F/A-18 vs F-16 Turn rate?

[karasawa]

After the latest update the Viper can now outrate the Fulcrum.

[darkman222]

Interesting. Because the changelog did not mention any work on the FM. The changelog didnt even mention the FM for the past 2 updates, including this smaller update we had few days ago, thats what I meant.

Edited October 30, 2021 by darkman222

[karasawa]

F16 already outrates Mig29 after patch 2.7.2. Just noticed that.

[captain_dalan]

8 hours ago, karasawa said:

F16 already outrates Mig29 after patch 2.7.2. Just noticed that.

Yep, it's been a while, though not that great a while

[Top Jockey]

My 2 cents,

 

Motivated by the various patches, of which I've read the DCS F-16's flight model was updated (for better), I've returned to the F-16 again yesterday after some time flying mostly the F-14 and F/A-18.

- not that I can easily perceive by eye a much better sustained turn rate capability (as I'm a single player guy), but I can win a dogfight against A.I. Ace level JF-17, and every other jet (excluding MiG-15);

- people also talked several times about the DCS Hornet's somewhat 'inflated' sustained turn rate; well against the A.I. flight model I don't have any particular difficulty in beating them also... but it could be interesting to fly against a human pilot in the Hornet (as the AI flight model can be unrealistic);

- other than that, even years after several other F-16 sims, it's always outstanding to fully use the F-16's HOTAS concept again, which for much that I also praise the Hornet's cockpit, avionics, HOTAS, and weapons employment logic, I think the F-16 does have a more refined way on those;

... also I'm still waiting for the spot / scan functions for the AIM-9. 

 

Having said that, thank you ED for keep improving the F-16.

[gavagai]

On 10/30/2021 at 9:43 AM, karasawa said:

F16 already outrates Mig29 after patch 2.7.2. Just noticed that.

You will still get eaten alive by the Flaming Cliffs F-15C.  At least, don't drop below 500 knots or you are toast.

[karasawa]

20 minutes ago, gavagai said:

You will still get eaten alive by the Flaming Cliffs F-15C.  At least, don't drop below 500 knots or you are toast.

I guess you are hampered by wing pylons?

[gavagai]

10 minutes ago, karasawa said:

I guess you are hampered by wing pylons?

Nope.  And before you say it, I can beat the same guy F-16 versus F-16, but either one of us will win when are in the Flaming Cliffs F-15C.  The F-16 is still very outmatched in BFM compared to the Flaming Cliffs F-15C.

[irq11]

I did (unrealistic of course) a simple test : set fuel to 1%, and set option fuel unlimited, just two aim-9x on wing tip, no pylons.
in this case, it seems to me that we are close to what the ITR of the F-16 could be.

[captain_dalan]

On 11/1/2021 at 3:56 PM, Top Jockey said:

My 2 cents,

 

Motivated by the various patches, of which I've read the DCS F-16's flight model was updated (for better), I've returned to the F-16 again yesterday after some time flying mostly the F-14 and F/A-18.

- not that I can easily perceive by eye a much better sustained turn rate capability (as I'm a single player guy), but I can win a dogfight against A.I. Ace level JF-17, and every other jet (excluding MiG-15);

- people also talked several times about the DCS Hornet's somewhat 'inflated' sustained turn rate; well against the A.I. flight model I don't have any particular difficulty in beating them also... but it could be interesting to fly against a human pilot in the Hornet (as the AI flight model can be unrealistic);

- other than that, even years after several other F-16 sims, it's always outstanding to fully use the F-16's HOTAS concept again, which for much that I also praise the Hornet's cockpit, avionics, HOTAS, and weapons employment logic, I think the F-16 does have a more refined way on those;

... also I'm still waiting for the spot / scan functions for the AIM-9. 

 

Having said that, thank you ED for keep improving the F-16.

