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Have the Hornet devs moved back from the Viper?


Arctander

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The intent of this thread is starting to get fuzzy at this point.

 

Consider this OP - it is better for all involved, including the consumer, if two ‘big ticket’ modules are available, rather than not. If we are happy to buy, then making the product available to sell is a good thing. We then get the ultimate choice of investment.

 

To the subject of this thread – this is being blown way out of proportion. There is the presumption that this temporary resource reallocation to the Viper is only detrimental, without considering the advantages of shared development pathways over the course of early access. Which I can only imagine is because the OP feels one or several systems have been compromised in the immediate future. If that is the case, then it comes back to the decision made to take part in early access, a period where the order and rate of development is understood to be dynamic.

 

Did you buy in too soon, OP?

 

If it is not one or several specific features, and simply the principal of timely delivery and adequate early access product support, then consider the benefits of parallel development and don’t focus on periodic compromises, which will happen. Also use a metric of comparison - the only fair comparison would be third party developers, as they are developing the same products within the same ecosystem. They too have multi year early access periods, and manage development in parallel, especially on complex fourth gen aircraft.

 

Would it also be reasonable to assume that this is the only instance of resource reallocation during development of a module? I honestly don’t believe so, but I also don’t see a problem with that.

 

I see the only issue here being the expectation placed by some on early access. Make no mistake, we all want completed modules, and if it is missing key features when it is released out of early access, I would be asking questions too.

 

 

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Agreed. I think they need an income stream separate from planes and maps to be able to find improvements to the core sim, and remove the reliance on pumping out EA module after EA module.

 

It would require I think a ‘major version’ paid update. You can choose not to update and still fly all the planes you have purchased. Paying for the update is the for the core sim, any planes purchase are licences you you for any major version release. I would expect MP servers would update to the latest versions

 

Anything is better than this ‘robbing Peter to pay Paul’ EA focus.

 

I agree, and I don't think this would kill the community. They could keep their free offering. Software that is evolving like DCS-World can justify a subscription. Of course they need to keep delivering core features, but the backlog items that people are demanding will keep them busy for a long time.

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No I think he is right,because don't buy a early access product,when you don't know what it means.

 

It is Final when its final and should cost 99$ then.

 

And please ED,don't put EA Products on Sale anymore, before the actually Product is Final.

 

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Ok, but that means we wouldn't have the Hornet or the Viper right now and I think I was first attracted to the product BECAUSE they had the Hornet, and frankly I don't care it's not perfect.

 

I know it's a sim-first product and not really for casual users, and eventually I will be as picky as half the people on this forum, but honestly they need to expand their user base quickly or die.

 

Am I misunderstanding you? You think they should simply never release an incomplete plane ever?

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Ok, but that means we wouldn't have the Hornet or the Viper right now and I think I was first attracted to the product BECAUSE they had the Hornet, and frankly I don't care it's not perfect.

 

I know it's a sim-first product and not really for casual users, and eventually I will be as picky as half the people on this forum, but honestly they need to expand their user base quickly or die.

 

Am I misunderstanding you? You think they should simply never release an incomplete plane ever?

 

And for expanding the user base they are making a whole other standalone product MAC which is doubtless also stealing resource.

 

It is clear as day that they are stretched too thin in a hunt for new user and cash from existing users. I wonder if Mac has been delayed more than expected so they had to push out the Viper earlier than planned, with the consequential knock on to the hornet - but ED won’t say.

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And for expanding the user base they are making a whole other standalone product MAC which is doubtless also stealing resource.

 

It is clear as day that they are stretched too thin in a hunt for new user and cash from existing users. I wonder if Mac has been delayed more than expected so they had to push out the Viper earlier than planned, with the consequential knock on to the hornet - but ED won’t say.

 

We already explained this, it has nothing to do with MAC, the Viper needed added support, the Hornet guys are slowing moving back, let's not try and make it more than it was, we tried to be very clear and open about this, no need to look for the conspiracy.

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Ok, but that means we wouldn't have the Hornet or the Viper right now and I think I was first attracted to the product BECAUSE they had the Hornet, and frankly I don't care it's not perfect.

 

 

 

I know it's a sim-first product and not really for casual users, and eventually I will be as picky as half the people on this forum, but honestly they need to expand their user base quickly or die.

 

 

 

Am I misunderstanding you? You think they should simply never release an incomplete plane ever?

No, EA is ok for me,but why a reduced price on Sale,before the Module is Finally ready?

 

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You get a reduced price if you pre-purchase in order to take part in the EA.
Yes before the EA Release and that's ok,but why was the FA/18 already on Sale last time,before its Final Release?

 

 

 

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Yes before the EA Release and that's ok,but why was the FA/18 already on Sale last time,before its Final Release?

 

 

 

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All modules that have been out to the public after a certain amount of time can and will go on sale when a sale happens.

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@hughlb.

