level of roughness, and at a constant speed. At idle (both fully retarded throttle and the slightly forward position under 1000RPM), immediately after startup, the DCS Mustang is smooth as butter. Meanwhile in real counterpart, the engine will throttle, pause, throttle, pause, throttle, pause, of it's own accord, without the pilot jockeying the throttle. You can see this in Kermit Week's P-51D part 2 and 3. And in his video, even after flying, the Merlin would still throttle and then make a short pause after having flown, and cut to idle. I haven't noticed in Kermit's video if the manifold pressure and/or RPM gauges bounce with the uneven tempo of the engine, but if they do, seeing this represented in the cockpit and via sound as well would be excellent.

 

Another thing that bothers me is the aesthetics, or lack thereof. Largely being the missing overprime flames (which were on the Spitfire up until this last update, and are currently missing in the Spitfire as well, there is a bug thread on this...), starting smoke (this would especially be important for the R-2800 of the P-47 and F4U), engine fire tuning (this is probably more related to DM than Mustang), coolant and aftercoolant pressure relief added (or if they are, make them bloody visible, one Mustang pilot had his coolant doors in auto on the ground, and upon takeoff his coolant relief popped and it sprayed his windscreen, so it's very much visible on reality, I've quoted this pilot and others in my coolant/aftercoolant relief thread...), and the shaking and momentum added to gauges. The gauges currently are unaffected by the shaking of the aircraft. Two that actually do have somewhat dynamic are the manifold and RPM gauges, which bounce with changes of the throttle and RPM, but not the shaking of the aircraft and their own momentum. The most extreme example ai can give is actually the fuel gauge in the Spitfire, of which when the button is pressed, the needle with shake and bounce around the reading.

 

Please respond in thorough. I've never gotten a clear response from anyone regarding nearly all of the issues I've listed here.

 

I can tell you why dcs p-51 starts so smooth, in real p-51 starts on primer fuel so when primer fuel is burned off and fuel from carb isnt in manifold yet you got this brake in combustion.

Carb in DCS is jumping in instantly, remember that pilot is cranking p-51 at cut off position so no fuel from carb until pilot move lever to run position but still it will not introduce fuel imidietly to the engine, and road from carb to manifold is long, in cold conditions evaporation is lower so pre-priming is longer as well as need of longer priming after engine starts combustion. And DCs has non of that, same with instant reaction to cut off position ,engine stops combustion even before cut off lever animation completes. After cut off is engaged i bet that inlet have enough air/fuel mixture to run engine for 2-3 seconds(this is very well visible in kermit's p-51 cam series).In DCS fuel travell faster then light in intake :)


Edited by grafspee

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Please read and respond. If it doesn't ask too much, I'd appreciate a thorough response, as I haven't gotten any from my threads regarding issues for the Mustang, and I consider this a rare opportunity to get the attention of someone out of ED in their own forums.

 

My dynamics I desire largely refer to aesthetics of details, startup, and warmup. For example, the Mustang does not require any level of finesse to start. I could start it in DCS, first try, sound muted and blindfolded. And I will add that engines are not constantly warmed up in a ready state. If I start my Mustang in -10C temperatures in DCS, the coolant, carb and engine temperature will attempt to reflect this, as some gauges can't get to such extremes. This may seem like an obvious point, but I've seen arguments saying that the engines during the war were kept in a warm and scramble-ready state, and I'm going to clear that this is very much not the case in DCS. I'm not suggesting that this become a feature, just to make references to videos more clear. If anything, the Mustangs in videos are in a warmer state than in DCS, as some may be doing multiple flights in a day for air shows. There is too much consistently and reliability in engine start.

And I do realize that engines today are in different conditions from War time, but being the museum pieces they are, they are kept in best condition.

Additionally, priming is wonky. It hardly requires any to start in most situations with standard weather conditions.

 

Examples:

[9 minutes in]

 

You cannot deny that something is missing. The Merlin does not have a consistent start like it does in DCS, regardless of conditions. I can't describe what exactly is happening to make even starting a warbird require some level of skill, but I can recognize that something isn't quite right with the dynamics (or lack thereof) of the Mustang (and Spitfire's!) startup. And cutting to idle poses no risk of losing the engine whatsoever in DCS, also regardless of weather.

 

Additionally there is the warmup. In DCS, when these birds start, they run seemingly without any level of roughness, and at a constant speed. At idle (both fully retarded throttle and the slightly forward position under 1000RPM), immediately after startup, the DCS Mustang is smooth as butter. Meanwhile in real counterpart, the engine will throttle, pause, throttle, pause, throttle, pause, of it's own accord, without the pilot jockeying the throttle. You can see this in Kermit Week's P-51D part 2 and 3. And in his video, even after flying, the Merlin would still throttle and then make a short pause after having flown, and cut to idle. I haven't noticed in Kermit's video if the manifold pressure and/or RPM gauges bounce with the uneven tempo of the engine, but if they do, seeing this represented in the cockpit and via sound as well would be excellent.

 

Another thing that bothers me is the aesthetics, or lack thereof. Largely being the missing overprime flames (which were on the Spitfire up until this last update, and are currently missing in the Spitfire as well, there is a bug thread on this...), starting smoke (this would especially be important for the R-2800 of the P-47 and F4U), engine fire tuning (this is probably more related to DM than Mustang), coolant and aftercoolant pressure relief added (or if they are, make them bloody visible, one Mustang pilot had his coolant doors in auto on the ground, and upon takeoff his coolant relief popped and it sprayed his windscreen, so it's very much visible on reality, I've quoted this pilot and others in my coolant/aftercoolant relief thread...), and the shaking and momentum added to gauges. The gauges currently are unaffected by the shaking of the aircraft. Two that actually do have somewhat dynamic are the manifold and RPM gauges, which bounce with changes of the throttle and RPM, but not the shaking of the aircraft and their own momentum. The most extreme example ai can give is actually the fuel gauge in the Spitfire, of which when the button is pressed, the needle with shake and bounce around the reading.

 

Please respond in thorough. I've never gotten a clear response from anyone regarding nearly all of the issues I've listed here.

 

I don't want to have to waste 10 minutes starting and warming up the engine for every flight. What is important is the flight characteristics. Please make a new thread if you want to change the subject. I want to focus on the things I have mentioned in this thread:

 

The WEP being unreliable.

Pilot death on crash landing.

P51D guns effecivness.

The control surfaces falling off without any indicatition apart from speed guage.

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What are your thoughts and experiences?

 

I am not changing the topic, I am adding to it. I will talk about issues that I think need to be addressed. You made this thread and asked for further input, and I gave it. Don't step on me like this again.

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I am not changing the topic, I am adding to it. I will talk about issues that I think need to be addressed. You made this thread and asked for further input, and I gave it. Don't step on me like this again.

 

 

:megalol:

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