The AI in DCS is by necessity using very different rules when flying and obeying laws of physics. The Hornet is one of the best dogfighters in DCS right now and very hard to beat when no pylons are present on the wings AND bellow 10000ft, however when in the hands of an AI, it just rolls over and dies. Seriously, out of all the 4th gens in the game, it's by far the easiest to gun down. 

Also, on the topic of AI fighting, more pilot skill doesn't always equate to better. Especially for the modern planes. I don't have the free time to fly during the working week, so to deal with my DCS fix i setup small AI VS AI fights and just watch what is going to happen. A couple of nights ago, i setup an F-14 VS F-16 AI VS AI duel. Both planes timed to have almost the same time in burner. Set both AI's to ace. Then i let them fight. Outcome - draw. They ran out of fuel. Actually the Viper ran out of fuel a bit faster, but not by much. Changed skill level to veteran. Again -draw. Changed Viper to Ace, Turkey to Veteran, Turkey wins. And the other way around. It seems that, for modern planes, a Veteran skill level will give you better performance out of the AI. Contrast this with the F-86 and the MiG-15, which actually fight better at ACE. 

[b0bl00i]

8 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

The AI in DCS is by necessity using very different rules when flying and obeying laws of physics. The Hornet is one of the best dogfighters in DCS right now and very hard to beat when no pylons are present on the wings AND bellow 10000ft, however when in the hands of an AI, it just rolls over and dies. Seriously, out of all the 4th gens in the game, it's by far the easiest to gun down. 

Also, on the topic of AI fighting, more pilot skill doesn't always equate to better. Especially for the modern planes. I don't have the free time to fly during the working week, so to deal with my DCS fix i setup small AI VS AI fights and just watch what is going to happen. A couple of nights ago, i setup an F-14 VS F-16 AI VS AI duel. Both planes timed to have almost the same time in burner. Set both AI's to ace. Then i let them fight. Outcome - draw. They ran out of fuel. Actually the Viper ran out of fuel a bit faster, but not by much. Changed skill level to veteran. Again -draw. Changed Viper to Ace, Turkey to Veteran, Turkey wins. And the other way around. It seems that, for modern planes, a Veteran skill level will give you better performance out of the AI. Contrast this with the F-86 and the MiG-15, which actually fight better at ACE. 

Agreed! The AI is not aggressive enough, doesn't expend any energy to get a snapshot off. It flies like an AI, within parameters at all times (almost). I would love to see it jink, do risky high energy manouvers and be a bit more unpredicatable.  

[darkman222]

I have to agree. You cant measure any aircraft performance against AI. If you want to put an aircraft to a test, go on one of the dogfight servers. Try to rate fight against a human. It takes a lot of time and patience. Against an F15 its often the 8th or more full circles when the opponent gets impatient and bleeds his energy. Then you know its your chance.

Against a MIG29 AI, you also try to outrate him. But what he will do is go up and you often cant follow him. AI can bend the laws of physics for computing performance sake I guess. On the other hand it does not know how to jink. You can point your nose in lead on AI forever and it just does not care.

[Sideburns]

15 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

I have to agree. You cant measure any aircraft performance against AI. If you want to put an aircraft to a test, go on one of the dogfight servers. Try to rate fight against a human. It takes a lot of time and patience. Against an F15 its often the 8th or more full circles when the opponent gets impatient and bleeds his energy. Then you know its your chance.

Against a MIG29 AI, you also try to outrate him. But what he will do is go up and you often cant follow him. AI can bend the laws of physics for computing performance sake I guess. On the other hand it does not know how to jink. You can point your nose in lead on AI forever and it just does not care.

Afaik the AI uses simplified flight models for a lot, if not all, of the aircraft. The F5e AI does some nice moves/jinks when in the gunsights last I tried, but it does also cheat with energy

[captain_dalan]

It's not just the FM that makes the AI do what it does though. It just seems to fight according to one set of rules and that alone. The higher the difficulty setting, the harder the adherence to those principle. As different planes operate better in different regimes, this most often results in suboptimal use of the aircraft. MiG-15, MiG-21, F-5, F-86 benefit from this. F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, Su-27, MiG-29 do not. Or do so less. As mentioned above, the F-18 is in the least favorable situation here. 