 

Did I buy in too soon? Yes and no. I bought in knowing more was to come. I bought in expecting it be continually supported to the best of ED’s ability and not speed down to produce another module to hit a self imposed deadline.

 

If Ed has said at the time ‘it will take > 2 years and we will move developers off it in a year and a half’s time and use that resource to bring systems to another plane in ea before you get them’ then I likely wouldn’t have bought in at the time (though in all likelihood I would have done so by now) That’s both in Ed for not making the timeframe clear at purchase, and on me for not knowing EDs development capabilities and history.

 

And yes - the slow down and wait for a TGP of a year (still incomplete) and TWS, AZ-EL, no Proper ins or ins stabilised RWR etc is immensely frustrating when we see these things coming to the Viper that releases a year and a half after. I hear about ‘parallel’ devlopment but that doesn’t mean the Viper should get things first when others have been waiting longer. So far all the benefits of this have gone to the Viper that we can see.

 

If I had a viper I might be a little more amenable to it as I could see these things coming to something I have - but as I don’t have the Viper (not going to buy until the hornet and it are complete this time!) it stings that for all the talk of ‘shared’ development benefits I am yet to see ANY of it, and it’s been three months almost.

 

but my main concern is that ED cannot develop at full force the ea products they have put out at the same time without compromising on one or the other and to me that speaks to a gap between what they need to do and what they can do, which makes me afraid given Nick Greys public statement on how important ea is for their continued survival as to what the future holds.

 

And lastly - with all of this going on, which I think everyone objectively can understand the community frustrations, I am yet to see any acknowledgement from Ed that doing it in this way has been a mistake in the eyes of many.

 

First rule of business - if you make a mistake and upset your community, apologise. Say why it has happened (which to be fair they have even though it raised more concerns to me than answers) and then state what you will do to stop it happening again. I am yet to see a meaningful former, and we’ve seen little of the latter.

 

There have been statements by the community managers that ‘we’re working on it

And ‘lots of hard work to come’ - but this is vague and can be construed as platitudes. I want to understand what concrete steps and actions they will take to prevent it happening again. They have said a roadmap with priorities will come - and I am very interested to see that.


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And lastly - with all of this going on, which I think everyone objectively can understand the community frustrations, I am yet to see any acknowledgement from Ed that doing it in this way has been a mistake in the eyes of many.
Have you considered they might not agree with you and that you do not represent any form of consensus with your view?

 

If you look at the recent reviews of DCS on Steam they are "Very Positive" (Steam's words not mine). We have no visibility of the sales of modules or the purchasing trends which would be indicative of any strategic business "mistake".

 

How are the "eyes of many" determined? An unhappy majority or a small vocal minority? Sure the latter can be unsettling as bad press. Yet it seems to me attempts to actually explain the process in this thread by ED staff are simply ignored with some expectation of agreement with a theory on how they should run their business which just isn't going to happen.

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I understand that ED needs EA to generate income and it gives us a great opportunity to wrestle with planes a little earlier. However, there seems to be disconnect between the expectactions of a part of community and the actual EA model by ED. Regardless of whether the community is overreacting/not understanding the EA model or whether ED is at fault, I reckon that a considerable number of EA sales are returning customers and already part of the DCS community. So the current negative sentiment within the Hornet community, again regardless of whether it is grounded or not, may also be hurting ED's future EA sales. There is a considerable number of people that have already mentioned they would no longer participate in EA in its current format. What I am a bit surprised though is ED's reluctance to nip this unrest in the bud. Throw some bones at the hornet community; for example, while there used to be frequent mini-updates these are now more or less once a month. The community manager's "we'll update you once we have something" is of course a bit easy. There is always something to update, it doesn't have to be a new weapon system every time; post a screenshot, do a brief dev interview, explain in a post why coding TWS is not straightforward, or why PB on the HARM takes longer that the PB modes of a JDAM, etc. Create some understanding and transparency in the community. Then again, it could also be that the unhappy hornet community is just a fraction of an overall satisfied consumer base and the current long EA period does not impact future sales, I guess only ED knows the answer to that.

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Have you considered they might not agree with you and that you do not represent any form of consensus with your view?

 

Well if s/he doesn't express their view, those with a similar view aren't going to be able to form a consensus are they. These types of threads are becoming more common, so ED should take it onboard, even if they do decide to take no particular action.

 

...Yet it seems to me attempts to actually explain the process in this thread by ED staff are simply ignored...

 

Only a fraction of customers will frequent this form, an even small fraction of which will have read this thread. ED explaining in this thread is not addressing the issue.

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Well if s/he doesn't express their view, those with a similar view aren't going to be able to form a consensus are they. These types of threads are becoming more common, so ED should take it onboard, even if they do decide to take no particular action.

 

Only a fraction of customers will frequent this form, an even small fraction of which will have read this thread. ED explaining in this thread is not addressing the issue.

