Jax37 Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 The issue is simply that the module does not seem to perform as it should. Testing different curves is merely a workaround. Why is the Viper feeling heavy and sluggish? Since so many things affects the flight model it's always best to correct the issue at it's core. "Dogfight: He who pulls the stick most violently shall win" [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] FSSB R3 Warthog - Cougar TUSBA - TPR - Valve Index - AW3418DW i7-6700K OC @4.9GHz - ASUS RTX 2080Ti - Trident Z CL14 32GB 3200MHz - M.2 950 PRO 512GB + MP510 1920 GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn8ke_iis Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 (edited) The FSSB is hands down the most precise joystick I have ever used. I feel like I'm an F-16 demo pilot at an airshow she handles so well. If you are willing to part with the funds it is worth it. Make sure you set the force differential curves in the FSSB software as you are naturally stronger with muscle flexion vs extension, i.e. tune so the force inputs are comfortable for your setup. I have mine set at a comfortable forward angle, but you can calibrate to compensate for the leverage advantage. I flew the F-16 the first day with my usual center mounted extension setup but the FSSB in sidestick configuration is so much better. That in combination with VR really fools your brain that you are flying a completely different plane with unique Fly-By-Wire characteristics. I haven't really used it much for other aircraft as I prefer the traditional center stick for those, but it's awesome for space sims. Edit: Can't remember the exact post but Wags said one of their SME pilots broke the Warthog stick mounted on an FSSB because he was used to putting so much more force on the stick in the real aircraft. I have it tuned for a lighter touch. Edited November 23, 2019 by Sn8ke_iis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=Panther= Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 Which version? Is it easy to set up etc? I'm considering it. R3 Lighting, rather simple imho. If you just want to use the plug and play, it is easy. If you want to use target still, you will need to take the pieces out of the hawg. I went the plug and play option. Twitch Channel [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC | Sponsored by Thrustmaster Z390 Aorus Xtreme, i9 9900k, G.SKILL TridentZ Series 32GB, 1080ti 11GB, Obutto R3Volution, Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog, TPR, Cougar MFDs, FSSB R3L, JetSeat, Oculus Rift S, Buddy-Fox A-10C UFC, F/A-18C UFC, Tek Creations F-16 ICP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomTOTEN Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 Can't remember the exact post but Wags said one of their SME pilots broke the Warthog stick mounted on an FSSB because he was used to putting so much more force on the stick in the real aircraft. I remember hearing that too.. I think it might have been in a podcast interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will- Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 The issue is simply that the module does not seem to perform as it should. Testing different curves is merely a workaround. Why is the Viper feeling heavy and sluggish? Since so many things affects the flight model it's always best to correct the issue at it's core. to me this makes no sense. i have no curves on the f16. only have curves set for every dcs plane i own of 15 on the joystick x,y. Intel i9-9900K 32GB DDR4, RTX 2080tiftw3, Windows 10, 1tb 970 M2, TM Warthog, 4k 144hz HDR g-sync. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax37 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 (edited) Yes Will, that’s exactly the point :) The reason why people have to put curves in DCS is not that ED has simulated stick input versus control surface displacement incorrectly, but rather because sim pilots usually have light joysticks with small movement range and of course the lack real world forces on the pilot that gives the all so very important feedback. Ripping of the wings was not a common problem for real life Tomcat crews... Still following? The reason that you have not put a curve on the Viper is because it’s not very sensitive as it should be. If you have a more serious flight stick (for example heavy to give full inputs on) that becomes very apparent. Sure I could just set a negative curve and be happy but that doesn’t fix the fact that there probably is something that needs to be tweaked by ED. For example, maybe they have the CG in the wrong place, requiring higher elevator displacements to rotate during take off. Or maybe the same reason why it underperforms versus the Hornet at sustained turn rate due to drag from excessive elevator outputs. The last part was only an example why it’s important when dealing with simulations, to find the root cause of problems and not apply superficial fixes to the symptoms. I hope that clears it a bit :) Edited November 24, 2019 by Jax37 "Dogfight: He who pulls the