[b0bl00i]

On 11/5/2021 at 2:30 PM, darkman222 said:

I have to agree. You cant measure any aircraft performance against AI. If you want to put an aircraft to a test, go on one of the dogfight servers. Try to rate fight against a human. It takes a lot of time and patience. Against an F15 its often the 8th or more full circles when the opponent gets impatient and bleeds his energy. Then you know its your chance.

Against a MIG29 AI, you also try to outrate him. But what he will do is go up and you often cant follow him. AI can bend the laws of physics for computing performance sake I guess. On the other hand it does not know how to jink. You can point your nose in lead on AI forever and it just does not care.

The AI is VERY much capable in that other sim. It's not about saving computer performance at all. 

[Hummingbird]

Latest ITR test @ SL

 

22,000 lbs, clean, 25% fuel (unlimited), ICAO std. day 15 C, sea level no wind:

 

Technique is simple, come as close to max sustainable load factor (Ps=0) as possible, but no further than just below it (or you'll just keep maintaining the same G, which I accidently did a couple times in the vid), then increase to full back stick and on the infobar (dont look at the HUD) note the true speed the last knot just before G ticks down in increments of 0.1 G at a time, then you have the lowest speed a certain G is attainable. 

 

I did the first 20 for you guys:

9.0 @ 432 KTAS / 0.653 M

8.9 @ 416 KTAS /  0.628 M

8.8 @ 409 KTAS /  0.618 M

8.7 @ 404 KTAS /  0.610 M

8.6 @ 399 KTAS /  0.603 M

8.5 @ 394 KTAS /  0.595 M

8.4 @ 388 KTAS /  0.586 M

8.3 @ 383 KTAS /  0.579 M

8.2 @ 378 KTAS /  0.571 M

8.1 @  373 KTAS /  0.563 M

8.0 @ 368 KTAS /  0.556 M

--------------

7.9 @ 363 KTAS /  0.548 M

7.8 @ 359 KTAS /  0.542 M

7.7 @ 354 KTAS /  0.535 M

7.6 @ 350 KTAS /  0.529 M

7.5 @ 345 KTAS /  0.521 M

7.4 @ 341 KTAS /  0.515 M

7.3 @ 338 KTAS /  0.511 M

7.2 @ 332 KTAS / 0.501 M

7.1 @ 327 KTAS /  0.494 M

7.0 @ 323 KTAS /  0.488 M

 

The rest you can note in the video yourself  

 

The above figures overlayed on the real life chart:

Spoiler

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Versor]

I don't know, I spend hours in BFM against the F-18. And i can't win with some good Hornet driver. I think the F18 is still too good. He recover his speed much faster than the Viper in many cases in BFM. He reach 40 kts on the top of vertical but few second later when he is going down he have 400 kts and in the same time in Viper i have 250kts going after him. Its really strange.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Versor

[sylkhan]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:43 PM, karasawa said:

F16 already outrates Mig29 after patch 2.7.2. Just noticed that.

F16 outrates Mig29 and F18 outrates F16 ..... hihihihi, this sim is so funny....

DCS : F18>F16>Mig29

Real life : Mig29>f-16>F18

Funny isn't it...

27 minutes ago, Versor said:

I don't know, I spend hours in BFM against the F-18. And i can't win with some good Hornet driver. I think the F18 is still too good. He recover his speed much faster than the Viper in many cases in BFM. He reach 40 kts on the top of vertical but few second later when he is going down he have 400 kts and in the same time in Viper i have 250kts going after him. Its really strange.