To both comments I am referring to the original posters comments on page 17 of this thread, not the original.

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I understand that ED needs EA to generate income and it gives us a great opportunity to wrestle with planes a little earlier. However, there seems to be disconnect between the expectactions of a part of community and the actual EA model by ED. Regardless of whether the community is overreacting/not understanding the EA model or whether ED is at fault, I reckon that a considerable number of EA sales are returning customers and already part of the DCS community. So the current negative sentiment within the Hornet community, again regardless of whether it is grounded or not, may also be hurting ED's future EA sales. There is a considerable number of people that have already mentioned they would no longer participate in EA in its current format. What I am a bit surprised though is ED's reluctance to nip this unrest in the bud. Throw some bones at the hornet community; for example, while there used to be frequent mini-updates these are now more or less once a month. The community manager's "we'll update you once we have something" is of course a bit easy. There is always something to update, it doesn't have to be a new weapon system every time; post a screenshot, do a brief dev interview, explain in a post why coding TWS is not straightforward, or why PB on the HARM takes longer that the PB modes of a JDAM, etc. Create some understanding and transparency in the community. Then again, it could also be that the unhappy hornet community is just a fraction of an overall satisfied consumer base and the current long EA period does not impact future sales, I guess only ED knows the answer to that.
Very well said! Couldn't more agree with your statement @vincentb
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And lastly - with all of this going on, which I think everyone objectively can understand the community frustrations, I am yet to see any acknowledgement from Ed that doing it in this way has been a mistake in the eyes of many.

 

You know that on internet forums, usually not the whole client base is commenting, right? Also usually only a part of people with some sort of gripe tend to post this kind of posts, so it is skewed from the start.

 

I, for one, am totally happy with how fast the F-18 is progressing and how the F-16 has been introduced. And I dont run to the forums every week just to post how pleased I am. And I know other players who feel similar.

 

Neither you nor I know which group is a majority, or even how big each group is. People criticizing stuff tend to be more vocal about it, making that "negative" group seem bigger as it is.

 

In the end the only sensible thing for ED is to do what they deem right. These threads here really fill no other purpose but venting, at this point, and are not helpful at all.

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Although many of us will consider DCS “hardcore” there exists a niche enthusiast community within the wider customer base who are even more hardcore. I think we might be surprised how many customers find DCS to be a realistic experience compared to other combat flight sims yet don’t know the ins and outs of every aircraft and are more accepting of systems not being fully complete. They will learn about them as and when they get added.

 

Also my best experience of Early Access was with a rally driving simulation where the community was able to give a lot of feedback to help development. This lasted close to two years and the initial product was very bare bones. I think expectations and implementations of Early Access can vary wildly.

 

That said even if I don’t see myself as a hardcore combat flight simmer (I have an awful lot to learn) I do see this niche enthusiast community (who do have an in depth understanding and very high expectations of quality) to be extremely important to the developers. If the developers aspirations are for maximum realism this is the primary group for determining satisfaction of achieving those goals.

 

Yet from a business perspective it is highly likely this is a minority group albeit vocal on forums and isn’t necessarily a measure of commercial success.

 

I think it is all very well to push developers for the highest quality and complete projects yet stating it is best for their business may be wide of the mark.

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Throwing my name in the hat of people who feel slighted by ED's business practices regarding EA and their commitment to finish older modules.

 

Making the Viper a higher priority than the Hornet is a blatant slap in the face to all the people who bought the Hornet. 2 Months after the Viper release and we still aren't seeing anything done on the Hornet. Giving the Viper new, long awaited and promised, features before the Hornet gets them is absolutely ridiculous. Developing new tech and sharing across modules? Great, lets start with the modules that have been out the longest, fix and add features to THEM first, since you know, you've had our money for years at this point.

 

This was a good thing in a way for me, as someone who has spent many hundreds of dollars on modules, It solidified my decision to not spend another penny on ED products, EA or otherwise, until some positive change is realized.

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Hi all

 

As mentioned by nineline earlier in the thread, and in the news letter the team are making a hard push on the F-18.

 

Just a note, product feedback and constructive criticism is encouraged when provided in a mature and courteous manner. So please keep it civil, also for those of you not sure about the forum rules I would suggest having a read before posting.

 

thank you.

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Nonsense. This is the primary way of dissatisfied people to make their feelings known.

 

Nonsense. This is unhelpful, unconstructive flailing and doesn't help anyone one bit.

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no one cares about the walleye (maybe a couple people do), when the targeting pod can't slew to waypoints, nor can you see it on the hud... sorry... but the walleye is like you trying to take credit for work in progress toward the SLAM ER... but after 2 years, there's no more credit for works in progress. We want some finished systems in the hornet and we want some more attention to the under-performing flight model... and i speak for a huge majority of hornet owners that have more civility than i. Only then will these kinds of threads stop appearing.

 

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