stick most violently shall win" [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] FSSB R3 Warthog - Cougar TUSBA - TPR - Valve Index - AW3418DW i7-6700K OC @4.9GHz - ASUS RTX 2080Ti - Trident Z CL14 32GB 3200MHz - M.2 950 PRO 512GB + MP510 1920 GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flia Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 I agree with JAX37. Something must be tweaked or cutstomised for DCS. When i flying with F-16 it doesnt feel right. Its very unresponsive and not fun to fly. Compared to Hornet F-16 flys like a airliner. PC: i7 9700K, 32 GB RAM, RTX 2080 SUPER, Tir 5, Hotas Warthog Throttle, VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Base with VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Grip, VKB-SIM T-RUDDER PEDALS MK.IV. Modules : NEVADA, F-5E, M-2000C, BF-109K4, A-10C, FC3, P-51D, MIG-21BIS, MI-8MTV2, F-86F, FW-190D9, UH-1H, L-39, MIG-15BIS, AJS37, SPITFIRE-MKIX, AV8BNA, PERSIAN GULF, F/A-18C HORNET, YAK-52, KA-50, F-14,SA342, C-101, F-16, JF-17, Supercarrier,I-16,MIG-19P, P-47D,A-10C_II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking 1-1 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 (edited) For all the guys that think, the Hornet flies like a jet: Fly the Tomcat, then you know what flying a jet feels like! BTT: For me the Viper is much more agile and more aggressive than the Hornet. So I have no issues like some of you guys have. Edited November 24, 2019 by Viking 1-1 Before you call everything a "bug": RTFM & try again! Thank you. :music_whistling: I9-9900k, 32 GB RAM, Geforce RTX 2080 TI, 128 GB M2 SSD, 1 TB SSD, Track IR, Warthog Hotas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamin_Squirrel Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 I agree with JAX37. Something must be tweaked or cutstomised for DCS. When i flying with F-16 it doesnt feel right. Its very unresponsive and not fun to fly. Compared to Hornet F-16 flys like a airliner. Your setup is wrong, or you're flying it wrong. Either that, or you've gotten used to the nose pointing authority of the Hornet and expect the Viper to do the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oceandar Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 For me its the opposite. The Viper feels more agile than the Hornet and I dont alter any axis on my TM Warthog. Its pure from ED's oven and it works pretty well so far. Its probably just a matter of getting used to Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power. - Lao Tze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flia Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 So i must test and compare hornet and viper flying performance even more. Maybe my opinion is wrong. PC: i7 9700K, 32 GB RAM, RTX 2080 SUPER, Tir 5, Hotas Warthog Throttle, VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Base with VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Grip, VKB-SIM T-RUDDER PEDALS MK.IV. Modules : NEVADA, F-5E, M-2000C, BF-109K4, A-10C, FC3, P-51D, MIG-21BIS, MI-8MTV2, F-86F, FW-190D9, UH-1H, L-39, MIG-15BIS, AJS37, SPITFIRE-MKIX, AV8BNA, PERSIAN GULF, F/A-18C HORNET, YAK-52, KA-50, F-14,SA342, C-101, F-16, JF-17, Supercarrier,I-16,MIG-19P, P-47D,A-10C_II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Part of the problem is the G onset rate which atm is too low above 7 G's, i.e. it slows down too soon and as such creates an unwillingness to hit 9 G's at corner speed as a result. Furthermore you should be able to hit 9.3 G's in the horizontal. But ED has said they're working on this, so I'm not too worried about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schurem Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 And what about roll rate? Is that correct or is it stuck in cat III? I5 9600KF, 32GB, 3080ti, G2, PointCTRL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoked Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Yeah this entire the jet handles like crap out of the box mentality is non productive. I have yet to have one DSC module that I did not have to adjust my rates or curves on. Every jet handles different and my setup has to be adjusted for it. Its just part of life. I have the FSSB as well and can tell you after I have spent sometime making adjustment in the FSSB software the Viper handles the way I imagine it would. I can fly form with it by fingertip and its roll and pitch authority is spot on. You have to spend sometime with these modules and get them dialed in. Each jet is going to be different, and each physical joystick is going to be different on what rates and throws it introduces.. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] V55th FS | 55th DiscordViper pit Discord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamin_Squirrel Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 You have to spend sometime with these modules and get them dialed in. Each jet is going to be different, and each physical joystick is going to be different on what rates and throws it introduces.. Good list, to which I'd also add: personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosmonkey Posted November 25, 2019 Author Share Posted November 25, 2019 For what it's worth, I did add (subtract?) negative curvature to both roll and pitch axis and it did make quite a difference. Much closer now to what I imagined. Might be just a band aid but it's much more fun to fly this way. I'm sure the flight model will be tweaked as the module progresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supmua Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) Handles like an airliner I’m using Realsimulator’s F-16SGRH stick and FSSB R3L base. This combo is pretty much made for the Viper module—and more. I use no curve in DCS setting. There are tons of parameters you can adjust on the R3L base, especially the amount of force input needed to make things behave the way you want. I have no real world experience but I can tell you that with proper adjustment the Viper is much more responsive than the Hornet, at least on my setup. Edited November 25, 2019 by Supmua PC: 5800X3D/4090, 11700K/3090, 9900K/2080Ti. Joystick bases: TMW, VPC WarBRD, MT50CM2, VKB GFII, FSSB R3L Joystick grips: TM (Warthog, F/A-18C), Realsimulator (F-16SGRH, F-18CGRH), VKB (Kosmosima LH, MCG, MCG Pro), VPC MongoosT50-CM2 Throttles: TMW, Winwing Super Taurus, Logitech Throttle Quadrant, Realsimulator Throttle (soon) VR: HTC Vive/Pro, Oculus Rift/Quest 2, Valve Index, Varjo Aero, https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300065-varjo-aero-general-guide-for-new-owners/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strong05 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 If you want to keep the response linear, you can just change the saturation of the x and y axis's. I moved mine to 40-50% and it made it much better (I also have an extension on my stick). 5800X3d, 32GB DDR4@3400, 6800 xt, Reverb G2, Gunfighter/TMWH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exorcet Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Since the F-16 came to the stable branch I finally got around to installing it. It's very agile, the default setup is a bit different from some other DCS aircraft though. The plane barely responds to small control inputs. I tend not to mess with curves and just fly aircraft as they come, the F-16 takes a little getting used to, but in one day I'm already doing better in it than in the F-18. Awaiting: DCS F-15C Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFJackBauer Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 can't imagine there are too many home cockpit force sensing sticks out there. How would you even simulate that? Its out of production for a long time though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syndrome Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Your setup is wrong, or you're flying it wrong. Either that, or you've gotten used to the nose pointing authority of the Hornet and expect the Viper to do the same? Serious question from a new player: How do you fly an F-16 and get more than 18.5 deg/s sustained turn rate? I'm not saying the F-16 isn't fun to fly, but this turn rate seems pretty average for DCS jets, maybe even a little below average, and not particularly special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamin_Squirrel Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 No idea. Certainly doesn't fly like an airliner though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macedk Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 My airliner flies straight ;) OS: Win10 home 64bit*MB: Asus Strix Z270F/ CPU: Intel I7 7700k /Ram:32gb_ddr4 GFX: Nvidia Asus 1080 8Gb Mon: Asus vg2448qe 24" Disk: SSD Stick: TM Warthog #1400/Saitek pro pedals/TIR5/TM MFDs [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Vader Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 reviving this topic as I am also experiencing the same thing the OP is. When I move the F16 I experience a 1 second delay in response. Its as if there is a high deadzone in the middle of the flight controls. I need to apply -25-30 curve in order for it to feel anything remotely snappy. Fully loaded with bombs just forget about it... moves like a galaxy class starship. I have an x56 Rhino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution Theodore42 Posted April 13, 2022 Solution Share Posted April 13, 2022 speed? cuz if you're going 200 maybe it is like that but at 300 or 400 kts... I'm looking at a recording I did with the current flight model and after deflecting my stick it looks like I'm at 90 degrees after 20 frames at 60 fps. So it took 1/3 of a second to get to 90 degrees after full deflection. It shouldn't matter what the curve is because full deflection is full deflection. If there is too much travel in your joystick you can reduce the horizontal saturation in the axis settings. I used to turn saturation down to 80 for this very reason (my joystick has a lot of travel) but I got used to my new joystick and put it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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