 

Correct, in DCS a good F-16 drivers can't beat a good F-18 driver in BFM

Edited November 6, 2021 by sylkhan

[SgtPappy]

2 hours ago, Versor said:

I don't know, I spend hours in BFM against the F-18. And i can't win with some good Hornet driver. I think the F18 is still too good. He recover his speed much faster than the Viper in many cases in BFM. He reach 40 kts on the top of vertical but few second later when he is going down he have 400 kts and in the same time in Viper i have 250kts going after him. Its really strange.

 

The issue is we don't have publicly-available information on the Hornet's performance. We have anecdotes that state it might not perform this well but we can't be sure.

[darkman222]

Game plan in a guns only fight agains a good F18 driver is: Hope he makes a mistake, if not: run, and reset the fight. And try again.

Gameplan in the F16 against the other fighters (with a good driver): Dont get shot until you are bingo fuel. Then fight a rate fight while your unfit pilot struggles to stay awake making some 9G turns.

Thats the way it is at the moment.

Edited November 7, 2021 by darkman222

[wilbur81]

4 hours ago, Versor said:

I don't know, I spend hours in BFM against the F-18. And i can't win with some good Hornet driver. 

 

Hmmm... sounds like real life. Some good Hornet drivers will beat some good Viper drivers some of the time. And if you're getting beat every time in BFM against the Hornet, you are either not a good Viper pilot (which I'm sure is not the case) or your opponent is squeezing that paddle switch ('cheating' in my opinion) in the Hornet. I would assume the latter. 

[Hummingbird]

2 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

The issue is we don't have publicly-available information on the Hornet's performance. We have anecdotes that state it might not perform this well but we can't be sure.

^Truth

[Hummingbird]

5 hours ago, sylkhan said:

F16 outrates Mig29 and F18 outrates F16 ..... hihihihi, this sim is so funny....

DCS : F18>F16>Mig29

Real life : Mig29>f-16>F18

Funny isn't it...

 

 

I'm not so sure.

Some good informative posts to read: https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53852

[karasawa]

6 hours ago, sylkhan said:

F16 outrates Mig29 and F18 outrates F16 ..... hihihihi, this sim is so funny....

DCS : F18>F16>Mig29

Real life : Mig29>f-16>F18

Funny isn't it...

Correct, in DCS a good F-16 drivers can't beat a good F-18 driver in BFM

 

In real life F-16 outrates Mig29 easily:

F-16 vs Mig-29 energy maneuverability from test report

https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=53852&sid=d512889651520c8eccc5e373de078a7f

Also from Lt Fred Clifton:

"If the F-16 pilot has the Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System and AIM-9X, the advantage is still with the Viper pilot as the off-boresight capability of the AIM-9X is significantly higher than the AA-11. If it comes down to a gun fight, I still give the advantage to the F-16. The F-16 sustains a high-g turn better than the MiG-29, has better outside visibility, is more responsive and easier to fly, rolls significantly faster and will out accelerate the MiG-29 like the Fulcrum was glued to the floor. The Fulcrum is a very sloppy-flying airplane. I'm not saying the Fulcrum is a push over; the Viper pilot needs to bring his A-game. The Fulcrum pilot better prosecute the merge pretty fast because he doesn't have the fuel to hang around very long.

While flying the F-16, I found the Su-27 to be a much more lethal BVR airplane with the exended-range AA-10C. The Flanker also has a very robust infrared search-and-track system that can also cause issues. You still have an advantage with the AMRAAM. You just have to be more cautious. In the visual fight, the Flanker is still impressive for an aircraft of its size. If the Su-27 is fairly heavyweight then it's a wallowing pig. If it has burned off some fuel, its nose-pointing ability a high angles of attack is impressive. So is its energy bleed off. If you can get him to give up some energy, I found it very beatable with the F-16. On the other hand, the Flanker is a lot like the F-15 - it's a maintenance nightmare."

Edited November 7, 2021 by karasawa

[karasawa]

The drag polar of F-16 and Mig-29 are published. It is very easy to calculate its sustained G's as various speeds. We can also calculate the energy bleed rate at various load factors. Not hard to find out which one retains energy better.